A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
← Return to Topics List

Reinstated HOA questions

Started by DismeyG • 7 replies • 1852 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

DismeyG (Florida)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Hi all,

I've been lurking, reading and learning here for a while about HOAs before asking my questions (so I thank you for that!), however I did not find an answer to my specific situation. I apologize in advance if this is a repeated topic and hope someone can help me.

I purchased a house with my parents in 2009. At the Title House, they searched and found out that there was no HOA active at the time. In 2011, the HOA was reinstated. My parents and I found out via a letter with an invoice asking for yearly dues, explaining that they would use these fees to fix the roads (we have really bad dirt roads, not even emergency vehicles went in), etc. My mom went ahead and paid the fees, as she has for the past 4 years, and it is true that a few times a year they fix some pot holes, etc.. What she didn't do was pay the late fees they were charging her every year, (due to her lack of English language knowledge, and I was away at school most of the time) and so this year they sent us a letter saying the fees need to be paid, along with some attorneys fees, or they will place a lien on our property. I've found out that they actually can do this (thanks to this website) and I will end up paying them, that's not in question, but with my research, more questions have arisen.

1. Can anyone just go and pay the fees and reinstate a HOA? No voting, or at least inform the members of this? Should there not at least be a meeting to elect new officers? A quick search told me that, while they were officially set up in 1989, the HOA went inactive in 2002 and when it was reinstated in 2011 it had 5 completely new officers - 2 sets of married people, and a 5th person (that looks fishy to me!). Nobody elected them, nobody voted them in, they did not hold a meeting to see if we wanted them as officers (or if we wanted the HOA reinstated at all... do we get a say?)

2. I have looked up all my paperwork and I have not found deed restrictions or CC&Rs. The only thing that remotely mentions this is my Title Insurance (is that what it's called?) that it says they are not responsible for any fees that any HOA may enforce. Where should I be looking? I also found no public records of CC&Rs at the Recorders Office.

3. There has never been a meeting -annual or otherwise- for the HOA. I never really minded until now that I'm realizing that I need to be more involved to see where my money *really* is going.

4. Can I ask the HOA for a copy of CC&Rs? Does that also explain what rights I have as a HOA member? What other HOA documentation do I have the right to receive?

One of the reasons I'm asking is because one of the Board Members/Officers *coincidentally* has a dump truck. Guess who's filling the pot holes...

If there's any more information you can help me with, I'd greatly appreciate it!
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Hi DismeyG, and welcome.

There are a few things you can do to gather more information on what's going on there. First, go to the following URL and put in the name of the association. Look at the annual reports and see who filed to re-activate the corporation. The history of the corporation and significant events will also be found here. A Florida corporation can be re-instated to "active" status, but that usually involves paying up for missed years of filing fees. See if the latest annual reports contain any clues as to who, exactly, was behind the 2011 revival.

http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/ByName

Send a letter to whoever is claiming to be the president and request to see the HOA's official records for the last 7 years. The law in Florida says an HOA has to keep records for that long and owners have the right to inspect them. Say you want to see a complete list of governing documents, financial reports, member rosters, contracts, and meeting minutes of all board and member meetings for those 7 years. There may only be 4 years' worth if it was inactive until 2011, but ask for 7 anyway. They cannot legally deny you the right to inspect these records.

An annual meeting of the members (owners) is required by law and they have to notify all owners in advance. Is it possible your mother got those notices and disregarded them because she didn't understand what they were?

I would also search the property records at the county level. Most Florida counties have that information online. Look for the sales history and hopefully the recorded deeds going back to (at least) 1989 will be available in PDF form. Look at each of the deeds of the previous owners and check for language that references covenants and restrictions that run with the land. Any of those should be referenced to the county "Official Records Book and Page". Look at the deeds for reference to Lot or parcel number and see if there's any mention of a Plat. A recorded plat should also be on file with the county records and you should be able to find it. The information on the plat might also refer to deed restrictions.
DismeyG (Florida)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Hi GenoS, thanks for your answer! I have actually gone to sunbiz.org and searched for the corporation, and that is how I found out that in 2011 they changed the name, address, and ALL of the officers. Judging by the names and addresses shown, two of the people are married, two other live in the same house, and one other is the wife/sister/daughter? of one of the previous Officers (from back in 2002). Also, no changes in officers have been made since 2012.

I understand a FL corporation can be reinstated by paying the fees, but can anyone do it? Technically, if I would've wanted to reinstate the HOA by myself, without consulting anyone, I could've just gone and paid the fees, and appointed myself President?

Quote:

Send a letter to whoever is claiming to be the president and request to see the HOA's official records for the last 7 years. The law in Florida says an HOA has to keep records for that long and owners have the right to inspect them. Say you want to see a complete list of governing documents, financial reports, member rosters, contracts, and meeting minutes of all board and member meetings for those 7 years. There may only be 4 years' worth if it was inactive until 2011, but ask for 7 anyway. They cannot legally deny you the right to inspect these records.


I will certainly ask for this and see what they said. I e-mailed them about some of my concerns, and they addressed most of them (albeit unsatisfactorily) except their lack of meetings.

Quote:
An annual meeting of the members (owners) is required by law and they have to notify all owners in advance. Is it possible your mother got those notices and disregarded them because she didn't understand what they were?


Honestly, not a chance. My mom can't even throw away a store receipt,lol. She understands enough to know if a paper is important (which is why I'm sure she just overlooked the late fees and why I'm not arguing the case of paying them now). She and my dad HAVE gone to meetings they held sometime in 2009 or 2010 when they were trying to find the original owner of the estate, so I'm sure she would've known if they sent a meeting notice. And even if she hadn't, I have been back at the house for 2 years now and there has been no meeting notices at all.

Quote:
I would also search the property records at the county level. Most Florida counties have that information online. Look for the sales history and hopefully the recorded deeds going back to (at least) 1989 will be available in PDF form. Look at each of the deeds of the previous owners and check for language that references covenants and restrictions that run with the land. Any of those should be referenced to the county "Official Records Book and Page". Look at the deeds for reference to Lot or parcel number and see if there's any mention of a Plat. A recorded plat should also be on file with the county records and you should be able to find it. The information on the plat might also refer to deed restrictions.


I just looked this up. The sales history goes back to 1985 so I was able to look at the warranty deeds. The ones for 1985 and 1989 say this:

"Subject to Restrictions, Easements, Covenants, Conditions and Limitations of Record"

Then, in 2009 (the sale TO the owner before us) it changes to: "... and that said land is free of all encumbrances, except taxes accruing subsequent to 2008." My warranty deed also says the same thing.

I'm not sure if that means anything at all...? It's fair to mention that I don't necessarily mind paying the yearly fees, if nothing else so that the main road gets fixed, but I think that at the very least they have some conflict of interest going on with the officers, so I want to make sure they're running as they should be.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DismeyG on 08/13/2015 10:37 PM
I have looked up all my paperwork and I have not found deed restrictions or CC&Rs. The only thing that remotely mentions this is my Title Insurance (is that what it's called?) that it says they are not responsible for any fees that any HOA may enforce. Where should I be looking? I also found no public records of CC&Rs at the Recorders Office.


Quote:
Posted By DismeyG on 08/14/2015 5:03 AM
I just looked this up. The sales history goes back to 1985 so I was able to look at the warranty deeds. The ones for 1985 and 1989 say this:

"Subject to Restrictions, Easements, Covenants, Conditions and Limitations of Record"

Then, in 2009 (the sale TO the owner before us) it changes to: "... and that said land is free of all encumbrances, except taxes accruing subsequent to 2008." My warranty deed also says the same thing.

I'm not sure if that means anything at all...?


May not be significant to you since you are willing to make payments toward the HOA. But, what it all means is this:

Ordinarily, a title insurer would protect you from the removal of a restriction when the property transfer occurred. But in your case, you title insurer specifically stated that it was not providing that coverage.

You have a potential legal claim against the 2009 seller and your seller since both transferred the property without the CC&R restriction. The only way they would be off the hook would be if there was a document filed with the recorder's office stating that the CC&R restrictions were no longer applicable to your property.

If you sell the property, you might want to reinstate the old language. That would protect you from any claims against you by future owners.

As far as the reinstatement of the HOA is concerned, I think Geno has covered those issues well.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
It doesn't sound like there are any enforceable deed restrictions at all. Please keep in mind that I am not a lawyer. Nevertheless, unless there's a parcel or lot number that refers to a Plat, and then the Plat refers to some Official Records regarding covenants or deed restrictions, It almost sounds like the association is voluntary.

See what the records of the association say, especially the covenants and bylaws.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DismeyG on 08/14/2015 5:03 AM
I understand a FL corporation can be reinstated by paying the fees, but can anyone do it? Technically, if I would've wanted to reinstate the HOA by myself, without consulting anyone, I could've just gone and paid the fees, and appointed myself President?


No. Even though you cough up the money it is still necessary to hold a membership meeting to elect board members.

BTW, in most states a corporation that has been administratively dissolved still exists but its powers are greatly limited. It may not carry on business as usual and the only lawful activities it may engage in are those to wind down the business, such as collecting old debts, paying any bills, disposing of property.

Even though the corporation was dormant for several years, there should have been a meeting of the members to elect a new board and raise money to pay for the past due fees.

DismeyG (Florida)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 08/14/2015 12:08 PM
It doesn't sound like there are any enforceable deed restrictions at all. Please keep in mind that I am not a lawyer. Nevertheless, unless there's a parcel or lot number that refers to a Plat, and then the Plat refers to some Official Records regarding covenants or deed restrictions, It almost sounds like the association is voluntary.

See what the records of the association say, especially the covenants and bylaws.

Do you mean that the plat may have some sort of CC&R? If so, I will look it up, because we do have a parcel/lot. Thanks for pointing this out!

Quote:

No. Even though you cough up the money it is still necessary to hold a membership meeting to elect board members.

BTW, in most states a corporation that has been administratively dissolved still exists but its powers are greatly limited. It may not carry on business as usual and the only lawful activities it may engage in are those to wind down the business, such as collecting old debts, paying any bills, disposing of property.

Even though the corporation was dormant for several years, there should have been a meeting of the members to elect a new board and raise money to pay for the past due fees.


This is one of the things that bothers me the most! There have been absolutely no meetings, not for reinstating the Association, for electing board members, or any of the years they have been active again.

I went to their attorney today and paid the dues and late fees, just so I don't have to deal with one more thing (the lien) later on. Now that I'm in "good standing" with them, I will request every legal document I'm entitled to see.

By the way, I should've clarified: I am willing to pay the fees but I don't want them imposed on me if I don't have to pay them, you know?

Thanks everyone for your help, and I will probably have more questions as things develop! =) (If anyone else has any more input/advise, feel free to pitch in).
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DismeyG on 08/14/2015 7:26 PM
Do you mean that the plat may have some sort of CC&R? If so, I will look it up, because we do have a parcel/lot. Thanks for pointing this out!

Some of them do, maybe not all. Ours does. Every deed since the first house was sold in here refers to the Lot number as shown on such-and-such a plat recorded in Plat Book aaa, Page bbb of the county records. The plat then has writing on it that says (among other things) "Subject to covenants and deed restrictions that appear in the county's Offical Records Book Number xxx, Page zzz". Not all of them are like that, but many are. In other cases the Book and Page number of the recorded instruments that impose the deed restrictions appear on the deed itself.

Then there's MRTA. But that's a little ways away for your association. MRTA is a Florida statute that will extinguish the covenants and deed restrictions after 30 years (in your case, 2019 isn't that far off) unless the HOA takes certain steps to preserve the covenants. Like I said, figure out where your family stands as of right now and don't worry about MRTA just yet. You've still got a few years before that becomes a consideration.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here

Terms of Use and Privacy Statement