Director using onsite manager's address

Started by ChristopherK • 23 replies • 1864 views

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ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Hi. We have a husband and wife team in our HOA board. They've been there for over 8 years and they've broken lots of rules and caused us lots of harm. Even after being sued and being physically threatened, for some reason, they still refused to resign. I smell fraud. Also, when the homeowners and previous board members sent out letters to inform the other homeowners of all the incidents, these two caused, the couple sent out a letter to dispute these charges. However, they used the return address of our onsite manager's address and paid our management company to use their envelope to make it look like it came from our management company. Since it is a personal letter and matter, is it mail fraud? Are directors allowed to use onsite manager's office address as the return address to create a wrong impression? And is management at fault for letting them use their envelopes and stamps, even though the couple paid for it? Isn't this intent to fraud?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherK on 08/05/2015 8:47 PM
Hi. We have a husband and wife team in our HOA board. They've been there for over 8 years and they've broken lots of rules and caused us lots of harm. Even after being sued and being physically threatened, for some reason, they still refused to resign.

Why not vote them out?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It depends... Our HOA had no address officially. We had an address of the clubhouse only. However, it could not receive mail nor had a mailbox. So for communications and official HOA business we referred to the Accounting office where checks were sent.

In this case, I wonder if they did not pay the MC to save money on postage. They probably wanted to do a mass mailing. The MC probably has that ability to do it. So they probably paid them to send out the mass mailings which is cheaper than putting 1st class stamps on everything. Hence why they used the MC's address as that reflects the address of the mass mailer.

I would tell them from now on NOT to use the mass mailing. Mail to be delivered by 1st class only. Plus nothing can be put into a mailbox without a stamp on it. That is illegal if you do not. Which can be reported to the Postal Inspectors for such violations. Which I would talk to in regards to your question about if they could do what they did. The mail has their own "police" who you can contact to investigate your suspicious. It is NOT your local police. They have no jurisdiction.

Former HOA President

ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Thanks for the replies. I can't understand why anyone would fight to stay as a volunteer board member, when everyone hates them and wants them out, unless they're doing something shady. I don't even want to do it for more than one year. And I get appreciation email almost every day. I am thinking of contacting the postal investigation unit. And maybe even getting a forensic accountant to go over the books.

Also, our condo is called Tennis Club and when it was built, the Declarant had a tennis coach to attract buyers. But they didn't write anything about the coach teaching outsiders. We have a renter on the board, which is allowed and hasn't been changed since 1981, who is also the coach. I immediately thought conflict of interest and liability issues for teaching non residents. There's a clause about no running of business but tennis coach is allowed with nothing about outsiders. I'm trying to update our CC&R and ByLaws. But I see this as a problem now for HOA in liability and conflict of interest. He's been a board member for 6 years and brought in by the bad couple because they got free lessons in the beginning. I know if he doesn't resign, I can call the IRS on him. We keep a visitor log on all tennis students and I know it won't match his income. I wish I could just sell this place and move but currently we have too many renters for me to get top dollar for my place. So many problems..

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

I wouldn't go overboard on the mail fraud angle. Is the management company whose return address they used your registered agent? Many corporations, not just owner associations, use their registered agents as their legal mailing address. If so then I don't see anything wrong with them using it.

As for everyone hating them and wanting them out, it sounds like that's plainly false. There are ways to get them out, such as an election, and if everyone wanted them out that badly they'd be gone already. There aren't enough people who want them out or care enough to cast a ballot in my opinion.

The arrangement with the tennis coach sounds wonky. Besides giving the couple free lessons, does he get paid any other salary or fees? Does he get to live there without paying assessments? That wouldn't be right. Is it the same tennis instructor who's been there since 1981?

Bottom line: vote the bums out, you're only going to waste your time and get even more frustrated with trying to get them charged with mail fraud and income tax cheating.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Christopher,

You never really answered Marks question.

If everyone hates these people, why are they not being voted out at the annual meeting election?

ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Sorry. I fell asleep. To answer your question... We never had enough volunteers to fill all 7 position, since about when they started during the real estate crash. We've been short on volunteers and because of that they just kept staying on. Now that the owners like me, are finding out what's been going on and the economy is getting better for most owners and... Bottom line is that we found out by some old board members blowing the whistle couple of months ago and we got more people to volunteer. They never got kicked out because the board needed bodies. But that's over now. I am in and I got enough people involved to take over every old timers positions. But now, they're refusing to retire/resign. Thus the reason for a special vote to kick them out. They were on the board because we didn't have enough volunteers to fill the 7 required positions. Sad, I know. But it was during the lean years. I also was traveling for work and couldn't get involved. But the demographic has changed. Enough good people, but bad ones are fighting to stay on. For sure tey will be voted out in February, when our fiscal year comes. But owners didn't want to wait.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherK on 08/06/2015 7:11 AM
They never got kicked out because the board needed bodies. But that's over now. I am in and I got enough people involved to take over every old timers positions. But now, they're refusing to retire/resign. Thus the reason for a special vote to kick them out. They were on the board because we didn't have enough volunteers to fill the 7 required positions. Sad, I know. But it was during the lean years. I also was traveling for work and couldn't get involved. But the demographic has changed. Enough good people, but bad ones are fighting to stay on. For sure tey will be voted out in February, when our fiscal year comes. But owners didn't want to wait.

I have no idea of what you said. Did you have a special election to vote them out? If so what was the result of the special election?

ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

Not yet. I was explaining why they weren't voted out before. We are having the special vote to kick them out next month. He agreed to resign before, when he vandelized another homeowner's house, instead of being sued. But he kept dragging on to stay on longer and longer. Now, everyone who's been affected by his decisions or actions had enough. We asked them not to sue them yet, because all that does is have his legal fees paid by our D&O and blanket insurance. So we'll try the special vote, then the annual vote, then the lawsuit. We're going to limit our insurance coverage not to cover any wilful act or negligence or ignorance. If we can... right now, they are under sanctions and have no power but to vote yes or no. And conflict of interest rule makes it so that they can't vote to help eachother. Wish us luck.

I just can't shake this feeling they're siphoning money some how. I just can't understand why anyone would fight for a volunteer position... for the past 3 meetings when I really found the time to get involved, they got yelled at, cursed at, threatened, etc. Why would anyone take that kind of abuse and embarrassment and sanction to keep a volunteer position is beyond me. I'd say f#@$ you and quit, at the least. Unless they are benefiting by it, somehow.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Vandelizing is against the law. Why would D&O be involved?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherK on 08/06/2015 9:36 AM
I just can't understand why anyone would fight for a volunteer position... for the past 3 meetings when I really found the time to get involved, they got yelled at, cursed at, threatened, etc.

What kind of HOA do you have? Board members get threatened, yelled at and cursed at board meetings? And instead of voting out the problem people, this goes on for months? I think these people are only a small portion of the problem.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherK on 08/06/2015 9:36 AM
Not yet. I was explaining why they weren't voted out before. We are having the special vote to kick them out next month. He agreed to resign before, when he vandelized another homeowner's house, instead of being sued. But he kept dragging on to stay on longer and longer. Now, everyone who's been affected by his decisions or actions had enough. We asked them not to sue them yet, because all that does is have his legal fees paid by our D&O and blanket insurance. So we'll try the special vote, then the annual vote, then the lawsuit. We're going to limit our insurance coverage not to cover any wilful act or negligence or ignorance. If we can... right now, they are under sanctions and have no power but to vote yes or no. And conflict of interest rule makes it so that they can't vote to help eachother. Wish us luck.

I just can't shake this feeling they're siphoning money some how. I just can't understand why anyone would fight for a volunteer position... for the past 3 meetings when I really found the time to get involved, they got yelled at, cursed at, threatened, etc. Why would anyone take that kind of abuse and embarrassment and sanction to keep a volunteer position is beyond me. I'd say f#@$ you and quit, at the least. Unless they are benefiting by it, somehow.

If you do not have any volunteers or support, IMO, you are wasting your time. There is NO mail fraud. You have a management company and I bet that the address, per the Secretary of State, will be the management company's address.

ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

You're probably right on not being fraud. I'm no lawyer. That's for sure. But I am curious to find out why they would not use their own home address. Why make it; their name,
C/o of our HOA,
Onsite mgr's address.

It's not just me. Whole bunch of homeowners wanted to know if the letter came from the accused board members, or from the management company.

We were all told that the management company, they just took the cost of the stamp and thats it. The envelope was brought to the management company as a blank envelope and the return address was stamped on later by the Board Member.

Like I said, I'm no lawyer or postal investigator. So many opinions but no one can say for sure... Bunch of homeowners want me to find out for sure. I am just helping them, as a good board member should. So, I posted it on this site to see if anyone had any experience in something like this.

Thanks.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Who was screaming, yelling and threatening the board members and where was this occurring?

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

How many Board Members do you currently have? So far I count the husband, wife, and the tennis instructor. Do you have more than 3? Or is it just them colluding and siphoning funds?

If there is this much dislike of the current Board and desire to oust them, who cares about the whole mail fraud thing, and postal inspector, and super sleuthing?! As someone else mentioned, you're only wasting time and effort in doing this. What happens after you determine something was or wasn't done improperly with the mail?

Read your documents to determine the process to get rid of the current Board. You probably need to request a special meeting of the members for the purpose of removal of Board Members and election. Then carry out the election to hopefully defeat them. Of course gain plenty of support beforehand. If you don't get the support you need, then you won't win. And you won't win because enough or your neighborhood doesn't care or are actually happy with the current Board.

ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

I think we finally have enough volunteers and upset homeowners to do something. We're supposed to have 7 board members. We had 7, then 1 quit, which brought me in, then 1 quit to get surgery last week, and we have volunteers lined up to take his place at this month's meeting. The yelling, screaming is coming from homeowners attending the meetings and two guys threatening because some incident the bad board member did and the police was called on. I was traveling for work until 3 months ago and wasn't here for all this drama. I think I mentioned that a list of wrong doing and incidents caused by the couple were circulated 2 months ago. Then I found out the renter on the board who helped with the list, also had an ulterior motive. So, it's a mess of a board members and conflict of interest, etc. Me and 1 other board member are clean and trying to fix the problems. Also the new volunteers are coming in with good intentions, we hope. All 3 of us want to fix, update our ancient CC&R and ByLaw, etc and get out. We want to get more homeowners involved, which is happening... more and more homeowners are attending our meetings. I'm trying to follow Robert's rule on running the meeting, but it's difficult. Especially because the things that these couple are accused of doing is so bad and so many... I'm trying to actually look out for all homeowners, including the couple. But I can see why these homeowners are so angry. The husband tried to argue with me enough so that I just wanted to send him to the hospital. And believe me, I can and he realized I was getting there and he stopped. To be honest, I want to sell my place and move and looking for the right time to do nust that. I figure, get our place FHA, VA approved and stabilize the rental ratio to get my property value up, then sell. I figure some time next year. But I will try and do my best to fix and update until then. I've been in total of 3 HOA board. That's including this one. The other 2 were so much easier... we had plenty of volunteers and homeowner involvement... maybe this one is so bad because we went through the real estate crash. My other houses were much more expensive and wasn't a condo. I sold the other houses and moved in here to take care of my aging parents because my kids are all grown and moved out. I figure I use the money I made from my other homes for my kids homes. They don't have many years to go and this place is only worth about $250k. Not over a million like my other homes. Less money, less interest? I don't know. But it's a mess. Thanks for all your advices. I'm just going to do my best until I sell and buy another sfr.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherK on 08/06/2015 3:55 PM
I think we finally have enough volunteers and upset homeowners to do something. We're supposed to have 7 board members. We had 7, then 1 quit, which brought me in, then 1 quit to get surgery last week, and we have volunteers lined up to take his place at this month's meeting. The yelling, screaming is coming from homeowners attending the meetings and two guys threatening because some incident the bad board member did and the police was called on. I was traveling for work until 3 months ago and wasn't here for all this drama. I think I mentioned that a list of wrong doing and incidents caused by the couple were circulated 2 months ago. Then I found out the renter on the board who helped with the list, also had an ulterior motive. So, it's a mess of a board members and conflict of interest, etc. Me and 1 other board member are clean and trying to fix the problems. Also the new volunteers are coming in with good intentions, we hope. All 3 of us want to fix, update our ancient CC&R and ByLaw, etc and get out. We want to get more homeowners involved, which is happening... more and more homeowners are attending our meetings. I'm trying to follow Robert's rule on running the meeting, but it's difficult. Especially because the things that these couple are accused of doing is so bad and so many... I'm trying to actually look out for all homeowners, including the couple. But I can see why these homeowners are so angry. The husband tried to argue with me enough so that I just wanted to send him to the hospital. And believe me, I can and he realized I was getting there and he stopped. To be honest, I want to sell my place and move and looking for the right time to do nust that. I figure, get our place FHA, VA approved and stabilize the rental ratio to get my property value up, then sell. I figure some time next year. But I will try and do my best to fix and update until then. I've been in total of 3 HOA board. That's including this one. The other 2 were so much easier... we had plenty of volunteers and homeowner involvement... maybe this one is so bad because we went through the real estate crash. My other houses were much more expensive and wasn't a condo. I sold the other houses and moved in here to take care of my aging parents because my kids are all grown and moved out. I figure I use the money I made from my other homes for my kids homes. They don't have many years to go and this place is only worth about $250k. Not over a million like my other homes. Less money, less interest? I don't know. But it's a mess. Thanks for all your advices. I'm just going to do my best until I sell and buy another sfr.

I used to think that it made things much easier for the reader if you use paragraphs to break up your different lines of thought but now i realize that its much easier for the writer to just go on sentence after sentence so i have decided to go one step further and not break up my words into sentences because that too is easier for the writer and since i dont expect anyone to actually read my post i might as well tell you about the weather here in PA and just as a test i would like to know if you are going to watch the debate or the final episode of the daily show tomorrow night but then too you probably arent going to get to this part of my post so now im going to stop writing cause i need a potty and oh did i mention my new idea about punctuation marks OMG how do i stop without a period to end my sentence

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

ChristopherK (California)
Posts: 7

Posted:

I appreciate the English lesson. Maybe you should get a job as an English teacher. Sorry I'm such an old man and for not being born in this country. Also for not being used to blogging like you. But I did understand your writing. And I do feel sorry for you for cheering on a loser. I do appreciate all those that tried to help. And for those who just criticize... don't read my blog. I asked for help. I didn't ask for sarcasm. How many languages do you speak,Mr./Ms. Sarcasm? Just because you know how to blog makes you better? Feel sorry for you. But good luck to you, anyways. I could just imagine what a miserable person you must be to show off how to blog. Carly Fiorina... give me a break. No response is necessary from you. Like I said, I blogged for help not sarcasm.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Guess good luck is in order.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

one well bits and pieces of others

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Christopher,

In an effort to help, not criticize, when postings are difficult to read, some individuals simply won't read them. This can diminish the number of individuals who may have offered advice.

Breaking thoughts into paragraphs can help to make the postings easier to read.

I believe that this was NP's intended message. This site seems to have started to utilize more sarcasm then it used to. Sarcasm can help make a point. Unfortunately, sarcasm can also be taken as insulting and the point can be missed.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Teddy Roosevelt invented paragraphs.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

distinction between satire and sarcasm is sometimes missed no offense intended thank goodness for teddy

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

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