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KetanP (Virginia)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Hello, I live in Virginia and I want to understand what is the correct interpretation of the following by law. This is because one of the board members resigned and the HOA board elect the vice president without informing all community members and had a closed door election. This was all done without a board meeting open to all members. Is this legal.

I asked the HOA management company about this. Ours is a 8month old HOA so most of board members are new and rely on HOA management company for advise and they sent me the following

Section 4: Replacement . Any director may be removed from the board in accordance with section 13.1-860 of the act, with or without cause, by majority vote of the members in accordance with Virginia law. In the event of death, resignation or removal of a director, that directors successor shall be selected by the remaining members of the board and shall serve for the unexpired term of the predecessor.

Can some one please! advice me if this is legal and what are my options to challenge this and how do I go about doing this .

Thank you

Ketan.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
First, it appears the Board acted legally and in good faith. The citation you were given from your governing documents is what the attorneys call "black letter law".

The information you posted is silent on the process i.e., is there language elsewhere which states the selection of the replacement must be made in an open meeting, that the members have to be informed of the selection meeting, are there words regarding a call for candidates, etc.? Since I am not familiar with Virginia law, or the language in your documents, I cannot say the process used was right or wrong, other than on the face of it it appears the proper process was followed. I will say, in my experience, I have seen replacements made in California (before Davis-Sterling, which was implemented after I moved) and in Texas, following the exact process your documents describe.

In the HOA in which we reside, one member of the board recently resigned as they moved out of state. The board sent a message to the entire membership asking for nominations, including self nominations. We interviewed each of the candidates privately. We then held a meeting of the Board, in Executive Session, to review the candidates and make our selection. The interviews and selection were done privately as doing so in a public meeting would not lend itself to candid discussion. We did not inform the membership of the interviews. We provided notice of the meeting of the Board in which the selection was made but we made it clear we would immediately adjourn to Executive Session to select the replacement board member and would not conduct ordinary business. Doing so met the meeting notice requirements of Texas law. We did include a brief description of the selection process we intended to use in the call for candidates.

My suggestion is you ask yourself why you are concerned? Is it that a process, or perceived process, was not followed, or is it because you have an objection to the person selected. If the latter, you perhaps should rethink your objection as the language you posted made it clear the selection of a replacement is entirely up to the Board and does not require the advice and consent of the membership.

Finally, I am not an attorney, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. My comments are based on my personal experience and knowledge.
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Under many documents the board members vote on the board positions only. Board officers are not voted on by the membership.

If the VP resigned under such circumstances it would seem reasonable to have the board vote in a replacement.

I too would ask why you now feel the need to challenge this? What purpose would that serve?

The sections you posted say as much.
KetanP (Virginia)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Thank you all for the reply. I feel the need to challenge because of 2 reasons.

1. The person elected has not been on any committee or has not contributed to the community in a meaningful way.
2. I believe that the election should have been done in a board meeting where people who have put up their hand for the VP position should have been given a change in an open forum to explain why they should be given a chance
3. Also not everyone in the community was informed of this position. It was posted on the community facebook which has less then 50% subscription. This is why I feel that that not everyone was given a fair chance. Is there any legal standing to this?

Thank you all again for the replies.
GeorgeR8 (Arizona)
Posts: 182
Posted:
That's how we do it.

My entire board was appointed at one time or another. They then ran for election when the term they were appointed to was up.

Your board did the right thing, why the concern?
GeorgeR8 (Arizona)
Posts: 182
Posted:


In my opinion you are completely wrong on all points.

You don't get to decide if a person is qualified, the board does. This is strictly a board decision. No open forum, no raising your hands.

Everyone doesn't have to get a fair chance. You will get that in a regular election, which should be every year.

KetanP (Virginia)
Posts: 22
Posted:
I am new to this and thank you all for educating me based on your experience. I did look at some of the other postings in this forum and found the following. Not sure of this applies to my case but I will put it out anyways

"The appointment of a director must be done in open session. filling vacancies does not fall into any of the approved categories for executive session. The appointment needs to be on the meeting's agenda. "

"Bylaws read as follows "Vacancies on the Board of Directors caused by any reason other than the removal of a director by the members shall be filled by a Majority Vote of the remaining directors at the meeting of the Board held for such purpose promptly after the occurrence of such vacancy. EACH PERSON SO ELECTED SHALL BE A DIRECTOR UNTIL A SUCCESSOR SHALL BE ELECTED AT THE NEXT ANNUAL MEETING OF THE ASSOCIATION".

So 2 important points to note:

There was no published agenda in my case and nether a announced board meeting. My understanding is that if there is aboard meeting members have to be notified ? I may be wrong again.
Second point is not every one was invited or asked if they want to apply for the VP. The board want and added someone based on the criteria that they only know.

All I am trying to do is challenge this process so that the Board which is highly influenced by HOA management company that the board decided to keep after we took over from the developer, is aware of correct legal rules and does not repeat this, which in my opinion was wrong.

I thank you all again for taking the time out of your busy schedules and help educate me.

Kind Regards.
KetanP (Virginia)
Posts: 22
Posted:
I meant everyone was NOT invited
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
The quotes you cited could have been either from another associations by-laws (so wouldn't apply to you) or based on the laws of some state, which also wouldn't apply unless they were specifically for Virginia. Barring by-laws or state law to the contrary, the board can use any criteria it wishes to fill a vacancy.

Rather than try to fight something which on the face of it appears to have been done legally, I think your best bet is going to be through the annual election process. Run for the board, find like minded homeowners to run, and gather support to get the votes.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Ketan

In my earlier post, I described the process we used recently. We used that process as the remaining member of the board and I felt that was the best way to provide an opportunity for those interested to self-nominate. It also provided an opportunity to those who had "volunteered" verbally to be formally considered as we asked for a candidate statement form as part of the self nomination process. Frankly, we were hoping to get some new blood and we did, the candidates have lived here for a number of years but have not previously been involved.

Regardless of the methods we used, the only language in our Governing Documents regarding replacing a board member is almost word for word identical to yours. As was pointed out in a previous posting, the language you cite regarding making the selection in a meeting is not relevant unless it is from your governing documents or Virginia law or property codes, which is why I asked in my original post if there was relevant language elsewhere in your documents--and by inference, in Virginia laws or codes.

May I suggest to you that very few residents in your association will have had an opportunity to serve on a committee or make a relevant contribution to an association which is 8 months old; either point you made is barely, if at all, relevant. You may find the person who was selected has experience, perhaps significant experience, in an HOA elsewhere. Even that is not necessary, almost anyone can be an effective board member with coaching and commitment.

Again, if you accept the interpretation by others of the language you provided, and find there is no other language in your governing documents or Virginia law/code which requires the selection to have been made in an open meeting, I recommend you drop the matter.

Do you have some other concern? You seem to want to find some way to undo the selection of the replacement.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Ketan,

First of all, welcome to the forum.

When a Director resigns, the replacement is typically appointed by the Board. This is supported by § 13.1-862 (scroll down the page) of the Virginia Nonstock Corporation Act and your governing documents.

The vote being held in executive session is authorized by VA § 55-510.1 of the Virginia Property Owners Association Act (again scroll down the page).

Paragraph C of that section specifies that personnel matters may be discussed in open session and Paragraph B of that section specifies that the election of Officers may be done by secret ballot.

I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear.
I hope it helps,

Tim
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KetanP on 08/19/2015 11:27 AM
I am new to this and thank you all for educating me based on your experience. I did look at some of the other postings in this forum and found the following. Not sure of this applies to my case but I will put it out anyways

"The appointment of a director must be done in open session. filling vacancies does not fall into any of the approved categories for executive session. The appointment needs to be on the meeting's agenda. "

"Bylaws read as follows "Vacancies on the Board of Directors caused by any reason other than the removal of a director by the members shall be filled by a Majority Vote of the remaining directors at the meeting of the Board held for such purpose promptly after the occurrence of such vacancy. EACH PERSON SO ELECTED SHALL BE A DIRECTOR UNTIL A SUCCESSOR SHALL BE ELECTED AT THE NEXT ANNUAL MEETING OF THE ASSOCIATION".

So 2 important points to note:

There was no published agenda in my case and nether a announced board meeting. My understanding is that if there is aboard meeting members have to be notified ? I may be wrong again.
Second point is not every one was invited or asked if they want to apply for the VP. The board want and added someone based on the criteria that they only know.

All I am trying to do is challenge this process so that the Board which is highly influenced by HOA management company that the board decided to keep after we took over from the developer, is aware of correct legal rules and does not repeat this, which in my opinion was wrong.

I thank you all again for taking the time out of your busy schedules and help educate me.

Kind Regards.

With all due respect Ketan the two points you seem to be relying on don't seem to hold water. Tim, who resides in Va. Is one of our most well informed posters to this forum. This appointment need no have been done with notice or participation from the membership.
And there is no requirement that notification or the orotundity to seek the open position be made available to everyone. The board, not you or any other member sets the criteria.
Any board operates under the guidelines set forth in your documents or applicable state or federal laws. It is not you who sets the procedurescorcdetermines what is acceptable and desirable.
And to blunt, the board's most important role is to manage the affairs of the property in the hopes all will benefit. Taking time to explain, defend, or satisfy individual owners as to how and why things have been done takes away from that most important role.
You role is not to police, question, enforce or argue board behavior to YOUR satisfaction. Seems to me makes their already thankless job more difficult than it needs to be.
I would hope you educate yourself, learn the procedures, come to understand the board should serve your interests as well as their own. And come to a point where rather than challenging their actions you offer support forvtheirceffortscon your behalf.
Goog luck to you, your board, and this new VP.
KetanP (Virginia)
Posts: 22
Posted:
Thank you all once again for the education and replies. Life is not always fair to everyone :-)

Cheers
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/19/2015 12:29 PM
Ketan,

First of all, welcome to the forum.

When a Director resigns, the replacement is typically appointed by the Board. This is supported by § 13.1-862 (scroll down the page) of the Virginia Nonstock Corporation Act and your governing documents.

The vote being held in executive session is authorized by VA § 55-510.1 of the Virginia Property Owners Association Act (again scroll down the page).

Paragraph C of that section specifies that personnel matters may be discussed in open session and Paragraph B of that section specifies that the election of Officers may be done by secret ballot.

I know that this isn't what you wanted to hear.
I hope it helps,

Tim

If I am to interpret the following, it appears that while/maybe the appointment can be done in executive session, the vote is invalid if the following procedure is not met.

No contract, motion or other action adopted, passed or agreed to in executive session shall become effective unless the board of directors or subcommittee or other committee thereof, following the executive session, reconvenes in open meeting and takes a vote on such contract, motion or other action which shall have its substance reasonably identified in the open meeting.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Richard,

You are correct. Executive sessions are to be entered from and return to an open meeting. Results, if any, from an executive session are to be recorded in the open meeting minutes.

Ideally, the actual vote should take place in open session but it really only needs to be recorded.

Normal notice requirement is needed for the open meeting.
Per the OP, this was done on the Associations facebook page (which can satisfy the requirement).

Minutes of such a meeting may go like this:

Meeting opened at hh:mm.
A quorum is noted as being present
Minutes from last meeting approved (or approved as amended).
The board recessed the meeting at hh:mm to meet in executive session to discuss appointment.
The meeting reconvened at hh:mm
Without objection, Mr/Ms Individual is appointed to the Board and to serve as VP.
Meeting adjourned at hh:mm
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Ketan

Tim is the VA expert but to aid you, a few simple guidelines:

1. The BOD is elected via an owner vote.

2. The BOD then elects its own Officers ala President, VP, Treasurer, Secretary, etc. from among the BOD Members. Owners do not get to vote on this.

3. All Officers are BOD Members, but not all BOD Members are Officers.

4. A Officer could resign their Officer's position and still be a BOD Member. In this case the BOD would call for a new Officer election again with only BOD Members voting.

5. When a BOD vacancy(s) exists (via resignation, death, etc.), the BOD can appoint a new BOD Member(s) to fill that vacancy(s). The owners do not get to vote on the person(s) appointed.

6. A person appointed by the BOD as a BOD Member, does not automatically step in as an Officer of the BOD if they were replacing such.

The above can vary from state to state and association to association so use as a guideline only.

Hope this helps.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/19/2015 2:34 PM
Richard,

You are correct. Executive sessions are to be entered from and return to an open meeting. Results, if any, from an executive session are to be recorded in the open meeting minutes.

Ideally, the actual vote should take place in open session but it really only needs to be recorded.

Normal notice requirement is needed for the open meeting.
Per the OP, this was done on the Associations facebook page (which can satisfy the requirement).

Minutes of such a meeting may go like this:

Meeting opened at hh:mm.
A quorum is noted as being present
Minutes from last meeting approved (or approved as amended).
The board recessed the meeting at hh:mm to meet in executive session to discuss appointment.
The meeting reconvened at hh:mm
Without objection, Mr/Ms Individual is appointed to the Board and to serve as VP.
Meeting adjourned at hh:mm

Again, that is not what it says. It clearly states that a vote needs to be taken, in open session, not just mentioned or written into the minutes.

In California, as part of the budget package sent just prior to the end of an association's fiscal years, we now have to have a statement informing the Members where the "official" HOA posting will be done.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
What CA does and what Ketan in VA needs are two different subjects. Let us get back to helping Ketan.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/19/2015 3:53 PM

Again, that is not what it says. It clearly states that a vote needs to be taken, in open session, not just mentioned or written into the minutes.

Richard,

Even the statute states that actions can be adopted, passed or agreed to in executive session. The main point of that statute is that no such action can be enforced or executed until said action is recorded in the open meeting minutes.

There are many ways to take votes. I refer you to Roberts Rules of Order online - Voting which states [emphasis added}:

The usual method of taking a vote is viva voce (by the voice). The rules require this method to be used in Congress. In small assemblies the vote is often taken by "show of hands," or by "raising the right hand" as it is also called. The other methods of voting are by rising; by ballot; by roll call, or "yeas and nays," as it is also called; by general consent; and by mail. In voting by any of the first three methods, the affirmative answer aye, or raise the right hand, or rise, as the case may be: then the negative answer no, or raise the right hand, or rise.

To put it another way Chapter 5 - Voting from westside toastmasters (referencing roberts rules):

Taking a Vote by General or Unanimous Consent

General consent is a very effective way to take care of non-controversial issues or motions for which it looks like there will be no objection. General consent does not mean that everyone is in favor of the motion; it means that the opposition feels that discussing or voting on the issue is useless and therefore decides to keep silent, accepting the results. Do not confuse general consent with a unanimous vote in which all the votes are the same, whether in favor of or in opposition to some issue.

In taking the vote by general consent, the chair states:

Chairman: Is there any objection to . . .

Is there any objection to paying the bills?

Hearing none, the bills will be paid by the treasurer.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Ketan if you feel this strongly then IMO your only option would be the rally your fellow homeowners and gather the required signatures to hold a Special Meeting to recall this person and vote in their replacement.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 08/19/2015 7:24 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/19/2015 3:53 PM

Again, that is not what it says. It clearly states that a vote needs to be taken, in open session, not just mentioned or written into the minutes.


Richard,

Even the statute states that actions can be adopted, passed or agreed to in executive session. The main point of that statute is that no such action can be enforced or executed until said action is recorded in the open meeting minutes.

There are many ways to take votes. I refer you to Roberts Rules of Order online - Voting which states [emphasis added}:

The usual method of taking a vote is viva voce (by the voice). The rules require this method to be used in Congress. In small assemblies the vote is often taken by "show of hands," or by "raising the right hand" as it is also called. The other methods of voting are by rising; by ballot; by roll call, or "yeas and nays," as it is also called; by general consent; and by mail. In voting by any of the first three methods, the affirmative answer aye, or raise the right hand, or rise, as the case may be: then the negative answer no, or raise the right hand, or rise.

To put it another way Chapter 5 - Voting from westside toastmasters (referencing roberts rules):

Taking a Vote by General or Unanimous Consent

General consent is a very effective way to take care of non-controversial issues or motions for which it looks like there will be no objection. General consent does not mean that everyone is in favor of the motion; it means that the opposition feels that discussing or voting on the issue is useless and therefore decides to keep silent, accepting the results. Do not confuse general consent with a unanimous vote in which all the votes are the same, whether in favor of or in opposition to some issue.

In taking the vote by general consent, the chair states:

Chairman: Is there any objection to . . .

Is there any objection to paying the bills?

Hearing none, the bills will be paid by the treasurer.

Tim

Believe me, I do know how a meeting is conducted. In California, we could do it the way you stated, vote in ES and comment in open and have it recorded. What I posted, is from the link you posted, specifically states a vote has to be done in open session in addition to voting in ES. As John stated, I am using what Virginia rules states.

I teach my Boards that when you vote on something, motion is made along with a second. In open session, there are no secret ballots, except for election of officers, you are appointing a director, which is different.

That is my interpretation of Virginia's rules.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Richard,

We seem to having different viewpoints on ways votes can be cast.
I provided links to Roberts Rules of Order which describe those various ways.

Other then the methodology of the vote, we agree.

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

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