president not allowing a vote

Started by JoyceY2 • 27 replies • 2047 views

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JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Can a HOA president not allowing a vote if she can see the yes vote on the issue will only cause unfair treatment to many homeowners but benefit a few? Even if the somehow there is a loophole in the covenant may seem to allow putting up a privacy fence?

our covenant stated all connected area are common area. We are a tide townhome community. no fences has been allowed since the existing of the community. 12 years ago. Couple new board members want fence in their back yard and they are pushing the board to allow that.

We are a closed community, I can only imagine all kind of usage people will do inside a privacy fence. I can also imagine the bad smell of dog poop. They keep saying HOA can set up rules to regulate that but it is just easier to say than done. these board members may just drop out of the board as soon as they get their fence and the rest of the board need to deal with all the complains and such. I also think it will disrupt the uniformity of the community. They said we already allow extension of the patio, why not the privacy.

any advise?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

We are a closed community, I can only imagine all kind of usage people will do inside a privacy fence.

I'm not sure what you mean by closed community. Perhaps you mean gated.

I also can imagine the kind of useage people will do inside a privacy fence, as I live in a town home community where everyone has privacy (6 foot, stockade) fences. Based on my experience, these things include:
back yard bar-b-que
playing games as a family
plant a garden (flower or vegetable)
plant a tree
set up tables and chairs
play with pets

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

I can also imagine the bad smell of dog poop.

Actually, it's more likely that they will pick up the dog dirt if it's in their own back yard then leave it for someone else to pick up.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

They keep saying HOA can set up rules to regulate that but it is just easier to say than done.

It's true some simply don't want to do the work.

Perhaps you can write a draft policy of rules and regulations about pets and present it to your board. I've found many are willing to approve something that is already done then do the work themselves.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

these board members may just drop out of the board as soon as they get their fence and the rest of the board need to deal with all the complains and such.

Yep, there are individuals who run for a position on the Board in order to get a specific issue resolved in the way they think it should be resolved. Rarely do they resign after that is achieved. They may decide to not run again and serve another term, but most will typically serve the time they agreed to serve.

Joyce, are you currently serving on the Board?

If you are, then you know that every decision a Board makes will typically draw criticism and complaints from someone (i.e. you can't please everyone).

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

They said we already allow extension of the patio, why not the privacy.

That's a good question.

Are you one that has extended your patio?

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

any advise?

Since your concerned about complaints and suspect that it's only a few how about kicking the vote to the membership or simply taking a poll of the membership to truly see how the members feel about the issue (vs. simply guessing or believing everyone feels the same you do)?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/13/2015 8:34 PM

Can a HOA president not allowing a vote if she can see the yes vote on the issue will only cause unfair treatment to many homeowners but benefit a few?

Forgot to reply to the initial question.

If this was a Board meeting/vote and the motion was properly made and seconded, then no - the President can not prevent a vote from happening.

If this is a membership/annual meeting and the issue was not announced ahead of time, then yes - the President can and should prevent a vote from happening as not everyone was informed about it, and that could alter the outcome and open the decision up for legal challenges.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Joyce

When you say no fences have been allowed is this because the Covenants say none are allowed, none have ever been approved, tradition, etc? What has or is stopping people for erecting fences?

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

when the builder first sold the house, they put in fence per buyer's request. We have worked hard to have them to take in down. put lien on their house. one neighbor has to endure bad smell for two years. no they don't pick up the dog poop. they use it as dogs toilet. that neighbor cannot go out of her patio.

the covenant clearly say all connected common area cannot be private used. if the fence is a good thing, why don't we have it in the covenant in the first place.

A townhome community its value by being nice and uniform. After 12 years, the community still maintain high value because that. if we allow fence. would it put other homeowners who has no fence feel unsafe. what stop other homeowner to put up things that make the whole community looks like a trailer park

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

all connected area is common area. The former board see that fence will be very difficult for the association to maintain the uniform appearance of the community. we don't approve fence. now the new board members want their own privacy want to put up fence.

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

when the builder first sold the house, they put in fence per buyer's request. We have worked hard to have them to take in down. put lien on their house.

Well, the Assocaitions option are to foreclose on the lien or take the issue before a judge.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

one neighbor has to endure bad smell for two years. no they don't pick up the dog poop. they use it as dogs toilet. that neighbor cannot go out of her patio.

Well that may simply be an issue between neighbors.
That one individual might want to consider calling animal control about the issue and see what they have to say.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

when the builder first sold the house, they put in fence per buyer's request.

Expecting that the builder was still in charge of the Association at the time they sold that lot, then an argument can be made that the Association approved the fence and, if the Association wants it removed,they would need to pay for it. However, since it was approved (by the builder ran Association) there are whole other issues involved as well.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

the covenant clearly say all connected common area cannot be private used.

The same argument can be utilized against the Association allowing extension of patios (expecting that the patio is privately used). If you can't enclose common area, members certainly shouldn't be allowed to pave (pavers, concrete, etc.) over common area for exclusive use.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

if the fence is a good thing, why don't we have it in the covenant in the first place.

Poor argument.

Fences might not be mentioned for various reasons:
Oversight. Poorly written documents. Didn't expect it to be an issue.

Keep in mind that, per your posting, it appears the Developer/Association already has chosen to allow fences. It's hard to unring that bell.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

if we allow fence. would it put other homeowners who has no fence feel unsafe.

Poor argument.

If you don't allow fences does it make all homeowners feel unsafe?

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

what stop other homeowner to put up things that make the whole community looks like a trailer park

proper enforcement of the covenants as written, not enforcement based on individual tastes.

BTW: Some trailer parks are very nice and can make some Associations look bad.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

all connected area is common area.

I suspect that there are some exceptions, for example patios. Additionally, without looking at surveys and PLATs, saying all connected ares are considered common area may be over simplyfing the issue. The devil is in the details.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

we don't approve fence. now the new board members want their own privacy want to put up fence.

Yep, different Boards have different views, opinions and personal tastes. This is why it's important to follow the governing documents as written.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 7:52 AM

Since your concerned about complaints and suspect that it's only a few how about kicking the vote to the membership or simply taking a poll of the membership to truly see how the members feel about the issue (vs. simply guessing or believing everyone feels the same you do)? good idea. can the president request that to be done even thought it is only one vote.

That is a decision of the board. Not of any individual on the Board. Board decisions are made by majority vote. However, the President can certainly make such a motion and see what the Board has to say about it.

Joyce, you never answered my question. What is your role in this?
Are you currently on the Board, a spouse of a current Board member, a former board member who disapproved requests or simply an interested member of the Association?

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

well actually, the builder did not allow the fence. it was a worker put it up as a side job of his own.

you are corrected. I should not use trailer park as example. this is my mistake.

yes, I am on the board and yes I am the president

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

we call animal control but they are no use because they say it is private property.

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

we have 248 houses. I can imagine only a handful will have the means to put up a fence. many are renter as well. in this case, more people will feel unsafe
we are setting up neighborhood watch.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Joyce,

Who installed the fence doesn't matter.
The question would be, did the builder approve it or not.
OR
Was the builder still in charge of the Association after that property was sold (as an argument can be made that the builder was most certainly aware of it, especially if one of their crew did the work (even if it was on the side))?

If the fence was approved, then the Association may be on the hook to pay for the removal. It would depend on documentation. If it becomes a he says you say argument, you will likely need to go to court to get it resolved. The owner may have a lot of arguments on their side especially if the fence was built prior to the purchase of the home or if it's listed in the buyers agreement. Additionally, if it has been 12 years, the owner may make a case for Laches.

How many are on your Board?
If there are only 2 who want the fence and it's a five member board, then the vote isn't an issue.

If it's a 3 member board, then I can understand your frustration and desire to, at least, delay the vote.

I think that a motion saying you don't think it would be unreasonable to take a poll of the membership concerning fences (and you can point to the one already built as an example) prior to voting. Have one of the members write a position paper on the pros of having fences and you write the position paper on the cons. Then send out a survey with the opinion papers asking for:
a) a yea or nay on allowing fences
b) comments, questions or concerns on the issue.
Provide a self-adddressed stamped envelope to encourage the survey to be returned.

We did this on decks. Had a 60% response (which is good for surveys) and discovered that the issue was evenly divided. Based on not having a majority for either side, the Board unanimously chose not to make any changes (and I was the one who supported the decks, made the survey, wrote the pro paper and tabulated the results and feedback and was part of the unamious vote).

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 9:18 AM

I can imagine only a handful will have the means to put up a fence.

Personal opinion.
Issues like this need to be settled on facts not opinions

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 9:18 AM

many are renter as well.

Not relevant.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 9:18 AM

in this case, more people will feel unsafe

Again, personal opinion not based on facts.
You could certainly include that question in your survey but to make such a generalization without having 125 lots you can identify as having the same opinion as yours is simply improper.

To be honest, I feel safer with a fence then without. It keeps loose animals (foxes, deer, loose pets, etc) away from my patio and allows an enclosed place for my children to play where I can keep a better eye on them.

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 9:18 AM

we are setting up neighborhood watch.

Great!

Not relevant to the issue.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 9:17 AM
we call animal control but they are no use because they say it is private property.

That can be a problem for gated communities.

You might want to try the health department - but that could be a stretch.

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

thank you. We all are trying to do good to the community. I believe all board members do as well. I am on the board since the beginning of the homeowner control HOA and have seem many things. I am not saying that I am great but many of them do know that I do try hard to be fair and follow the covenant. I will take your advise for a survey and I have written up two pages of cons about the whole things. as soon as the HOA turned over to homeowner, The management under the builder time informed us about that and wanted us to take the fence down. go figure that out!!!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

I would suggest to edit your cons to one page.

The pros should also be one page.

The longer the info the more likely people won't take the time to read it (or read all of it).

Again, stick to the facts and minimize opinions that can't be independently verified.

Also, the entire board should agree on what questions are asked in the survey along with the wording of the questions.

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

good point. I can use the same argument to the couple board member who keeps saying they feel safer with the backyard fences and the fence will increase the property value. I say it will decrease because we are destroying the uniformity of the community.

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

absolutely plus the board needs to pay for the surveys. :-)

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Actually, as for property values, it goes both ways:

Does putting a fence on your property, increase the value? from Zillow
Gives various opinions

Fencing Can Add Value To Your Home 2015 article in Realty Times. From the Article: "This does not mean that using any type of fence will tremendously increase the value of your home. . . .For a homeowner, the value of a fence may not be monetary in nature"

Maximum Value Outdoor Structure Projects: Fence From HGTV - in the article "A fence itself does not add as much value to the home when compared to material and construction costs."

Other info on fences:

What to Know Before Installing a New Fence

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

I think I am looking at the fact that we are a townhome community. neighbors are living close to each other. What one resident does, does affect their immediately neighbors or neighbor on the other side. homeowners's second floor can see their neighbors patio. I am very concern about the uniformity of the community and the execution of all the rules and policies that the board put up. This time is the fence, next time will be something else and there is no end to it and once the uniformity gone, it will never come back.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Joyce,

As I said, I am also in a town home community based on the colonial style.

Yes, by nature there is some uniformity. However, you also need to allow some individuality. This is where rules and guidelines come into play.

Keeping in mind that all exterior changes must be approved, we still allow paint color changes, door style changes, different color of window grids (due to so many grids being between the panes of glass now). We also allow garden and other flags along with small decorative objects. Our homes typically sell within the first month they are on the market. Therefore, these minor individual touches doesn't affect sales.

Again, all lots have fences except for one. Our documents are also silent on fences. However, they are allowed and the one lot who doesn't want one isn't required to get one. We keep uniformity by specifying the style, materials and height of the fences in our guidelines. However, we have had to modify that as well, because things change and we could no longer locate the width of pickets most had used.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago that the same arguments about property values and aesthetics were said about satellite dishes. However, satellite dishes are now the norm.

Now, the one thing that may be different in our community vs. your community is that we are all fee-simple homes (we are not considered a condominium). As a home owner, I actually own my home and the land it sits on. It may be different in your development (as town-homes can be classified either way depending on PLATS and the style of the town homes).

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

most of the change you mention have automatic approval in place. we even allow homeowner to remove the tree in front of their house and put another one or sod on it. We do understand that some homeowner are more artistic than others. Yes, we even allow the house paint color change within the set (set of color combination) and not affect the total outlook.
question: do you own the land inside your fence? I mean, you do actually own it and it is not common area in the first place.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 10:40 AM

question: do you own the land inside your fence? I mean, you do actually own it and it is not common area in the first place.

Yes

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

well then, this is the fundamental different between your community and ours.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

In my last townhome association (MA) we owned the ground under the building (3-4 vertical, multi floor townhomes per building) including the garage(s). Each unit had one or two decks (off the first floor) and they were private usage but on common ground. All else was common ground and the covenants said no structures, sheds, fences, etc. were allowed on common ground.

Personally, I am not a liker of fences unless all units have one and they are all identical. In my present, standalone, patio home association we all have identical privacy fences around our backyards.

JoyceY2 (Georgia)
Posts: 14

Posted:

thank you. I have learned a lot from all of you. I really appreciate it. sometimes it is hard to live in a HOA community but we will survive.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JoyceY2 on 11/14/2015 11:22 AM
well then, this is the fundamental different between your community and ours.

Which is what I said.

You are in a condominium complex and condominium association.

I am in a homeowners Association.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

JoyceY2,

What was the corporate attorney's proposed solution?

No attorney?

Get one ASAP!

Asking for legal advice on the www is like having oneself for a client.

FOOLISH

Y'all ARE a corporate business, albeit not-for-profit.

Begin acting in a businesslike manner.

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