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JoyceB4 (Florida)
Posts: 1
Posted:
our declaration says "this declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by the owners of 67% of more of the lots". We the owners, got an instrument signed for 70%, but not inside a meeting because the covenant do not say that is necessary. It is this document legal enough to be recorded?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Based on what you provided, I would think that it can be.

You may want an attorney to look over the language of the amendment (in case it needs some legalize).

For an actual legal opinion, you will need to get that from a local attorney.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
If there had been a meeting, then one of the concerns would be whether 100% of the owners were notified in advance and had a fair and reasonable opportunity to object if they wanted to. If no attempt was made to contact all owners, the vote could be challenged ever if the 67% vote was achieved.

IMO, the lack of a meeting heightens this concern.

So I would hope that you reached out to everyone and documented what you did.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/20/2015 8:13 AM
Based on what you provided, I would think that it can be.

You may want an attorney to look over the language of the amendment (in case it needs some legalize).

For an actual legal opinion, you will need to get that from a local attorney.


I agree.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceB4 on 09/20/2015 7:22 AM
our declaration says "this declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by the owners of 67% of more of the lots". We the owners, got an instrument signed for 70%, but not inside a meeting because the covenant do not say that is necessary. It is this document legal enough to be recorded?

Yes, when filed with the county unless there is a state statute with which you did not comply. You could chose to check with your Managing Agent or with an HOA attorney.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Don't forget that once recorded, a copy must be provided (typically mailed or hand delivered) to the members. This is to be done within 30 days of recording the document.

See FL 720.306

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0720/Sections/0720.306.html
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoyceB4 on 09/20/2015 7:22 AM
our declaration says "this declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by the owners of 67% of more of the lots". We the owners, got an instrument signed for 70%, but not inside a meeting because the covenant do not say that is necessary. It is this document legal enough to be recorded?

My CC&R's have similar language. There is no requirement for a meeting. In my opinion, you should record the document(s) without further concern about how their legality.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Let me add something here.

My documents also have the same language, BUT in California, maybe Florida, in order to change the CCRs, it MUST be done by secret ballot voting, with proper notice to the membership and the votes must be counted at a properly noticed meeting.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/20/2015 11:08 AM
Let me add something here.

My documents also have the same language, BUT in California, maybe Florida, in order to change the CCRs, it MUST be done by secret ballot voting, with proper notice to the membership and the votes must be counted at a properly noticed meeting.

Richard,

Can you cite the provision in CA code that would effectively prohibit amendment by instrument even when that is the process called for (or allowed) in the CC&R's? The Davis-Sterling website does not clearly address this matter.

Do you think executing an instrument would qualify as a members' action without meeting?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 09/20/2015 12:04 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/20/2015 11:08 AM
Let me add something here.

My documents also have the same language, BUT in California, maybe Florida, in order to change the CCRs, it MUST be done by secret ballot voting, with proper notice to the membership and the votes must be counted at a properly noticed meeting.


Richard,

Can you cite the provision in CA code that would effectively prohibit amendment by instrument even when that is the process called for (or allowed) in the CC&R's? The Davis-Sterling website does not clearly address this matter.

Do you think executing an instrument would qualify as a members' action without meeting?


Again, the instrument in writing is what is used to record that, in our case, an affidavit that 2/3 of the voting power approved the amendment.

Generally, voting power is owners in good standing, not delinquent or have privileges suspended. Out of 10 homes, three are delinquent, but they sign along with four on the Board. Three others never got notice.

When I have recorded amendments to the CCRs for clients, I have an instrument, separate from the amendment and signed by the President and Secretary attesting to the vote.

I might be wrong, but I believe you have to give people proper notice and it should be by secret ballot, unless in our case. Florida, I believe, has similar regulations.

The question to the OP, did they have a vote on the matter?
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
I would say yes. "An instrument signed by..." is often a means of amendment that is available in addition to voting at a meeting. I think meeting votes normally require a board vote and a members' vote (with quorum and percentage conditions) while "an instrument signed" does not require a board vote.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/20/2015 11:08 AM
Let me add something here.

My documents also have the same language, BUT in California, maybe Florida, in order to change the CCRs, it MUST be done by secret ballot voting, with proper notice to the membership and the votes must be counted at a properly noticed meeting.

I think Florida works a bit differently. For consideration of amendments to the governing docs there's no requirement for secret ballots nor are there any extraordinary notice requirements.

Most language regarding amendments in FS 720 concerns recording, providing notice to owners after the amendment has been recorded, specifying a 2/3 majority requirement if the governing docs don't say otherwise, and a prohibition against an amendment altering proportionate voting interests (with a few narrow exceptions).
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/20/2015 12:37 PM

Again, the instrument in writing is what is used to record that, in our case, an affidavit that 2/3 of the voting power approved the amendment.


An affidavit by someone that alleges a proper vote was taken and approved is not the "instrument" contemplated in my CC&R's and not likely in the OP's. If the declarant meant to do that he would have said so. The OP's CC&R's state "instrument signed by the owners of 67% of more of the lots." That is certainly not a reference to an affidavit about a vote.

Quote:

Generally, voting power is owners in good standing, not delinquent or have privileges suspended.


So the board wants to cram an amendment down the owner's throats and levies fines against all owners but themselves. They pass the amendment with 100% approval.

In the OP's situation (and my own), ownership entitles one to sign or not sign and approval is a percentage of all owners, not just those whom the board allowed to vote.

I am curious if you know of any court opinions upholding restricting voting on CC&R's to only those owners that the board approves of; that is, those in good standing?

Quote:

I might be wrong, but I believe you have to give people proper notice and it should be by secret ballot, unless in our case. Florida, I believe, has similar regulations.


My own CC&R's and apparently the OP's do not require either notice or secret ballots. If 70% of the owners approve by signing the amendment, what purpose would an election serve?

BTW, one of the advantages of circulating an instrument is that it does not require board approval or board participation; any owner or group of owners may seek signatures from any other owner and they have all the time in the world to do it. The only hitch is that if one takes too long that some signatures may be invalid due to sale of the property.

If I were a judge I would be less than persuaded by being presented with an affidavit alleging that a sufficient percentage of owners had approved of an amendment if I their identities could not be verified and some owners were excluded from voting.

My question is still, does CA law prohibit amending CC&R's by means other than a secret ballot? Is that an exclusive requirement or are other means permissible if stated in the CC&R's?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I am meeting with an HOA attorney on Tuesday. I'll pose the question to him.

This has fraud written all over it, IMO.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'll wait to hear form you Richard. My own understanding is that in CA, secret ballots are required to amend the CC&Rs and also bylaws. But I'm not looking it up today.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 09/20/2015 2:02 PM
I am meeting with an HOA attorney on Tuesday. I'll pose the question to him.

This has fraud written all over it, IMO.


How could anyone seriously claim fraud by following the instructions for amending the CC&R's, especially where each and every owner who agreed to the change can be identified?

Holding an election with a secret ballot where only some owners get to vote and then attesting to the results by an affidavit is a process designed to encourage fraud.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The first phrase after (a) seems to say secret ballots are required in CA for amending CC&Rs. But we don't know about FL or other states. In CA, this means double envelopes with signatures & property address on just the outside envelope, 1 or 3 inspectors of election, and any member who a wants to can watch the opening of the envelopes & ballot tabulation. Absentee ballots are permuted in CA.

DAVIS-STIRLING ACT
Civil Code ยง5100. Elections That Require Secret Balloting.

(a) Notwithstanding any other law or provision of the governing documents, elections regarding assessments legally requiring a vote, election and removal of directors, amendments to the governing documents, or the grant of exclusive use of common area pursuant to Section 4600 shall be held by secret ballot in accordance with the procedures set forth in this article. [Old: Civ. Code ยง1363.03(b)]

Read more: Civil Code ยง5100 http://www.davis-stirling.com/MainIndex/Statutes/CivilCode5100/tabid/3783/Default.aspx#ixzz3mKpcwWmU
from Davis-Stirling.com by Adams Kessler PLC.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
The word "instrument" seems to be key in what the OP provided. What is it exactly and how was it obtained? If it was obtained outside of a special meeting or annual meeting, how did you notify the membership that you wanted to amend and if they had questions, or disagreed, how were they able to do that? If you walked the HOA and spoke directly to each HO, how did you collect the opposed "votes"?

It seems to me that if the instrument was obtained without following all of the gov. docs, you are trying to change the gov. docs without due process.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Joyce

I see two issues:

1. Is this signed document proper/legal?

2. Is the amended Covenant legal?

You will need a legal opinion on both before implementing.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CyrstalB on 09/21/2015 4:55 AM
The word "instrument" seems to be key in what the OP provided. What is it exactly and how was it obtained? If it was obtained outside of a special meeting or annual meeting, how did you notify the membership that you wanted to amend and if they had questions, or disagreed, how were they able to do that? If you walked the HOA and spoke directly to each HO, how did you collect the opposed "votes"?

It seems to me that if the instrument was obtained without following all of the gov. docs, you are trying to change the gov. docs without due process.

According to what the OP said, their Covenants/Bylaws say then it is entirely possible the "instrument" could be as simple as a petition. This will have to be checked.

Again if as the OP said, it takes 67% approval to make a change, it does not matter how many say no as long as 67% agree. The OP said they had 70% approval.

My main concern would be if the proposed amendment(s) are proper and legal versus what some think and/or want.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/21/2015 6:05 AM
Posted By CyrstalB on 09/21/2015 4:55 AM
The word "instrument" seems to be key in what the OP provided. What is it exactly and how was it obtained? If it was obtained outside of a special meeting or annual meeting, how did you notify the membership that you wanted to amend and if they had questions, or disagreed, how were they able to do that? If you walked the HOA and spoke directly to each HO, how did you collect the opposed "votes"?

It seems to me that if the instrument was obtained without following all of the gov. docs, you are trying to change the gov. docs without due process.


According to what the OP said, their Covenants/Bylaws say then it is entirely possible the "instrument" could be as simple as a petition. This will have to be checked.

Again if as the OP said, it takes 67% approval to make a change, it does not matter how many say no as long as 67% agree. The OP said they had 70% approval.

My main concern would be if the proposed amendment(s) are proper and legal versus what some think and/or want.

Yes, the main concern is whether they obtained their "instrument" legally as defined in their governing documents. And yes I agree that the other 30% wouldn't be relevant unless they in fact, chose to not follow the correct procedures.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I have attached a document which I did for an association. It was eventually signed by the President and Secretary of the association, notarized and recorded with the County of Los Angeles. The voting was done by secret ballot. Prior to going to vote, all the homeowners received the amendment, a meeting was held to answer questions and the results were properly recorded in the minutes and results and amendment were mailed to all homeowners.

Unless the OP comes backs and clarifies, we are all guessing. Was the amendment even legal, did the INSTRUMENT have 70% of the homeowners signatures, or just state that 70% approved. How was it actually approved and were ALL homeowners actually notified.Was it an amendment or a whole new set of CCRs. Were homeowners actually given a copy of the recorded document?

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Here is the attachment
๐Ÿ“Ž Attachments (1):

โธ Downloads temporarily unavailable

๐Ÿ“192153164271.doc(38 KB)
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
It still boils down to what FL law says about this topic. WE have a few posters from FL, whom I thought would chime in about FL statutes???
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Here's the language from my HOA's CCRs:

"This Declaration may be amended by the affirmative vote of a majority of the Board of Directors of the Association and the affirmative vote of the majority of Members who are voting in person or by proxy at a meeting of the Members at which a quorum has been attained (e.g., once a quorum of those Members attending in person or by proxy has been obtained at a regular/annual or special meeting of the Members of the Association, a majority of those Members attending the meeting in person or by proxy may amend this Declaration). Alternatively, this Declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by not less than a majority (i.e., 50% plus one) of the Members provided, however, that no amendment or change in these restrictions shall affect the ownership of residences or the rights of owners to parking areas, driveway and ingress and egress."

Florida statute 720 is largely silent on amending the CCRs for homeowners associations and leaves almost everything to the association's governing documents. It does place restrictions on changing the proportionate voting interests and has some other requirements where mortgagees have to sign on in certain specific cases.

What this says to me is that a homeowner can go door to door and, if he or she can gather 51 owner signatures, force an amendment to the CCRs regardless of any action or inaction on the part of the board. Assuming the change is legal, of course.

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