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BobW17 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
When I examine our county's official records in Florida, I have noticed that amendments to the HOA Bylaws never seem to be recorded as "standalone" documents. As far as I have observed, bylaw amendments are always recorded together as a group with the other two governing documents in hierarches order (Declarations First, Articles second, Bylaws third). Why do I never see amended Bylaws recorded as a "standalone" document. Is there any Florida law or ordinance that would prevent our association from recording our member approved "Amended and Restated Bylaws" from being recorded as a standalone document. We also (at the same time) want to record our recent membership approved "Amended Declaration of Restrictions." However, It seems to be common practice to record "Declarations" as standalone documents. I could record the new amended Declarations and the new amended bylaws together under one county instrument number, but we would prefer that each be recorded separately, each with its own unique recorded instrument number. Is there any problem with recording the new amended Declarations and the new amended Bylaws separately so that they each have their own unique instrument number? We have to record these two documents so any help would be appreciated.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Bob,

I am not familiar with Florida law but that would be the place to look for requirements as to what must be recorded.

Generally, Declarations are always recorded as they give notice as to the restrictions on real estate. I have never heard of recording Articles of Incorporation since they are already filed at the state level with whatever agency regulates corporations. I have been told that some states require recording bylaws but it does not seem to be a general practice where it is not required.

Personally, I am not in favor of recording bylaws. Aside from the cost of recording, I always feel there is a psychological barrier against revising recorded documents. That is, by recording the bylaws they become chiseled in stone and everyone is afraid to tamper with them. Once you start recording them, how do you stop? Finally, how your association conducts its affairs is really not the public's business.

BobW17 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
Thanks LarryB13. In Florida, all governing documents (Declarations, Articles, and Bylaws) must be recorded in the county public records. Our HOA members recently approved amendments to both the Declaration of Restrictions and the Bylaws. When I examine the county records in Florida, I have seen that the Declaration of Restrictions (CC&R) are often recorded as a standalone document. However, I have never seen the Bylaws recorded as a stand alone document. Bylaws are always recorded as an "Exhibit" to the Declaration of Restrictions (often referred to as the CC&R). I am just wondering why the Bylaws can not be recorded as a standalone document. Why must it be recorded as an Exhibit to the CC&R under the same county instrument number. Is this a Florida thing -- or do other states also require Bylaws to recorded an an exhibit to the CC&R ?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
By-laws are typically NOT required to be recorded. It is a courtesy and can be done with the CC&R's but NOT required. To give you the relationship those two documents have think of them this way. The CC&R's are the OUTLINE and the By-laws are the details. By-laws are more fluid changing documents and are exclusive to the HOA. That means that they are NOT considered "PUBLIC" documents like CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation. That means that they are not required to be disclosed until the person is a member. As they are directly for members only. The other documents are PUBLIC for potential buyer's education/awareness prior to becoming a member by purchase.

Former HOA President
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobW17 on 09/10/2015 1:59 PM
Thanks LarryB13. In Florida, all governing documents (Declarations, Articles, and Bylaws) must be recorded in the county public records. Our HOA members recently approved amendments to both the Declaration of Restrictions and the Bylaws. When I examine the county records in Florida, I have seen that the Declaration of Restrictions (CC&R) are often recorded as a standalone document. However, I have never seen the Bylaws recorded as a stand alone document. Bylaws are always recorded as an "Exhibit" to the Declaration of Restrictions (often referred to as the CC&R). I am just wondering why the Bylaws can not be recorded as a standalone document. Why must it be recorded as an Exhibit to the CC&R under the same county instrument number. Is this a Florida thing -- or do other states also require Bylaws to recorded an an exhibit to the CC&R ?

CC&Rs always needed to be recorded. Then in 1995, FL amended 720 and added the requirement that Articles and Bylaws also be recorded. I would guess that the practice of linking them all together with a single instrument number became the new standard that the FL recording offices decided to adopt.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GeorgeR8 (Arizona)
Posts: 182
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/10/2015 2:09 PM
By-laws are typically NOT required to be recorded. It is a courtesy and can be done with the CC&R's but NOT required. To give you the relationship those two documents have think of them this way. The CC&R's are the OUTLINE and the By-laws are the details. By-laws are more fluid changing documents and are exclusive to the HOA. That means that they are NOT considered "PUBLIC" documents like CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation. That means that they are not required to be disclosed until the person is a member. As they are directly for members only. The other documents are PUBLIC for potential buyer's education/awareness prior to becoming a member by purchase.

I would rather have people see them before they are a member and they do. Our bylaws are in the CD people get when they go to escrow, along with Articles of Incorporation, CC&Rs, Insurance info, and welcome letter.

When we changed our bylaws I recorded them. $29 and about 10 minutes at the Recorders Kiosk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
BobW17 Fla

Although your post cites a Fla HOA scenario & therefor ch 720 it may be that the titles offices prefer - ? as a matter of "Registrar's judgement" or policy choice ? - to ( over-) apply the following as if from Ch 718 condos :

718.112 By-laws
(1) (b) (b) No amendment to the articles of incorporation or bylaws is valid unless recorded with identification on the first page thereof of the book and page of the public records where the declaration of each condominium operated by the association is recorded. So true "free standing" as precluded there, may hint at past problems.

One concern may also be orphaned or incorrectly citationed By-laws.

( My jurisdiction has legislated the compulsory registration of condo By-laws since the mid 1960s, but not of mere condo Rules. Registration deems notice of what should have been read. I would be filled with dread as a condo buyer or lender to risk investing where condo by-laws are not a matter of public registration. However my own non-condo Building Scheme's CCRs are registered, but the thankfully voluntary HOA has nothing legal to be registered.)
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
NPS : In what section of Fla ch 720 were you able to find them ?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 09/10/2015 2:50 PM
718.112 By-laws
(1) (b) (b) No amendment to the articles of incorporation or bylaws is valid unless recorded with identification on the first page thereof of the book and page of the public records where the declaration of each condominium operated by the association is recorded.


This would imply that an amendment may be recorded without having to restate or re-record the entire package.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Not where what BobW17 Fla means by : "never seem to be recorded as "standalone" documents."

For Florida condo document registration, perhaps "718.112 - By-laws" may be intended to specify registering actually or digitally on the community's main Parcel Summary (abbreviated) ( or whatever the Florida equivalent roots ) ie as if recording it only as a 'family member' but not like something autonomous ). Also wonder where in ch 720 ?

By-laws may be important enough that some jurisdictions want them undisputably started at a community's roots, with a legal registration date('time of essence' etc ), and not risking mis-registered / missed during buyer or lender diligence.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
The catch is how much does it cost to "register" modified documents. In SC it is a simple one time $25 fee regardless of the amount of homes or modifications. We have our Covenants, Bylaws, and Rules & Regulations registered.

In some states the charge is much more to modify so best not to have all docs registered as it can get costly.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 09/10/2015 2:53 PM
NPS : In what section of Fla ch 720 were you able to find them ?


720.303 Association powers and duties; meetings of board; official records; budgets; financial reporting; association funds; recalls.—
(1) POWERS AND DUTIES.—An association which operates a community as defined in s. 720.301, must be operated by an association that is a Florida corporation. After October 1, 1995, the association must be incorporated and the initial governing documents must be recorded in the official records of the county in which the community is located.

720.301 Definitions.—As used in this chapter, the term:
(8) “Governing documents” means:
(a) The recorded declaration of covenants for a community and all duly adopted and recorded amendments, supplements, and recorded exhibits thereto;
(b) The articles of incorporation and bylaws of the homeowners’ association and any duly adopted amendments thereto; and
(c) Rules and regulations adopted under the authority of the recorded declaration, articles of incorporation, or bylaws and duly adopted amendments thereto.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Good digging by NPS. I tried but failed to find a relevant, simple Florida land registry law comparable to conventional stuff like a Land Titles Act etc, but its like cat-juggling. Looks very localized, entrepreneurial as ended here in 1850s.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
BobW17 Fla
Quote:
. . . amendments to the HOA Bylaws never seem to be recorded as "standalone" documents. As far as I have observed, bylaw amendments are always recorded together as a group with the other two governing documents in hierarches (hierarchical) order (Declarations First, Articles second, Bylaws third).

Why do I never see amended Bylaws recorded as a "standalone" document. . . Is there any Florida law or ordinance that would prevent our association from recording our member approved "Amended and Restated Bylaws" from being recorded as a standalone document(?) . .
we want to record our recent membership approved "Amended Declaration of Restrictions." . . . . we would prefer that each be recorded separately, each with its own unique recorded instrument number.

Just backing the tractor up for another try :

Florida's registration protocols & delivery may be sufficiently "localized" & entrepreneurally driven, that BobW17 Fla may be better to hire paralegal or legal skillsets to understand & actually record documents.

Couple of hundred bucks spent on an insured professional to reduce risk of chaos later ( see MRTA chaos even for professionals).

If "standalone" (whatever it means) might risk a by-law for example not telescoping - not being properly entrenched - within the hierarchy of registered documents to alert later users, then what's the upside ?

( If registration protocols are locally rather than state-controlled, I think I see one reason why conversion to a Torrens or land titles system was opposed, not just the upfront conversion expense. Respectfully, for users including DIYers, I think that once functioning a land titles system with guarantee & far shorter title search, is much easier than an historical document repository .)
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 09/10/2015 7:08 PM
720.303 Association powers and duties; meetings of board; official records; budgets; financial reporting; association funds; recalls.—
(1) POWERS AND DUTIES.—An association which operates a community as defined in s. 720.301, must be operated by an association that is a Florida corporation. After October 1, 1995, the association must be incorporated and the initial governing documents must be recorded in the official records of the county in which the community is located.

It does say that which I find most interesting because FS 720 didn't even exist prior to the year 2000. Perhaps it's leftover language from one of the other statutes.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobW17 on 09/10/2015 8:18 AM
When I examine our county's official records in Florida, I have noticed that amendments to the HOA Bylaws never seem to be recorded as "standalone" documents. As far as I have observed, bylaw amendments are always recorded together as a group with the other two governing documents in hierarches order (Declarations First, Articles second, Bylaws third). Why do I never see amended Bylaws recorded as a "standalone" document. Is there any Florida law or ordinance that would prevent our association from recording our member approved "Amended and Restated Bylaws" from being recorded as a standalone document.

After the initial Bylaws have been recorded, as per FS 720.303(1) I think that only amendments to the declaration must be filed with the county. Amendments to the Articles of Incorporation are usually filed at the state level. Amendments to the Bylaws don't need to be recorded. (FWIW my HOA records everything with the county anyway.)

There's no reason why amendments to any document can't be recorded on a stand-alone basis. I think it just works out on a practical basis that changes to one often mesh with changes to the others and it's just a matter of convenience to record everything at once.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
We have had one amendment in 2008 regarding rentals. It was recorded at the county clerk by itself. In the document, it clearly references the original Declaration of Covenants and Restrictions, and lists the book and page number. The Declaration is the first in the group of the 3 documents (Articles of Incorp and Bylaws). I have never seen this done differently for any other associations and in fact, it makes life easy not to have to look for these documents separately.
BobW17 (Florida)
Posts: 8
Posted:
I want to thank everyone who responded to my question regarding the recording of Bylaws as a stand alone document in the county records. I am amazed at the thoughtful response that I received. From averaging all the responses it appears that the HOA recording practice has taken a page from Chapter 718 (the condo statute) which requires the Certificate of Amendment for Condo Bylaws to make reference to the related (and highest rated) CC&R document. I can see why all the governing documents need to have someway to tie them all together in order to establish that they are related to the higher level CC&R document. I guess the practice in Florida accomplishes this by establishing the convention of recording all three governing documents under the same county instrument number. By the way, the Florida legislature just ruled that the Rules and Regulations can also now be officially referred to as the fourth member of the governing documents. I do not know if it needs to be recorded. Thanks again for all the grate inputs. BobW17
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
When the HOA started changing things the attorney filed the by-laws separately. It made many references to the covenants. I think they filed it at around the same time they amended the restrictions because the c&rs referred people to the Bylaws for details. All previous by-laws were never filed.

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