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Missing Reserve Funds - Atrocious Accounting - Reserve Study Errors - Denial of Records

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LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
I realize this post is quite long - but I think all of the information is relevant to see how bad Management Companies (MC) can be.

I don't know if the restricted reserve funds were actually stolen or more the result of sloppy bookkeeping.

Back in 2000, we had a crazed board that had secret meetings, only put into the minutes what they wanted and tried to put through a restatement of the declaration. When that didn't pass, they (with HOA attorney's help)took the homeowners to court to attempt to get it passed that way. Enough outraged homeowners objected to the court and it was dismissed. That board was fired (end of 2001)and the new board instituted an audit committee to look into some of the crazy spending that had been going on. For example, the old board had several new monument type entrance signs($27K+)with lighting installed. These were not budgeted for in the reserves - so where did they get the money to do this and so many other things that were not budged for?

I volunteered as part of that audit committee. We have 345 homes with about 48% traditional homes and 52% cluster homes. There is a base assessment for everyone and the clusters pay an additional amount for the repair and maintenance of the "private streets" that (per our declaration) is to be put into a separate bank account and used for NO other purpose. There was no bank account and the MC was keeping a sort of list on what was being spent on general reserves and on cluster streets. We did an analysis for the last 20 years (thru end of 1999) and discovered that almost 400K (including interest) was missing from what should have been Cluster's "restricted funds" and reported this to the board.

Since there was a lot of deferred maintenance, the board was anxious to get a dues increase and didn't want to stir the pot so didn't want the homeowners to know this. We felt we had a fiduciary duty to let the homeowners know but were blocked from putting any articles into our newsletter. We were told it was "not in the best interest of the homeowners to know." Finally, the board fired the audit committee - they saw us as stopping them from doing what they wanted. We put out flyers and tried to let HOs know the truth but were labeled as troublemakers.

Anyway, I've kept detailed spreadsheets (2000-2014) of the Cluster Reserves and currently there is $330K missing - $90K in deposits not made and $240K in expenses paid out that should have been paid out of General Reserves and/or the Operating Fund. The current MC (start 2011)has missed a lot of deposits to this account - at one point behind over $30K. In 2012 and 2013 before the annual meeting, I've emailed the board letting them know this so they wouldn't be bragging about how much under budget they were and hopefully make up the deposits.

The current board is fairly new and mostly new homeowners so don't know the history here. They announced they wanted to amend our declaration and started putting out a lot of misinformation about our current declaration and how HOs really needed more protection. They welcomed feedback after we read the draft. Turns out it's a lot of legalese taking away HO rights and giving a lot of power to the board and MC. I emailed the board pointing out these things and also letting them know that the newest Reserve Studies (showing cluster dues needed raised due to underfunding)was full of errors and that the opposite were true if Cluster missing monies were paid back. After wanting proof of my statement, I emailed the board my Cluster Reserve Analysis (as of 9/30/14)and also requested they post minutes and financials for the last 8-9 months so I could up-date the spreadsheets. The board president forwarded my email/analysis to the VP of the MC to look into.

After they posted a lot of the minutes and financials, I emailed back with an updated analysis (5/31/15)and requested other documents be posted - most should have been posted by 3/31/15 per Colorado law. I also let them know that for two months this year deposits($9K)were not made to the Cluster Reserves. The VP insisted they were made and perhaps I was not seeing newer financials that the board had not yet approved. I explained she was looking only at the revenue side which showed 5 months of deposits but when you looked at the balance sheet and the cash account, the months of Mar and May only showed activity of interest earned. So the financials did not balance and maybe a lot of errors were covered up by "due to/from" accounts they had set up. They immediately pulled the 5/31/15 financials from the website,

Other accounting messes: We are one entity with three different bank accounts yet they have three different sets of books set up - one for each bank account. So if I want to know how much cash the HOA has on hand, I have to get an amount from three different balance sheets and then do a separate calculation to get the total. In looking at the "due to/from" accounts to see if maybe they had money due to the clusters, I discovered something even more astonishing - they went back in time and changed financial statement numbers. For example, the Nov. 2014 cash beginning balances are $75K less than the ending balances at 10/31/15.

After this, the board president became angry with me saying my "incessant emails had to stop and were costing the HOA $125/hr. This was a lie along with telling me that if I needed additional information, I would need to attend board meetings and if not available there, I would have to pay for it. Then he stated “I will also remind you that these kinds of disclosures are not a requirement of our governing documents nor by statute, since the HOA is exempt from CCIOA disclosure requirements.”

The VP replied to the board president (hitting "reply all" by mistake)stating that "Just to be clear, we are not charging for the research or the response. You can keep telling her that, however." Then I stopped getting replies to my requests for additional records. In previous requests, I let them know that my request were all covered by Colorado statures . Then after finding this site, I send another email request listing the 4 or 5 statutes by number that had to do with Association records. I also listed three other statutes that the HOA was violating like the CAM licensing law but let them know that my intent was not to file a claim. But if they didn't post the requested records by a deadline, I would file a complaint with DORA for CAM license violations.

The community manager sent an email stating he was working on getting these items posted except for the 6/30/15 and 7/31/15 financials as they had not been approved by the board. This happened last year month after month when the board tabled the financials due to adjustments requested. I let him know that the board did not have to approve the financials for them to be posted. Any corrections/entries they wanted had to be made in the current month. Of the 10 records I requested, three were posted and them that stopped.

I'm not sure what to do!

If you've read this far, thanks for your time.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
The management company is supposed to be working for the board, not the other way around, so it would appear the bigger issue is whether you trust them. Are there other homeowners who are as concerned as you? If so, are there enough of you to band together and call for a special meeting to get your questions answered? If necessary, would the homeowners be willing to do a recall of the board, elect a new one who could then have the books audited by a professional?

If there is some (a lot) of funny business going on, it may be necessary to find a new property manager, but you'll need a board (this one or a new one) to go about hiring one. Having a committee help research who's out there, who has a good reputation and such will be critical - if such a committee was established, would you be willing to participate?

You see what you need to go - start talking to your neighbors and see how they feel and if they're willing to help. Be prepared for apathy - some really don't give a damn for whatever reason, others can't count and are afraid that others will find out and so they won't do anything.

You might also want to look at your concerns and prioritize which ones are most important - start with getting answers to those issues first and then work down the list. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
SheilaH,

Yes, I think that the board president is giving the orders here.

I think he is upset with me because of my observations. Now the board had to get new bids from the asphalt and concrete company after which the two reserve studies have to be redone. He even reported in the last newsletter "Amended Declaration update: ...our efforts have been delayed because of the distraction caused by ongoing issues with community management" ... "We’d hoped to bring it all to a vote at the Annual Meeting, but the project is, for the most part, tabled until next year.”

Yet this could have been avoided if ANYONE had read the Declaration.

The reason I put in a lot of history was to show that the missing money and problem with MCs is not new. We have had three different MCs since 2000 and NOT one of them read the declaration - or at least not the part that states how the different fees are to be handled. Instead of titling the account by its restricted purpose, one MC titled it "asphalt" so any bill from the asphalt company was paid out of there - even it was for the jog path or the clubhouse and tennis parking lots that everyone uses and so should be paid out of General Reserves. Also the same asphalt company does the concrete sidewalk R/R so it is paid from the wrong account too.

In the past, when we tried to get other involved, it's like you stated: most were apathetic or didn't want to get involved because the board has all the power to label anyone a troublemaker.

I have not done anything for these past several years other than to review the financials and track the reserve deposits and expenses.
However, just recently Colorado has passed new legislation dealing with community managers. "Property managers risk loss of license for knowingly violating or knowingly directing others to violate CCIOA."

So even if the MC works for the board, the manager is still required to follow the law no matter what the board says.

It is surprising that the MCs still flaunt the law. And to what purpose? Why try to keep HOs in the dark?

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Hi Linda

Seems to me, there are 2 groups involved here. The clusters group should be upset if money is missing. The non-clusters group probably don't want to spend time and money to correct old errors that would shift $ from general accounts to a clusters account. I assume that you are in the clusters group.

I have a few questions:

1. Is the clusters group is adequately represented on the board?

2. When was the last independent audit?

3. Do you think you can muster enough support to demand an independent audit of the clusters reserves?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
LindaS27 (Colorado)

In case I missed it above, is your community subject to the compulsory audit requirements of Colorado's Common Interest Ownership Act where both the following conditions are met in 38-33.3-303 4B2: annual revenues or expenditures at least $ 250,000 AND at least a third of the member units specifically request the audit ?

If you can get past the 2nd hurdle from enough other owners, why more rope a dope ?

( Makes me appreciate a condo environment of compulsory audits except for smallscales' opt out by 100 % consent. Audits are only a start of course, but a professional should listen )
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Hi NpS

Yes, I am in the cluster group.

1) Previously, there was an attempt to have equal division in board members (like 4-3 or 3-4) Currently though it is 5-2 not in favor of the clusters. Strangely, the board president who is on an ego trip and a huge liar is in the cluster group. See attachment showing his dishonesty and the MC's reply encouraging one of his lies. Odd because she seemed very responsive at first - see attachment for that as well.

2) We just recently had a CPA audit which was much better than previous years.

Example: When I was on the HOA audit committee, we did an evaluation of the 2000 and 2001 reports. They were lacking in a lot of ways but mainly regarding the reserves. Even though that CPA mentioned different assessment rates, he didn't explain what the difference was for. And he had only two columns in the F/S: Operating & Reserves. So while he found no material misstatements, he did not audit to see if the restricted funds were handled correctly. The audit committee had an appointment to meet with the CPA but that was put off and then we were fired.

The 2011 and 2012 audits were pretty much the same thing but noted that no taxes were dues for either year.
I'm not sure about the 2013 audit - that is one of the records that I've requested several times but it's still not posted.
However, some board minutes in 2014 stated that the 2012 taxes had to be amended. We received $50K+ for an easement to Comcast that was taxable to the tune of #15K+.

The 2014 audit - just recently received that copy (after many requests)but not the 2013 Audit - not sure why.
The 2014 audit shows three columns for funds: Operating - General Reserves - Cluster Reserves showing the different breakdown of expenses which is very important in determining if the correct account was charged.

For example BOD minutes:

6/18/09 Board meeting - Brown Brothers Bid - Approved: Concrete ($4,800) Jog trail ($7,700) pay from General Reserves; and Asphalt ($15,135) pay from Cluster Reserves. But the whole total ($27,635)was charged to Clusters - $12,500 too much.
9/20/12 BOD meeting - Brown Brothers Bid - Repair 2 alleys, Redo jog trail, and Concrete (no breakdown of costs) with $76K charged to Clusters. According to the 2009 Reserve Study, I'm estimating that ~ #50K was for the jog tail and ~ $6K for the concrete leaving only $20K that should have been charged to clusters two alleys (or private streets).

Back to the 2014 audit - even though the reserve funds were shown in separate columns, he states in the notes that the funds are generally not available for normal operating expenses - but did not mention that cluster funds are restricted. If he had read the declaration, it would have been apparent.

One year we were over budget, so the board decided not to fund the reserves for two months. I emailed them that not funding the General Reserves was the board's discretion, but they had not right to take cluster's extra dues to use for operating expenses.

This happens all the time. The MC does not follow our declarations nor state law.

And I bet it happens all the time too at other HOAs only the errors are not picked up.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Sorry, I forgot the attachments in the previous post
📎 Attachments (2):

⏸ Downloads temporarily unavailable

📝1825464919771.doc(22 KB)
📝1825464922854.doc(27 KB)
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Difficult situation.

Would like your thoughts on my 3rd question. Don't think you answered it.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Hi Bob,

We have annual revenues of over $450k and our current by-laws require an annual audit. However, this new board in their attempt to amend the declarations, would do away with that requirement.

To me, it's not really an amendment as it is a complete restatement. The lawyers produced a 44 page legalese mess using one of their generic forms and expecting the homeowners to comment and add/delete from that. A lot of homeowners were up in arms and from the board president's message in the newsletter, a lot of it was being removed because it didn't apply to us and other sections had to be rewritten. But as of now, it is being tabled until next year.

I hope they just forget it. If they feel something is lacking, just amend that particular section.

Just because you have an audit, doesn't mean everything is okay. The CPA relies a lot on what the MC and board relays to him/her and if they don't know what's in their own declaration and even gives false information, there could be problems.
Same with the Reserve Study.

For instance, the prior board who had been in power for several years had the Reserve Study done every five years with the same company and only had to have things up-dated. This new board has the same company but must have told them how they thought the reserves should be handled because this last reserve study (2014)had a lot of changes. It listed a lot of things in the cluster reserves that shouldn't have been there at all:
1) Private driveways for homes with attached garages - shouldn't be paid for with any reserves as it's on their own private property.
2) Concrete sidewalks on common property - should be in the General Reserves (even so, they changed the life that further distorts)
3) Clubhouse and tennis parking lots - show up in both Reserves but should be paid out of General Reserves.
4) Asphalt seal coating with a 4/year life - the costs should increase because the first expense is not until 2031 (a delay of 16 years) And part of this seal coating is for the parking lots so will have to be moved to the General Reserves.

Beware of new boards combined with a fairly new MC - no one knows what they're doing!

And of course, it's blame the messenger.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
NpS "Would like your thoughts on my 3rd question. Don't think you answered it"
"3. Do you think you can muster enough support to demand an independent audit of the clusters reserves?"

Sorry, I didn't read the last part of your question specifying a separate cluster audit.

I'm not sure - but good idea. I don't think the board would approve payment for that and I sure don't want to pay for it. I've already spent hundreds of hours on the analysis - most of that time in the first few years. Back then, our separate dues also included water/sewer charges that were provided by two master meters that supplied our domestic water but also watered the common grounds and provided water for the pool. That was a big mess trying to break out those amounts. In 2006, the cluster homes got their own separate water meters so it should have been very easy from then on just to deposit the extra dues and only pay out its intended purpose. But that didn't happen. In fact, this MC is screwing up more with their crazy accounting.

I was working with the VP of the MC who seemed receptive and was researching my numbers. You can read her response in my attachment posted earlier today. If she had verified my numbers (or at least most of them) we could have come to a solution, I think. The General Reserves are overfunded and there is an excessive amount in the operating fund so the money is there and it would have just been a matter of transferring the money. But the board president interfered and I believe is the cause of the MC no longer providing records and ignoring my latest emails. So I guess that avenue is closed now.

Back to the audit costs - I've read on this forum that audits are very expensive - sometimes costing between $5K-$10K. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of audit that entails, maybe monthly audits or an audit for a master association that has several other HOAs in it. Or maybe this is just a MC stating it's so high that boards will be scared off from attempting to have one done.

Our yearly audits have ranged from $1,750 - $2,150 for the last three years. But I have no idea what an audit on just the cluster reserves would cost. It sounds like it might be cheaper since it is only that one fund. On the other hand, it could be a lot more since it entails several years. I've done all of the work that an audit entails - it just needs verified. And a lot of that I've already verified through the minutes and comparison to financial statements. The MC should have all the minutes and could check those against the expenses I've listed provided the minutes showed the detail of the approved bids. And sometimes picking up amounts from the Reserve Study verified some of the charges. I think HOAs are only required to keep contracts or detailed expense records for the last three years so anything prior to that might not be available if the records were purged. It would have been a lot simpler if the accounts had been checked/corrected in the first place.

But back then many times, we were told that nothing was wrong with the accounting or when proved, we were told that the corrections had been made or were being made, which turned out to be false. Finally when we got the word out to a few homeowners, we were branded as trouble makers and the board finally announced that “right or wrong, mistakes were made and money went missing” and they didn’t want to place blame and only wanted to go forward.

There is no “right or wrong” It was all wrong, period! The management company should have been held liable for not properly handling the restricted funds. They had a fiduciary and contractual duty to account for these funds per our covenants. An easy fix could have been to blame no one but to transfer funds from the General Reserves to the Cluster Reserves for the missing amount.

We were assured that the accounting would be done correctly in the future. But it's only gotten worse.

Maybe all MCs are not that bad, but I would suggest never buying into an HOA that has different levels of assessments. They sure know how to collect the dues, but they don't know how to apply them to the proper expenses.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/26/2015 12:55 AM
"3. Do you think you can muster enough support to demand an independent audit of the clusters reserves?"

Our yearly audits have ranged from $1,750 - $2,150 for the last three years. But I have no idea what an audit on just the cluster reserves would cost. It sounds like it might be cheaper since it is only that one fund. On the other hand, it could be a lot more since it entails several years. I've done all of the work that an audit entails - it just needs verified. And a lot of that I've already verified through the minutes and comparison to financial statements. The MC should have all the minutes and could check those against the expenses I've listed provided the minutes showed the detail of the approved bids. And sometimes picking up amounts from the Reserve Study verified some of the charges. I think HOAs are only required to keep contracts or detailed expense records for the last three years so anything prior to that might not be available if the records were purged. It would have been a lot simpler if the accounts had been checked/corrected in the first place.

There is no “right or wrong” It was all wrong, period! The management company should have been held liable for not properly handling the restricted funds. They had a fiduciary and contractual duty to account for these funds per our covenants. An easy fix could have been to blame no one but to transfer funds from the General Reserves to the Cluster Reserves for the missing amount.

We were assured that the accounting would be done correctly in the future. But it's only gotten worse.

Maybe all MCs are not that bad, but I would suggest never buying into an HOA that has different levels of assessments. They sure know how to collect the dues, but they don't know how to apply them to the proper expenses.


Recommendations:

1. You need to find one or two straightforward issues and get support on them. Nothing positive is going to happen if you don't get support for your plan.

2. You have no plan. Demands for the big fix are generally not welcome. People are always afraid of spending additional money and getting less than adequate results. Speeches about holding someone liable is a loser. You lose more people than you attract with that kind of talk.

3. You need an independent analysis. Don't fall in love with your own efforts. It took you months to put together your reconciliation, matching this to that, finding discrepancies, reviewing contracts and minutes, etc. Even if someone is going to follow the roadmap you created, they will have to make their own independent analysis.

4. Stop going directly to the MC or the CPA. Rightly or wrongly, your efforts in that direction are not welcome. They report to the board. Leave it there.

5. Don't focus so much on personalities. It detracts from the big issue: What's happening to our money? Where's the money going to come from when we have to repave our streets? Are we going to get hit with a special assessment because the money wasn't set aside correctly?

6. So after all this nay-saying, what do I suggest. Here are my thoughts:

A. Get support for forcing the board to establish a Clusters Reserves Officer position that is separate from the responsibilities of the Prez and Treas. That officer should be a board member. He/she should have a specific charter to ensure that funds are properly allocated to the right accounts. You have a very real issue. You do need a single accountable person who will be evaluated on what happens to the clusters reserves. Right now with everyone responsible for everything, you have a real problem.

B. Get some quotes from a couple of CPA firms about doing an independent reserve audit for the current year - Not the entire history. Show them your worksheets. Find out what it will cost for a 1 year and a 3 year audit. Don't ask for a beginning of time audit. No one (other than you) is going to take on a project of that magnitude.

C. Get your message together. Short and to the point. Focus your attention on what it will take to get your clusers neighbors energized.

Hope you find some of this useful.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
NpS
Thanks for your suggestions. It gives me a lot to think about.

Your suggestion A. sounds great and if I hadn't been there before, I would think it was the was to go. When we had the audit committee, we started out as separate from the board and only accountable to the homeowners. But since the audit committee was only suggested in our by-laws and not an actual requirement, we were really under the control of the board - not really independent.

Per our by-laws, "the Treasurer shall receive and deposit in appropriate bank accounts all monies" ... "keep proper books of account"

And our state law requires:
CCIOA 38-33.3-209.5(1a)"Maintain accurate and complete accounting records"
CCIOA 38-33.3-209.5(1b)"Adopt policies, procedures, and rules and regulations concerning:
(VIII)Procedures for addressing disputes arising between the association and unit owners"
CCIOA 38-33.3-317 Association records - is very explicit on which records are to be provided and how.
CCIOA 38-33.3-402 "Property managers risk loss of license for knowingly violating or knowingly directing other to violate CCIOA.

I think there are a number of adequate laws in place. The problem is there are no specific steps to take if there are problems. The board(s) haven't adopted a policy for dispute resolution - even though required to by law (see above)

When they are aware of these laws but still ignore them, it seems the next steps are to file a complaint with the licensing agency and/or take them to court - both of which I didn't want to do.

I've never interfered with anything the board does - even if I don't agree with their decisions. However, their decisions should not involve breaking the law. And that is happening all over the place.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/26/2015 10:51 AM
NpS
Thanks for your suggestions. It gives me a lot to think about.

Your suggestion A. sounds great and if I hadn't been there before, I would think it was the was to go. When we had the audit committee, we started out as separate from the board and only accountable to the homeowners. But since the audit committee was only suggested in our by-laws and not an actual requirement, we were really under the control of the board - not really independent.

Per our by-laws, "the Treasurer shall receive and deposit in appropriate bank accounts all monies" ... "keep proper books of account"

And our state law requires:
CCIOA 38-33.3-209.5(1a)"Maintain accurate and complete accounting records"
CCIOA 38-33.3-209.5(1b)"Adopt policies, procedures, and rules and regulations concerning:
(VIII)Procedures for addressing disputes arising between the association and unit owners"
CCIOA 38-33.3-317 Association records - is very explicit on which records are to be provided and how.
CCIOA 38-33.3-402 "Property managers risk loss of license for knowingly violating or knowingly directing other to violate CCIOA.

I think there are a number of adequate laws in place. The problem is there are no specific steps to take if there are problems. The board(s) haven't adopted a policy for dispute resolution - even though required to by law (see above)

When they are aware of these laws but still ignore them, it seems the next steps are to file a complaint with the licensing agency and/or take them to court - both of which I didn't want to do.

I've never interfered with anything the board does - even if I don't agree with their decisions. However, their decisions should not involve breaking the law. And that is happening all over the place.


Another speech. And I don't think you got the message. Thanks for all the detail but nobody's listening. I think that your primary objective is to get your clusters neighbors energized. It's a long row to hoe all by yourself.

Your prior experience was what got me to make the recommendation that your HOA establish a new Officer position to be held by a board member who is not the Prez or the Treas. Not sure what you need to do to get it done - probably get the position written into your docs so the board can't get rid of it. If the voice of the people demand it, the board must listen. If you can't get enough support, then figure out what you are doing that isn't working or move on.

Question to yourself: "What do I need to do to get this Officer position established so it can't be swept away by the board?"

Answer: "Look at all these other violations. They'll mess this up too."

Right question. Wrong answer. Certainly not one that is going to get you the clusters HO support you need to make changes.

I don't agree with your statement that there are already enough laws - if only someone would follow them. My recommendation was not about creating new laws. It was about establishing a Formal Owner of the Problem. Right now you don't have an owner of that specific issue. And oh by the way, there are no owners of the statutory provisions you cited - Which seems to be the basis for your frustration.

I repeat. The Clusters Reserves problem needs an owner who operates at the board level and who cannot be removed by the board. Get support. Make it happen. Best of luck.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
NpS

I don't know how to do that quote thing (if you could explain - I'd appreciate it)

"And oh by the way, there are no owners of the statutory provisions you cited"
...............................................................................
I don't know what this means - "owners of statutory provisions" ?
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/26/2015 12:22 PM
NpS

I don't know how to do that quote thing (if you could explain - I'd appreciate it)

"And oh by the way, there are no owners of the statutory provisions you cited"
...............................................................................
I don't know what this means - "owners of statutory provisions" ?


Click "quote" instead of "reply." Add your message to the bottom.

An "owner" of a statutory provision would be responsible for making sure that the provisions work effectively.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
So by "owner" are you saying only one person should be responsible - rather than the whole board?
If so, does the treasurer count as being responsible for depositing funds in the proper account?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Keep in mind that responsibility is not the same as performing the actual task.

The Treasurer is responsible, and accountable to the Board, for keeping the financial records, tracking payments, deposits, paying bills, etc.

The actual tasks of performing those functions may be delegated to others. When this occurs, the Treasurer is still responsible to make sure those things are done and done properly.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/26/2015 5:09 PM
So by "owner" are you saying only one person should be responsible - rather than the whole board?
If so, does the treasurer count as being responsible for depositing funds in the proper account?


Yes - one board member who has the added responsibility to make sure that the right amounts go into and come out of the clusters reserves.

As Tim says, doing the work is not the same as having responsibility for making sure that the work gets done the right way.

All board members are responsible for everything. But some have specialized responsibilities. The Prez oversees the agenda and calls the meetings. The Secretary takes minutes. The Treas oversees the finances. I am recommending another Specialist role for your association - the Clusters Reserves Officer. The reason you need it is that the people who currently have responsibility for the whole ball of wax aren't doing a good enough job of keeping the clusters reserves separate. The clusters reserves needs an owner.

My best suggestion would be to invite a few clusters neighbors over to discuss what they think is the best way to go about it.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/26/2015 6:27 PM
Keep in mind that responsibility is not the same as performing the actual task.

The Treasurer is responsible, and accountable to the Board, for keeping the financial records, tracking payments, deposits, paying bills, etc.

The actual tasks of performing those functions may be delegated to others. When this occurs, the Treasurer is still responsible to make sure those things are done and done properly.


So when these treasurer tasks have been delegated to the MC - what then is their responsibility to get them done correctly or to follow the law and the HOA covenants?

I saw the 2000 contract with the MC and it said something like they would follow our covenants, etc. I haven't seem our current contract but don't they all pretty much have stipulations that require getting the funding and accounting done correctly?

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 08/26/2015 10:31 PM
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/26/2015 5:09 PM
So by "owner" are you saying only one person should be responsible - rather than the whole board?
If so, does the treasurer count as being responsible for depositing funds in the proper account?


Yes - one board member who has the added responsibility to make sure that the right amounts go into and come out of the clusters reserves.

As Tim says, doing the work is not the same as having responsibility for making sure that the work gets done the right way.

All board members are responsible for everything. But some have specialized responsibilities. The Prez oversees the agenda and calls the meetings. The Secretary takes minutes. The Treas oversees the finances. I am recommending another Specialist role for your association - the Clusters Reserves Officer. The reason you need it is that the people who currently have responsibility for the whole ball of wax aren't doing a good enough job of keeping the clusters reserves separate. The clusters reserves needs an owner.

My best suggestion would be to invite a few clusters neighbors over to discuss what they think is the best way to go about it.

This sounds like a big job so I want to be sure exactly what I'm talking about before I start bringing other homeowners in to help.
I'm not clear on something. Would both the treasurer and the Cluster Reserves Officer oversee the Cluster Reserves and would there be problems if they don't agree with the numbers?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 4:10 AM

what then is their responsibility to get them done correctly or to follow the law and the HOA covenants?

The two should not be exclusive of each other.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 4:33 AM
This sounds like a big job so I want to be sure exactly what I'm talking about before I start bringing other homeowners in to help.

Not really bigger than any other Officer position (Prez, Sec, Treas). Just specialized responsibilities. But I definitely think it should be given Officer status. Anything less and the person can get shot down. (That's your own experience with the committee. Don't let this position be subordinate.)

Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 4:33 AM
I'm not clear on something. Would both the treasurer and the Cluster Reserves Officer oversee the Cluster Reserves and would there be problems if they don't agree with the numbers?

Ahh. That's the beauty of it all. If Treas and CRO disagree, they have to figure out how to get it resolved or there is a stalemate. And that's exactly what you want - Discrepancies can't just be swept under the rug that way.

Also, your Treas may not be strong enough to stand up against your Prez. But with both a Treas and CRO in agreement, it's going to be a lot harder for the Prez to bully through the objections of 2 board members.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 08/27/2015 7:27 AM
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 4:33 AM
This sounds like a big job so I want to be sure exactly what I'm talking about before I start bringing other homeowners in to help.

Not really bigger than any other Officer position (Prez, Sec, Treas). Just specialized responsibilities. But I definitely think it should be given Officer status. Anything less and the person can get shot down. (That's your own experience with the committee. Don't let this position be subordinate.)

Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 4:33 AM
I'm not clear on something. Would both the treasurer and the Cluster Reserves Officer oversee the Cluster Reserves and would there be problems if they don't agree with the numbers?

Ahh. That's the beauty of it all. If Treas and CRO disagree, they have to figure out how to get it resolved or there is a stalemate. And that's exactly what you want - Discrepancies can't just be swept under the rug that way.

Also, your Treas may not be strong enough to stand up against your Prez. But with both a Treas and CRO in agreement, it's going to be a lot harder for the Prez to bully through the objections of 2 board members.

I didn't mean that the CRO was a big job. I meant the job of getting other homeowner support for this and somehow figuring out how to get that position put into the bylaws.

But something you said in an earlier post - I really like. Focus on the big issue: "What's happening to our money? Where's the money going to come from when we have to repave our streets? Are we going to get hit with a special assessment because the money wasn't set aside correctly?" Currently they only wanted to raise our dues by $3/mo which doesn't mean much to people but a special assessment might get their attention. And that's likely to happen if the crazy accounting continues.

Like you said, I might be more believable if another person verified my spreadsheets. In my earliest emails with the VP of the MC, she said she shared my analysis with our current CPA. Since he already has the worksheets, would it be okay to contact him and get a quote for verifying my numbers?

By the way, thanks for the help on posting with quotes.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 8:55 AM
I didn't mean that the CRO was a big job. I meant the job of getting other homeowner support for this and somehow figuring out how to get that position put into the bylaws.

Sure is. Never lose sight of the fact that you need to be putting out a strong and credible message that will energize the community.

Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 8:55 AM
But something you said in an earlier post - I really like. Focus on the big issue: "What's happening to our money? Where's the money going to come from when we have to repave our streets? Are we going to get hit with a special assessment because the money wasn't set aside correctly?" Currently they only wanted to raise our dues by $3/mo which doesn't mean much to people but a special assessment might get their attention. And that's likely to happen if the crazy accounting continues.

You've hit the nail on the head. Powerful wake-up call.

Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/27/2015 8:55 AM
Like you said, I might be more believable if another person verified my spreadsheets. In my earliest emails with the VP of the MC, she said she shared my analysis with our current CPA. Since he already has the worksheets, would it be okay to contact him and get a quote for verifying my numbers?

Could you? Yes. Should you? Don't think so. You're already blacklisted. Why give them more things to complain about you? You went to the board and MC - they took no action. They didn't invite you into the process. All they did was pass your info along. That's not taking ownership. That's passing the buck. That's why you have moved on and are thinking about getting the clusters HOs motivated. Like you said, it's a big job.

I'm repeating myself, but try to stay on the big picture message. You have a tendency to get lost in the weeds. Not that the detail isn't important. It's obviously your comfort zone. But I'm sure that if you invite some neighbors and just talk about the Special Assessment bomb that's waiting for you all at the end of the tunnel, it will be a very productive discussion. Energize. Motivate. Convince.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Clarification.

When I said "convince", I was talking about convincing your neighbors that your HOA needs a CRO position established.

From the beginning, I was amazed that no one on the board had specific responsibility for making sure that the unique long-term (easily forgotten) needs of the clusters are being protected.

Even if you didn't have demonstrable proof that money and expenses are not being allocated properly, you shouldn't have to be the one bringing these matters to the board's attention. That's the job of the CRO.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 08/27/2015 10:34 AM
Clarification.

When I said "convince", I was talking about convincing your neighbors that your HOA needs a CRO position established..

I don't think I can convince them without some kind of analysis that shows the proof of missing funds. If just say almost $350K is missing, they probably won't believe it because all the reports from the board are that our financial condition is excellent.

Quote:
Posted By NpS on 08/27/2015 10:34 AM
Even if you didn't have demonstrable proof that money and expenses are not being allocated properly, you shouldn't have to be the one bringing these matters to the board's attention. That's the job of the CRO.

The Audit Committee Chairman said basically the same thing. He said our analysis shouldn't have to be provided to them.

We reported to the board and MC that the errors we found (clubhouse electrical upgrade expense and jog path expense, etc. paid out of Cluster Reserves) required the MC to show a reconciliation for that account for three (2000-2002)years. Very simple - no deposits for the first two years and only two invoices the entire time. Promised results - lots of delays - we were fired - MC was replaced.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
It's not your analysis that's important. It's memorable stories. No more than 3.

So pick 3 of the most obvious errors made with CR funds.

Maybe one is the fact that the clubhouse electrical upgrade expense was paid out of Cluster Reserves. If you have documentation showing it great. Hold your meeting. Show the documents. Ask the questions that resonated for you: "What's happening to our money? Where's the money going to come from when we have to repave our streets? Are we going to get hit with a Special Assessment?"

Remind them that the board is saying everything is ok.

If you invited me to a meeting and showed me some actual examples, not only would you have my support, I'd be asking you what I can do to help. And that's what you need.

Pick your 3 items wisely. Make sure that the group fully understands the significance.

Convince them that there needs to be a CRO.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Well, through my searches, I did find one invoice for $62K w/notations showing that $28K is chargeable to General Reserves.
However, no longer have the F/S to prove it was all paid out of the Cluster Reserves.

There are several instances of BOD minutes that show approval $$ for concrete, jog trail and other items to be charged to General
Reserves that I can match to withdrawals from the Cluster account in the financials. But I guess that's another analysis that's not going to get anyone very excited.

Would be great to have some of the more current invoices, but the MC is not even providing the records they're required to post by law.

Would the 2014 Reserve Studies be useful to show that the Cluster dues increase was based on HUGE errors in both studies?

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
By the way, in my searches for invoices, I did come across this description:

Finance Committee - reviews financial audits, and monthly expenses and incomes
and ensures the HOA has a healthy financial standing for long term security.
This committee is responsible for assisting the HOA secretary/treasurer,
recommending and monitoring financial policies, goals, and budgets that support the
mission, values, and strategic goals of the HOA.

NOTE: this committee also reviewed and approved the Reserve Studies!
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/28/2015 1:01 PM
There are several instances of BOD minutes that show approval $$ for concrete, jog trail and other items to be charged to General Reserves that I can match to withdrawals from the Cluster account in the financials.

Would the 2014 Reserve Studies be useful to show that the Cluster dues increase was based on HUGE errors in both studies?


Don't worry about what you don't have. If you can show that $ intended to come from Gen Reserves was taken from Clusters, that's great. Remember, your job isn't to show that things are done wrong. Your job is to get others to come to the same conclusion you did - That without a CRO, you're in the dark and at the mercy of a board that doesn't care.

Errors in reserve studies is another complicated issue. Far too confusing to introduce at this point in time.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/28/2015 1:08 PM
By the way, in my searches for invoices, I did come across this description:

Finance Committee - reviews financial audits, and monthly expenses and incomes
and ensures the HOA has a healthy financial standing for long term security.
This committee is responsible for assisting the HOA secretary/treasurer,
recommending and monitoring financial policies, goals, and budgets that support the
mission, values, and strategic goals of the HOA.

NOTE: this committee also reviewed and approved the Reserve Studies!


What do you think of this?

CRO - a board member who reviews financial audits, and monthly expenses and incomes and ensures that the Clusters Reserves have a healthy financial standing for long term security. This person is responsible for overseeing and monitoring financial policies, goals, and budgets that support the mission, values, and strategic goals for the Clusters Reserves. The CRO coordinates activities with the Treasurer, but has his/her own independent authority to oversee all matters having to do with the Clusters Reserves.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 08/28/2015 1:29 PM
Don't worry about what you don't have. If you can show that $ intended to come from Gen Reserves was taken from Clusters, that's great. Remember, your job isn't to show that things are done wrong. Your job is to get others to come to the same conclusion you did - That without a CRO, you're in the dark and at the mercy of a board that doesn't care.

So would I just make copies of the board minutes and the matching financial to pass out?
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Posted By NpS on 08/28/2015 1:29 PM
Errors in reserve studies is another complicated issue. Far too confusing to introduce at this point in time.

I don't mean to really understand all the details and how it works but the basic (common sense)errors that were made.
Below is part of the message I emailed to the board:

Clusters were charged for Asphalt & Concrete, Sidewalks, Driveways, Clubhouse and Tennis parking lots - all in error.

1) Driveways have never before been paid through the HOA. They are on homeowners'(not common)property - paid by the owner
2) The concrete sidewalks are on common property, used by all 345 homeowners - should be paid from General Reserves
3) The parking lots are being charged to both General and Cluster Reserves - again, should be paid only from General Reserves
4) Asphalt & Concrete (Phases 1-8) nothing scheduled until 2019 with the last area being done in 2030 and nothing after that.
Concrete sidewalks were scheduled every three years in the 2009 Reserve Study and have often been done every year to some extent.
5) Asphalt & Concrete (Phase 9)seal coating/crack filling has a 4/yr life; however, expenses were not added until 2031 – a 16yr delay.
Also part of this coating/filling would be for clubhouse & tennis parking that needs to be eliminated from Clusters expenses.
7) The only asphalt charges to Cluster Reserves should be for “Private Streets Maintenance” per our governing documents.

The same company prepared the 2009 Study so only needed to update the changes since then.

These studies were approved by the finance committee and the board and was the basis for the cluster dues increase
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
In my last post, I messed up w/ cutting/pasting. That post is new - not a quote ..... sorry
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/28/2015 1:51 PM
Posted By NpS on 08/28/2015 1:29 PM
Don't worry about what you don't have. If you can show that $ intended to come from Gen Reserves was taken from Clusters, that's great. Remember, your job isn't to show that things are done wrong. Your job is to get others to come to the same conclusion you did - That without a CRO, you're in the dark and at the mercy of a board that doesn't care.


So would I just make copies of the board minutes and the matching financial to pass out?


Whatever works for you. Use a highlighter before you hand out the copies to clearly identify the specific things you are going to talk about. Make it as easy as possible for them to follow along.

Plan to speak for 5 minutes. It will take you longer, probably 15 minutes, but practice what you are going to say. Don't rush.

The sooner you finish your presentation, the sooner you get to ask them what they think - And that's when the magic happens.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/28/2015 2:47 PM
Posted By NpS on 08/28/2015 1:29 PM
Errors in reserve studies is another complicated issue. Far too confusing to introduce at this point in time.

I don't mean to really understand all the details and how it works but the basic (common sense)errors that were made.
Below is part of the message I emailed to the board:

Clusters were charged for Asphalt & Concrete, Sidewalks, Driveways, Clubhouse and Tennis parking lots - all in error.

1) Driveways have never before been paid through the HOA. They are on homeowners'(not common)property - paid by the owner
2) The concrete sidewalks are on common property, used by all 345 homeowners - should be paid from General Reserves
3) The parking lots are being charged to both General and Cluster Reserves - again, should be paid only from General Reserves
4) Asphalt & Concrete (Phases 1-8) nothing scheduled until 2019 with the last area being done in 2030 and nothing after that.
Concrete sidewalks were scheduled every three years in the 2009 Reserve Study and have often been done every year to some extent.
5) Asphalt & Concrete (Phase 9)seal coating/crack filling has a 4/yr life; however, expenses were not added until 2031 – a 16yr delay.
Also part of this coating/filling would be for clubhouse & tennis parking that needs to be eliminated from Clusters expenses.
7) The only asphalt charges to Cluster Reserves should be for “Private Streets Maintenance” per our governing documents.

The same company prepared the 2009 Study so only needed to update the changes since then.

These studies were approved by the finance committee and the board and was the basis for the cluster dues increase

This is important because it shows that you notified the board and they did nothing about any of the issues that you raised. It's obvious that there needs to be a CRO. It's also obvious that without a CRO, you remain in the dark.

If you notice, my message to you is narrowing in on one thing and one thing only: "We need a CRO." That's your mantra. Or maybe your mantra is: "Do you think they'll hit us with a Special Assessment?" Whatever it is, always get back to it. They will forget the details, but they will remember the mantra.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Actually I think they may be doing something about it and that's probably why they (board president)is so hostile to me now.

November newsletter - "dues increase for Clusters should not happen at this time due to ambiguity in the current governing documents until after the Declaration Restatement. The fact remains that the Cluster reserve account needs to have additional funding."

Truth - the dues can only be increased at a meeting with 2/3 approval. But the proposed "restatement" (if passed) would take that homeowner approval away and let the board decide.

Mid June - with the message that both reserve studies were wrong, I stated that they needed to get new bids from the asphalt/concrete company (to segregate the different components) and also have the studies redone.

End of July - Newsletter - Declaration Restatement update "our efforts have been delayed because of the distraction caused by ongoing issues with community management, and with the time of year—too many folks leave town for summer vacation. We’d hoped to bring it all to a vote at the Annual Meeting, but the project is, for the most part, tabled until next year."

Same newsletter - "Last year, Brown Brothers Asphalt and Concrete created a schedule for cluster home alley resurfacing based on priority. In the coming weeks, they will be out to re-look and bid on these recommended areas.

Two days later - board prez sent me "nasty" email:
1) Stop emails with the MC - costing HOA $125/hr
2) You will have to go to board meetings for any additional info
3) If you can't get it there, you will have to pay for it
4) These disclosures are not a requirement of our governing documents/statutes
5) Our HOA is exempt from CCIOA disclosure requirements

EVERY item is an untruth (read lie) and now emails are not being returned and I'm cut-off from obtaining records. I guess no one will get records because if they post anything online, it's available to me too.

Even if the Reserve Study is redone, I don't trust them to do a proper review. But how would anyone know, it they keep records secret.

LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 08/28/2015 1:41 PM
What do you think of this?

CRO - a board member who reviews financial audits, and monthly expenses and incomes and ensures that the Clusters Reserves have a healthy financial standing for long term security. This person is responsible for overseeing and monitoring financial policies, goals, and budgets that support the mission, values, and strategic goals for the Clusters Reserves. The CRO coordinates activities with the Treasurer, but has his/her own independent authority to oversee all matters having to do with the Clusters Reserves.

I like your work!

Reminds me of what our by-laws say about having an audit committee;

The BOD shall appoint other committees as deemed appropriate in carrying out its purpose, such as:
(D) An Audit Committee which shall supervise the annual audit of the association's books and approve the annual budget and statement of income and expenditures to be presented to the membership at its regular annual meeting, ...

Also the Amendment:

"These By-Laws may be amended at a regular or special meeting of the members, by a vote of a majority of a quorum of members present in person or by proxy." Last year there were only 49 present, but 44 proxies = 93 total. If it's the same this year, I'll need no less than 47 homeowners to agree with me about getting a CRO put into the by-laws.

With that many, it might be worthwhile to have the president removed from the board!
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Good luck. I think you'll do great.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
NpS
You were right in that I didn't have a plan. And it took a while for your suggestions to sink in but the more I read over your posts, the better the CRO plan seems. I will let you know if it all works out.

Thanks for all your insight and patience.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Looking forward to your update.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
This is HOATalk at its very best IMO.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Update:
The treasurer sent an email asking if I'd received the documents yet that I had requested. Then stated "if there are some documents that you would like to review, I will be more than happy to sit down and have a conversation with you, as well as review some of the documents that you are looking for."

At first I was pleased that not all of the board was being controlled by the president.
Now thinking maybe offer not really sincere - more an attempt at CYA

Anyone here have thoughts on this?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Take it for what it is, an offer to sit down and show you the records. It's also an opportunity for you to show the Treasurer the issues you have discovered and possibly gain an ally on the Board.

Who cares what the motives are. Be it a sincere offer or that they discovered things were done wrong and are trying to appease the individual who found out.

They are offering to show you the records and that is what you wanted.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Thanks for the insight.

Most of the records I requested are required by law to be posted on our website by 3/31/15.

What I really wanted was my own copy so I could print, make notations, save for future reference, etc.
His offer is to only review, but I guess that's better than the president trying to stop me from getting anything.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/29/2015 2:43 PM

Most of the records I requested are required by law to be posted on our website by 3/31/15.

Required by law to be posted on a website? I doubt that.
Required by law to be available for inspection I would believe.

The fact that your Association, like mine, is posting documents on the Associations website is a courtesy and typically not a requirement (unless it's within your governing documents).
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Public disclosure required under CCIOA - Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act

38-33.3-209.4(2) ..... Available by 3/31/xx
38-33.3-209.4(3) ..... Four ways to accomplish (at no cost to unit owner)

I've attached the specific statutes with highlights.

📎 Attachments (1):

⏸ Downloads temporarily unavailable

📝1829232035471.doc(30 KB)
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Linda,

Interesting. Thank you for the information.
It demonstrates that State laws certainly vary.
LindaS27 (Colorado)
Posts: 236
Posted:
Some of that law is fairly new - HB 12-1237 (effective 1/1/13) amended 38-33.3-317 Association Records
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LindaS27 on 08/29/2015 9:23 PM
Public disclosure required under CCIOA - Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act

38-33.3-209.4(2) ..... Available by 3/31/xx
38-33.3-209.4(3) ..... Four ways to accomplish (at no cost to unit owner)

I've attached the specific statutes with highlights.


Highlighting. Hmmm. You're going to be unstoppable.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

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