Updating Parking Rules

Started by DonA2 • 27 replies • 2470 views

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DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

We are getting ready to update our parking rules. We are a 300 unit, single family home HOA. Our rules currently say no Commercial Vehicles and no trailers. First, I would like to know if anyone knows why "No Commercial Vehicles"? This seems to be the norm, but I'm curious as to why? We do have a few areas where on street parking is allowed. Could we say that no commercial vehicles are allow to be parked on the street overnight, but allow them in driveways? Or is it best just not to allow them to be parked in the community at all?

Also, we want to try to define trailers a little better. Most homeowners don't seem to have a problem with the smaller utility type trailers being parked in people's driveways, but don't want large trailers, toy haulers or travel trailers parked in the driveways or on the street. So we are trying to expand on what trailers may be allowed and what's not. But we don't want to leave it up to the judgement of whomever is inspecting the property at the time as to what is allowed and what's not. Any ideas on what would be the best way to call out what trailers would be allowed and what wouldn't?

And just an fyi, I tried using the search function to see if any of this had been asked or discussed prior and it says the search function isn't working, so I apologize if this is a redundant question.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

You are attempting to disturb a rats' nest of issues.

? define commercial vehicle ? Virtually impossible for ANY HOA.

? define truck ? Virtually impossible for ANY HOA

Specify 'which trailer' is permitted ?

? Based on size ?

eg. 8' allowed - 8.5' thought to be parked

If you were to trespass on MY property in order to measure same you would be greeted by Mr. S and Mr. W

Like I stated, a rats' nest.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Don

My last association was very strict about commercial vehicles. Our docs said no overnight parking of any type commercial vehicle. This meant in your own driveway as we did not allow street parking. All homes had at least a two car garage and a driveway that would fit about 4 cars. One could park anything they wanted to in their garage. If the vehicle had a sign of any kind, ladders, etc, we ruled it commercial. Had one realtor with her company name on the lift gate window of her SUV. We ruled it commercial. Two identical vans. One had a small sign on the door saying Airport Limo Service, the other no signage. We ruled one commercial.

As far as trailers go, when is a trailer not a trailer? I say ban them all thus not subjective.

In my present HOA, garages were optional thus one has to be realistic about vehicle parking. All houses have a driveway/parking pad and as long as the vehicle fits on the pad, we say nothing. We also do not allow overnight street parking. We do not allow trailers of any type to be parked overnight in sight.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 11/25/2015 6:04 AM
You are attempting to disturb a rats' nest of issues.

? define commercial vehicle ? Virtually impossible for ANY HOA.

? define truck ? Virtually impossible for ANY HOA

Specify 'which trailer' is permitted ?

? Based on size ?

eg. 8' allowed - 8.5' thought to be parked

If you were to trespass on MY property in order to measure same you would be greeted by Mr. S and Mr. W

Like I stated, a rats' nest.

I'd rather take on a rats nest than do nothing and continue hearing complaints from homeowners.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

If you haven't already, take a poll among the homeowners and see what parking issues are causing the most trouble. You can include questions about trailers and commercial vehicles. Your property manager might also poll other HOAs similar to yours or you can talk to their boards to see how they've addressed the issue (there could be an idea or two you can adapt)

As to communities disallow trailers, I suspect size is a huge issue - they take up a lot of space and others would have trouble finding a place to park. Weight may also be a problem because trailers might tear up the street sooner, adding even more expense to the community. AS for commercial vehicles, appearance could be the problem - do you want your community to look like a strip mall parking lot?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Don,

From an article in the FL Sun Sentinel:

What are the real reasons for certain association rules?
Restrictions on commercial vehicles - Possible reasons: aesthetic concerns; size of parking spaces.

I think those are the main reasons.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

I'd rather take on a rats nest than do nothing and continue hearing complaints from homeowners.

What do your actual Covenants restrict ?

'Rules' may not impose restrictions not addressed by the Covenants.

'Rules' merely expound upon the Covenants.

Should a member complain about parking issues merely ask the member to state what Covenant is being violated.

Now, the membership may wish to vote on amending the Covenant.

Changing rules can, and oft does, become arbitrary and capricious; and have no authoritative basis.

Remember: Land of the Free, Home of the Brave

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonA2 on 11/25/2015 5:56 AM
. . . And just an fyi, I tried using the search function to see if any of this had been asked or discussed prior and it says the search function isn't working, so I apologize if this is a redundant question.

DonA2 (Arizona)

The issue gets sharper when customers & deliveries seem to coincide with overnight/weekend parking of a vehicle with some commercial identifiers. Or when the overnight parking is by school buses, service vehicles bearing ladders etc. . . Or when a road association tries to limit soft roadbed damage to its unpaved private roads during spring "shoulder season".

But not so easy when civil liberties issues may be triggered after many consumers shift to trucks or vans used for personal non-commercial use. Worth a look at - among others - :

1 - HOA http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/190162/view/topic/Default.aspx

2 - Truck-owner throws in the towel/sells ( Kimry Moor private use truck war Syracuse NY ) Aug 20/15 “CNY couple who couldn't park their pickup in driveway has had enough; they move out” http://www.syracuse.com/ news/index.ssf/2015/08/couple_sued_over_parking_pickup_in_cny_driveway_says_the_pressure_forced_us_to_m.html

3 - “WHEN ARE COMMERCIAL TRUCKS “COMMERCIAL?” by Jan Bergemann http://www.hoa-condoblog.com/JBBlog71213.html

4 - TAMPA truck war : Visible parking wars also contains Florida’s judicial preference for LESS RESTRICTIVE alternative burdens :

Eagles Master Assn Inc v Vizzi (2008) – Upheld on appeal in 2010, Florida Circuit Court rejects motion by Master HOA to enforce 1987 ALL VISIBLE TRUCKs & VANS parking BAN against what winning defendants claim is a NON-COMMERCIAL ‘personal use’ Ford F-350 truck, which it claims should be allowed to be VISIBLY PARKED as permissible under sandwich HOA CCRs .where not commercial.

http://floridacondohoalawblog.wp.lexblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/263/2010/03/vizzi-summary-judgment-order.pdf

Attorney Poliakoff's review : Poliakoff ‘s comment : : http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120701/BUSINESS/307010010/Condo-Q-Court-s-ruling-prompts-covenants-question

5 - Missouri Ct of Appeals #70105 issued Dec 17/96 MARYLAND ESTATES HOMEOWNERS' Assn v. PUCKETT & Schallert

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19961154936SW2d218_11114.xml/MARYLAND%20ESTATES%20HOMEOWNERS%27%20v.%20PUCKETT

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

erratum above : # 1 should merely be

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/190162/view/topic/Default.aspx

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

I should add the the streets are private and not public (I know, small detail...)

But thanks to everybody for their input so far...

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

HOA's are not a "one size fits all", nor should the CCRs that go with them be either. The vast majority of CCRs placed on HOA's are canned or generic rules. Condos are different than townhouses, which in turn are different than detached homes. The actual foot print of a home makes a huge different in how parking rules can be laid out.

In eight years living in a 317 detached SFR community, I saw the type and number of vehicles parked change. I would attribute much to the economy as more and more kids were moving back with parents and more and more units became rentals. For whatever reason, rentals tend to have more cars.

I didn't like the issue of commercial vehicle and didn't enforce the rule. The Board didn't see it as a problem and our first concern was making sure people paid their assessments on time.

I might suggest doing a survey, using something like Survey Monkey (which is free) to get a sense of what the community is interested in.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

to repeat:

easy ... no 'thinking' involved

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonA2 on 11/25/2015 5:56 AM
We are getting ready to update our parking rules. We are a 300 unit, single family home HOA. Our rules currently say no Commercial Vehicles and no trailers. First, I would like to know if anyone knows why "No Commercial Vehicles"? This seems to be the norm, but I'm curious as to why? We do have a few areas where on street parking is allowed. Could we say that no commercial vehicles are allow to be parked on the street overnight, but allow them in driveways? Or is it best just not to allow them to be parked in the community at all?

Also, we want to try to define trailers a little better. Most homeowners don't seem to have a problem with the smaller utility type trailers being parked in people's driveways, but don't want large trailers, toy haulers or travel trailers parked in the driveways or on the street. So we are trying to expand on what trailers may be allowed and what's not. But we don't want to leave it up to the judgement of whomever is inspecting the property at the time as to what is allowed and what's not. Any ideas on what would be the best way to call out what trailers would be allowed and what wouldn't?

Don,

It sounds like you are going where you should not go. You refer to "our rules" as opposed to our CC&R's or our declaration. This is a big problem as Arizona courts have already ruled that you cannot impose restrictions on how property may be used by any document other than the declaration. See Wilson v. Playa Serrano at http://caselaw.findlaw.com/az-court-of-appeals/1485688.html

The next problem is defining the term "Commercial Vehicle." There seems to be no universally recognized definition for this term, so you must define it in such a way that there is no dispute as to what is and what is not a commercial vehicle.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

to re-repeat:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 11/25/2015 2:05 PM
to repeat:

easy ... no 'thinking' involved

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

Thanks for all the input. And I have reread our CC&R's and think I have all the answers I need now.

Per our CC&R's, all commercial vehicles are restricted. That's pretty much all I need to know.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Don

It will be a rat's nest defining a commercial vehicle.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 11/30/2015 6:22 AM
Don

It will be a rat's nest defining a commercial vehicle.

Maybe so, but we're going to at least have to try.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

? Are light trucks commercial vehicles ?

beware the answer to above question, it will make the rat's nest appear simple

? Is a 3.5 ton HumVee used for family transportation a commercial vehicle ?

? Same truck used occasionally to deliver 'Mary K' products ?

best of luck

and

HOLIDAY CHEER

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Don,

Before concluding that your CC&R's cover everything, you might want to see if you can find the Florida case of Eagles Master Association v. Vizzi. My reading of that case is that the association spent close to a quarter-million dollars to prevent a resident from parking his pickup truck in his driveway. The association lost and was ordered to pay the homeowner's legal fees. Total loss to the association was about a half million bucks.

But do not let either the law or reality impede your war on your neighbors.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 11/30/2015 8:39 AM
? Are light trucks commercial vehicles ?

beware the answer to above question, it will make the rat's nest appear simple

? Is a 3.5 ton HumVee used for family transportation a commercial vehicle ?

? Same truck used occasionally to deliver 'Mary K' products ?

best of luck

and

HOLIDAY CHEER

If that light truck has a business name on the side of the truck, in the window, or anywhere, then yes, commercial. Same with the HumVee. If not, then no. The same with any other vehicle. If they have a business name on them, we would consider them a commercial vehicle, whether electrician or real estate agent, house cleaner, whatever. No name, no problem. At least I think that is how the board is leaning at this point. It is still under discussion and everything people have posted here is definitely helping.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

If that light truck has a business name on the side of the truck, in the window, or anywhere, then yes, commercial.

Does a 'sticker' or 'plaque' from the selling dealer count ?

A member's union affiliation sticker ?

A doctor's MD plates ?

A Brembo Brake or other 'hot rod' advertising sticker ?

Any aftermarket part sticker ?

How about a Cadillac Escalade Pick-Up truck NOT actually used for a commercial enterprise ?

How about a Cadillac Escalade Pick-Up truck actually used for a commercial enterprise ?

How about a passenger vehicle registered with commercial plates SOLELY for parking purposes ?

How about a HERTZ or ALAMO rental passenger vehicle ?

I am sure you get the drift.

Keep banging your head, it will feel SOOOOOOOO good when you stop.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Don

Here is a link to Wikipedia and their definition of "commercial vehicle" as your first post labeled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_vehicle

Not sure you want to go to court with these published definition, whether completely accurate or not. I am afraid your association just could lose. Look at Larry's reference to Eagles Master Association v. Vizzi. The only people that won are the attorney's for both sides and the association (predictable) lost.

It's a sad day when plumbers, electrician's, real estate agents, etc live in an association, pay their dues ON-TIME and are treated as such.

What happened to plain common sense.

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

I didn't write the CC&R's. And I personally could care less if commercial vehicles are parked in the community. But I have homeowners asking me why it's ok for some vehicles to be parked in the neighborhood, but not others. And since our CC&R's call out no commercial vehicles, I feel we have to address it in some way. Are we to ignore this part of the CC&R's but try to enforce other parts of it?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonA2 on 11/30/2015 1:43 PM
I didn't write the CC&R's. And I personally could care less if commercial vehicles are parked in the community. But I have homeowners asking me why it's ok for some vehicles to be parked in the neighborhood, but not others. And since our CC&R's call out no commercial vehicles, I feel we have to address it in some way. Are we to ignore this part of the CC&R's but try to enforce other parts of it?

Eagle Masters tried, as well as others, and, well, it didn't go well for them.

I lived in and was president of an association very similar to yours. Use common sense. If you want them out the streets, fine. Create a rule saying parking that vehicle only in their driveway.

Also look at the courts now. They tend to go again HOA's more and more because they think they are becoming their own little governments.

Forewarned is forearmed.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DonA2 on 11/30/2015 11:04 AM

Don

In my last HOA we also said any lettering made it commercial no matter anything else. We had one realtor with a Ford SUV (same model I drove) that had the agency and her name, phone, etc. lettered on the tailgate window. Was a commercial vehicle to us.

We also drew the line at anything hung off the sides of any vehicle like ladders, tool boxes, etc. Toolboxes inside the bed were not commercial.

You could have had a big old Ford F350 with 4 rear wheels but as long as no lettering, racks, etc. to us it was not commercial.

We had one owner object to a police cruiser claiming it had lettering, so it was commercial. We ruled an exception for public safety vehicle. An ambulance driver/company appealed our ruling on it was commercial as it was a public safety vehicle. We ruled not a public vehicle but a private business.

We did allow anything parked in one's driveway during the day. Our restrictions were on overnight parking.

Welcome to the rats nest. Think long and hard.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Here's a 2005 Advisory Opinion from the Florida Attorney General which addresses the question of whether a police vehicle is considered a "commercial vehicle". The answer, at least in Florida, is a resounding "No".

DonA2 (Arizona)
Posts: 170

Posted:

My feeling is that if it's advertising for a business in a way that the vehicle could be considered a tax right off, then it's a commercial vehicle. Bumper stickers don't usually fall into that category, but a vehicle with a "wrap" would, permanent signage would, magnetic signage would, window decal covering the whole rear window would. So that's how we may start. But we are also thinking about sending out a a survey to the ownership to get more feedback from them on how they would like to see this enforced.

NinaR (Florida)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Our docs describe a commercial vehicle as well as a "truck", horse trailer etc. Read your docs to see what the description says. It should be in there.
FYI, ours says any vehicle that shows commercial marking, displays, signs. Trucks with a cargo capacity of one ton or more. We allow for police or other government vehicles only.

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