HOA fining

Hello all,

Question;

I'm in Florida. My association has formed a fining committee. They are attempting to fine me for something that was installed on my property by the previous owner. They claim the object was hidden from view and is now not hidden so it must be removed within 30 days, otherwise I will be accessed a $100 per day fine up to $1000 and then they are threatening to sue me to collect. The object is useful and I cannot remove it without expense that may exceed the fine cap.

I could wait for them to come after me and try to drag me to court but there is a chance they could win or I could call their bluff and bet they won't sue as they only have $1500 per YEAR allocated for attorney's fees in the budget.

This may be an unusual question, but what if I was to just send them a check for $1000 up front and keep the object on my property in exactly the same location? I bet nobody has ever done this. The statutory cap in FL is $1000, so if I was to pay then what other recourse would they have?

MG,

In your previous thread you stated that you were a renter and not the owner. Is this still the case?

If you are still a renter, the issue isn't with you it's between the Association and the owner.

I have tried to work with them to re-hide what they don't like but they are unwilling to negotiate.

Governing docs do not specify fining procedure, that's why I'm referencing state law. Governing docs also do not provide for a fining committee.

Geno makes a good argument for not paying the fine, although that was not his intent.

If you pay the fine the HOA will just start fining all over again. If you do not pay, their $1,000 max fine remains standing as a barrier to additional fines.

The association is unlikely to sue given their limited legal budget. Even if they were to sue, there is no guarantee that they would win.

MG

What is the object?

Paying a fine does not make a violation go away.

MG5 - In FL a single family HOA can file a lien on your property for $1000 for accrued fines. A condominium association can not.
See 720.305(2)
(2) The association may levy reasonable fines. A fine may not exceed $100 per violation against any member or any member’s tenant, guest, or invitee for the failure of the owner of the parcel or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association unless otherwise provided in the governing documents. A fine may be levied by the board for each day of a continuing violation, with a single notice and opportunity for hearing, except that the fine may not exceed $1,000 in the aggregate unless otherwise provided in the governing documents. A fine of less than $1,000 may not become a lien against a parcel. In any action to recover a fine, the prevailing party is entitled to reasonable attorney fees and costs from the nonprevailing party as determined by the court.
(a) An association may suspend, for a reasonable period of time, the right of a member, or a member’s tenant, guest, or invitee, to use common areas and facilities for the failure of the owner of the parcel or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association. This paragraph does not apply to that portion of common areas used to provide access or utility services to the parcel. A suspension may not prohibit an owner or tenant of a parcel from having vehicular and pedestrian ingress to and egress from the parcel, including, but not limited to, the right to park.
(b) A fine or suspension may not be imposed by the board of administration without at least 14 days’ notice to the person sought to be fined or suspended and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee of at least three members appointed by the board who are not officers, directors, or employees of the association, or the spouse, parent, child, brother, or sister of an officer, director, or employee. If the committee, by majority vote, does not approve a proposed fine or suspension, it may not be imposed. The role of the committee is limited to determining whether to confirm or reject the fine or suspension levied by the board. If the board of administration imposes a fine or suspension, the association must provide written notice of such fine or suspension by mail or hand delivery to the parcel owner and, if applicable, to any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the parcel owner.
(3) If a member is more than 90 days delinquent in paying any fee, fine, or other monetary obligation due to the association, the association may suspend the rights of the member, or the member’s tenant, guest, or invitee, to use common areas and facilities until the fee, fine, or other monetary obligation is paid in full. This subsection does not apply to that portion of common areas used to provide access or utility services to the parcel. A suspension may not prohibit an owner or tenant of a parcel from having vehicular and pedestrian ingress to and egress from the parcel, including, but not limited to, the right to park. The notice and hearing requirements under subsection (2) do not apply to a suspension imposed under this subsection.
(4) An association may suspend the voting rights of a parcel or member for the nonpayment of any fee, fine, or other monetary obligation due to the association that is more than 90 days delinquent. A voting interest or consent right allocated to a parcel or member which has been suspended by the association shall be subtracted from the total number of voting interests in the association, which shall be reduced by the number of suspended voting interests when calculating the total percentage or number of all voting interests available to take or approve any action, and the suspended voting interests shall not be considered for any purpose, including, but not limited to, the percentage or number of voting interests necessary to constitute a quorum, the percentage or number of voting interests required to conduct an election, or the percentage or number of voting interests required to approve an action under this chapter or pursuant to the governing documents. The notice and hearing requirements under subsection (2) do not apply to a suspension imposed under this subsection. The suspension ends upon full payment of all obligations currently due or overdue to the association.
(5) All suspensions imposed pursuant to subsection (3) or subsection (4) must be approved at a properly noticed board meeting. Upon approval, the association must notify the parcel owner and, if applicable, the parcel’s occupant, licensee, or invitee by mail or hand delivery.
(6) The suspensions permitted by paragraph (2)(a) and subsections (3) and (4) apply to a member and, when appropriate, the member’s tenants, guests, or invitees, even if the delinquency or failure that resulted in the suspension arose from less than all of the multiple parcels owned by a member.

Be very very careful. Florida law most definitely allows an HOA to put a lien on single family housing.

I tend to agree with you (though I'm no lawyer) that they don't posess the right to levy a fine in the first place.

I went in front of the committee of 3 non board members and the property manager. The manager (who works for the management company) gave me a list of the reasons why the object had to be removed and said you have 30 days to remove it before we start fining you. When I asked a question I was cut off and shut down. There was no hearing. It was a dictation.

This appears to be a violation in itself
720.305
"(b) A fine or suspension may not be imposed by the board of administration without at least 14 days’ notice to the person sought to be fined or suspended and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee of at least three members appointed by the board who are not officers, directors, or employees of the association, or the spouse, parent, child, brother, or sister of an officer, director, or employee. If the committee, by majority vote, does not approve a proposed fine or suspension, it may not be imposed. The role of the committee is limited to determining whether to confirm or reject the fine or suspension levied by the board. If the board of administration imposes a fine or suspension, the association must provide written notice of such fine or suspension by mail or hand delivery to the parcel owner and, if applicable, to any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the parcel owner."

By the property manager being present at the meeting and guiding the committee to a decision this violated state law, correct? She is a employee.

There was also no majority vote or any vote of any type.

And the meeting was not limited to determining if the fine should be approved or denied, it was just a list of reasons why the object needs to be removed.

I say if the HOA wants it removed just allow them access to remove it. No fines. Simply let the HOA do their job in removing the violation they have a right to do. However, will warn you that the HOA could charge you the removal costs they incur. Which may be a cheaper option than paying fines. Don't know your objection of not doing it yourself.

Remember suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors... So I would take that in consideration before proceeding down that route....

But who is paying the dues to cover the lawsuits or the costs of the HOA lawsuit? Your dues... So your paying for your own lawsuit "win". Basically, it allows you to not have to participate in any special assessments levied against the rest of the owners if one is needed to pay off the "Win". Which is a good thing as you can't liened for not paying that special assessment. In other states, that is not necessarily the case. If you sue and the HOA has to assess the membership $100 in special assessment, you still have to pay that special assessment or be subject to a lien/lawsuit for it.

A HOA is ONLY funded by it's membership for it's membership. Suing it is using part of your dues money to cover such items. Even if it is written off as an insurance claim. It puts the HOA at risk of losing insurance or raising the cost of it. Do you really "win" in a lawsuit? Considering the court is also only allowed to make one "Whole" in any losses not a profit...

Look up "doctrine of laches, MG5. Could be the board waited too long to try to cure this violation.

Can we go back to this. While I may now agree that they can lien....it looks like the cutoff is $999.99 for no lien....I'm now questioning the ability to fine as its not specified or the word fine even mentioned in any of the docs.

Is there any case history showing where boards have lost in court over not having the ability to fine?

What if they don't have the ability to fine as its not stated in the docs?

MG

Were I on the BOD I would suggest we ask you to remove it. If you do not remove it, we fine you. If you still do not remove it, we haul you off to court.

Ask yourself is this worth fighting?

Also as a renter (2011) you posted issues with a BOD. Is this the same association? Are you always going to have "troubles" with a BOD?

How do you know that the previous owner did not get any notices? Did that info come from the previous homeowner or the HOA? You obviously knew the item was present when you purchased the house; did you know at that time that the item was not allowed?

They have been sending you notices for 2 years, since you purchased the house. They have preserved their right to hold your feet to the fire. They can say since it was hidden, they did not know about the violation until after you moved in. Your choices now seem to be to ask them for a variance and determine what exactly must you do to keep the item that will make them happy or remove the item. If you chose not to remove the item, then you will have to determine by your governing docs, what they can do to you punitive or restorative, to make you comply. They may be able to fine you, they may be able to come onto the property and cure the violation, or they may be able to both. Rules have little value without a way to enforce them.

Maybe I should start a new thread, but does anyone have an HOA "fining" schedule which is considered reasonable.
I am on the Board of an HOA with 67 houses built between 2008 an 2011 in Florida where the values range from $180K to $230K. Most residents are "fastidious" about the look of their property .... but we have a several that act like they live in a trailer park and ignore notices of covenant violations so we are going to start levying fines pursuant to Florida law.

When I do a search for "fines" on this forum, I do find many discussions including schedules for amounts but not amounts per type of violation. We want to be reasonable and avoid rapid stacking of daily fines for the same offense. We plan to send one "courtesy notice" .... then a "pre-fine" notice that gives violators 15 to 30 days to correct the violation and follow all appeals to a "fines committee" as required by law. For substandard yards (meaning little grass and almost pure weeds (we have four of them) we just ask for a plan of action and follow through. One resident is working diligently and the other three are "getting away with murder."

I note that most HOA's use a graduated schedule such as $25 for the first offense, $50 for the second, and the $100 legal maximum for the third. But I don't find much about different types of violations and their level of severity .... for fist offense:

Trash & recycle bins in plain view $25
Clutter on lawn: $25
Substandard yard: $25
Unkempt lawn (tall weeds, untrimmed bushes: $50
Home in disrepair $50

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks JerryD5, that is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for.

continuing on my original post;

if I'm on direct debit for monthly dues, can the HOA withdraw fines from my checking account without my authorization?

Yes this can happen when your documents say money collected first goes towards paying fines before being applied to dues.

Also all owners don't know when we fine a person. We try to be as private as possible about any fines assessed to any owner.

Actually fines don't have to be approved by the fining committee, only if the homeowner wants the hearing, which would occur after they are fined. If they don't want or don't attend a scheduled hearing, the fine remains.

The documents don't allow for fining.

So can they charge $100 per day or a one time charge of $1000 to my bank account without my authorization?

The OP is in violation of the Covenant / Contract.

The OP is unhappy with said fact.

The OP is twisting and squirming in an attempt to escape the contract.

After the HOA, Inc. stops fining and brings suit in court of law the OP possibly will be bankrupt and lose the home.

But, the OP would not have removed or remedied the violation as that would be too simplistic.