A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
← Return to Topics List

Confederate Flag

Started by BillH15 • 62 replies • 8511 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

BillH15 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello all.

We currently have a resident who is offended by a Confederate flag flying in front of someone's townhouse. She has requested the Board make the owner take the flag down. She claims from the Covenant it is "obnoxious or offensive trade", and "no article should be hung from a windowsill". The board is trying to tread lightly on the issue. We believe the flag is freedom of speech but the home owner is still pressing the issue.

Has anyone else dealt with the issue and if not, how might you go about it?

It is important also that we live in Pennsylvania but the home owner with the flag is from South Carolina. The owner OF the flag, in a related/unrelated issue(someone put a club in his yard which he took as a threat towards the flag issue) that iF someone has a problem with it they can come and talk to him.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
The Confederate flag offends me too, but as everyone else around the country has seen, displaying the thing can and does create a clash between free speech and intimidation. Since homeowners can sue each other over CCRs violations, these two could duke it out in court, I'm sure, but then get bogged down on what is considered "obnoxious or offensive trade". She might have a case with the "no article should be hung form a windowsill", but that can be interpreted as being overly broad.

How long has this flag been put up and has the complainer had any issues with the neighbor before? In fact, has the owner of this flag had any conflicts with anyone recently? Methinks he's spoiling for a fight by putting up the thing and he better be careful because someone could easily take him up on the matter (and it won't end well.)

Start with sending the man a letter and see what happens - he had to know this would have caused some static (can he discuss his flag like an adult without dropping a load of F-bombs, not to mention the N-word?) Your board should also listen out for more complaints, because something tells me there will be more of them. If the man starts barking about free speech, he should also understand that free speech like anything else comes with responsibilities - if having the thing up ends up causing lots of discord among the neighbors and putting everyone at risk for vandalism and who knows what else, the Board will have to step in.

By the way, living in Pennsylvania doesn't influence this issue at all - my college advisor used to refer to the North as "up south" because the same attitudes can be found there (I'm from Chicago, and I know this to be true...)
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
BillH15 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4
Posted:
needless to say he is very confrontational about other issues and after the incident with the club is in his yard, I am sure he will be the same. the windowsill part will most likely not apply since it is hung next to the door and we will need to tell everyone to take down any kind of flag and banner from the front of their house.

To me and our Board, it is more of a my freedom vs your freedom issue. he likes the flag because of heritage and she doesn't like to see it because of what she believes it stands for. Do others feel this is a Board issue or should they work it out amongst themselves?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
When does all this nonsense end?
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
Not quite sure how this becomes an issue for an HOA board. Write the flag owner a letter? On what grounds? That another resident finds their flag offensive. And the response you believe you are going to get? My guess less than desirable.

To my knowledge there is no law against displaying the Confederate flag. Push comes to shove the HOA just might find themselves in court should they attempt to control the flag's display.

If the board were to decide to act I would suggest they check with their legal rep. Before acting on this owner's demands.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Bill,

Many states have enacted laws to prevent an association with interfering with flying a flag. The statutes that I am familiar with all specify that it must be a United States flag or one of a limited number of other flags, such as the MIA flag.

A Confederate flag is not an American flag. It is the flag of an enemy of the United States. It is little different than a Nazi flag as both represent societies that waged war against American ideals and in support of the idea that their followers were somehow so superior that others should serve them as slaves. In any other country, those who waged war on their fellow citizens would suffer some degree of retribution including death to their leaders. But this is America and we eventually forgave the traitors, such as Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, instead of hanging them. In most other countries, flying a flag that symbolizes and glorifies those who took up arms against their fellow citizens would be a criminal offense.

Just what does that flag do for your community, Bill? Do you really think your property values are improved by the display of this flag? What are the arguments in favor of "trying to tread lightly on the issue?" Is there an argument in favor of making your community look like Tobacco Road? Why not just put up a sign at the entrance that says, "Whites Only?"

The basic problem here is that you and the other wusses on the board have allowed one owner to bully you and ruin your community. Until the flaccid pecker boys grow some testicles, the bully will have his way.

PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Perhaps understated juuuuust a tad?

BillH15 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Larry,

How is one flag ruining a community when we have had one complaint? The same person also has a statue of a jockey in his front yard and there hasn't been a single complaint about that. I wasn't looking for your interpretation of the history of the flag, I was looking to see if anyone else had the same situation occur.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
First and foremost, you specified resident. Is the individual a member of the Association or simply a resident (renter). There is a difference on how the Board should respond. If it's a renter, the Board (in my opinion) should have the resident direct the issue to their landlord.

This is because it's an issue between two owners. It is not an Association issue.

As for the claim of "obnoxious or offensive trade" as an argument, I don't think it's valid.

Trade is defined as a business. Unless there is a business that is obnoxious or offensive being operated from the home, that section of the covenants is simply not relevant.

Now, many Associations also have something within covenants about noxious activity. Since noxious is a subjective term, it's always best for the Board to clarify this covenant by defining what will be considered noxious activity (loud music after x p.m., excessive traffic, use of illegal drugs, etc.). However this phrase is typically related to activity on common area vs. individual property. Even if the covenant addresses activity on the lot, it's not a claim the member is making, hence it's not an issue. However, the Board should read the governing documents to be sure.

As for what type of response to provide to the individual who complained, I'd suggest asking for advice from an attorney. Have the attorney word the letter to indicate that the issue is not an Association issue (don't get into rights of individuals, freedom of speech or any other baiting issues that can blow up into something bigger then it is.

Keep in mind that there will always be something that offends someone.
This is a nation of freedoms and tolerance (i.e. I don't agree with what you say but you have the right to say it). Many seem to forget that and are only concerned with their own rights (vs. the rights of others).

My suggestion would be that if the individual decides to take legal action against the Association, the Association should contact the American Civil Liberties Union to see if they will take your case. If they don't take the case then contact the newspapers to State that the union chose not to represent the Association in defending freedom of speech.

I hope this helps.

I also hope that this is an actual issue and not a posting to simply create conflict on this site (as that becomes a possibility with this being the original posters first post).

Tim

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
One way to stop such behaviour is to say the only flag one is allowed to fly is the American Flag. Now watch all the old vets with nothing else to do protest, when a flag of a US Military branch is not allowed. Sometimes you cannot win but for losing.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 07/19/2015 3:46 PM

A Confederate flag is not an American flag. It is the flag of an enemy of the United States.

Well, in that case, Great Britain, German Auxiliaries, Iroquois, Cherokee, France, Eyalet of Tripolitania, Sultanate of Morocco, Spain, Regency of Algiers, Comanche, Greek Pirates, Fiji, Samoa, Tabiteuea, Mexico, Qing dynasty, Deseret / Utah Mormons, Nguyễn Dynasty, Dakota Sioux, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Lakota, Joseon Dynasty, Apache, Sioux, Brazilian mutineers, Yaqui, Mataafans, Germany, First Philippine Republic, Republic of Zamboanga, China, Dominican Republic, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, Ottoman Empire, Russian SFSR, Ukrainian SSR, Mongolian communists, Italy, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, Thailand, Manchukuo, Mengjiang, Croatia, Slovakia, Albania, North Korea, Cuba, North Vietnam, PRG of Grenada, Panama, Iraq, Somalia, Haiti, FR Yugoslavia, Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, Islamic State of Iraq, Libya, etc. etc. etc.

Many of these enemies have also been friends.
Many of these flags fly above the UN in New York.

From the Snoopes Website [emphasis added]:

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol. The Confederate battle flag is now regarded in many different ways — as a symbol of slavery, as a rallying banner for white supremacists, as a quaint historical artifact, as a memorial to those who fought gallantly and bravely (even if it was in the service of cause no longer considered virtuous), as a general emblem of rebellion against authority, as a benign display of regional pride, or even as a fond reminder of two “good ol’ boys” who were “never meanin’ no harm.”
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 07/19/2015 4:59 PM
One way to stop such behaviour is to say the only flag one is allowed to fly is the American Flag. Now watch all the old vets with nothing else to do protest, when a flag of a US Military branch is not allowed. Sometimes you cannot win but for losing.

Or for your favorite sports team or college.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillH15 on 07/19/2015 4:18 PM
Larry,

How is one flag ruining a community when we have had one complaint? The same person also has a statue of a jockey in his front yard and there hasn't been a single complaint about that. I wasn't looking for your interpretation of the history of the flag, I was looking to see if anyone else had the same situation occur.

I am not sure if this is too close to your situation but at the holidays, folks from all religions put up decorative symbols of their religions. We have a policy that these decorations can only stay up for 4 weeks before and 2 weeks after the holiday. Is there a way to limit the time the flag can continue to be hung? Setting aside the actual item and what it represents, and its not an American flag which cannot be messed with, do you have a policy on holiday decorations that you can start using?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Keep in mind that many Associations initially banned all flags and signs to keep from having to deal with issues like this.

However, people complained and laws were enacted to supersede those covenants (hence being able to fly the American Flag and the use of political signs).

Now, what if the member with the flag claims it's not a flag but a political sign?

When you try to limit freedoms in a nation of freedom, your going to offend someone, please someone else, have someone feel that they have been repressed, have someone retaliate in some way, etc. etc. Who is offended, pleased, etc. will change as those who make the decisions that affect all of us are changed.

BillH15 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4
Posted:
This is a real issue and not trying to spark controversy.

We currently do not have anything in the Covenant and By-Laws in reference to restrictions of flags or religious ornamental flags/decorations. We do have a lot of people with red, white, and blue banners hanging from the porches, flags for sports teams, as well as a couple of Marine flags. I don't see how we enforce one under a Covenant that does not specifically include this.

Thank you everyone for your answers.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> We currently do not have anything in the Covenant and By-Laws in reference to restrictions of flags

If you have no rules you don't have a basis for taking any action (as an HOA).

There has just been a dramatic shift in the thinking of many about the confederate flag. More and more people will probably consider it offensive.

I think you have a choice of making a thing about it and just ignoring it. Personally I would advise the latter. Maybe the guy will get tired when it fails to ignite the controversy he hopes for.

Nevertheless I think shunning is called for.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillH15 on 07/19/2015 5:39 PM

This is a real issue and not trying to spark controversy.

I'm glad it's a real problem to be discussed.
I'm sorry it's your Associations problem.
I can see how it can become any Associations problem.

Hence, it's a good topic to discuss.

Quote:
Posted By BillH15 on 07/19/2015 5:39 PM

We do have a lot of people with red, white, and blue banners hanging from the porches, flags for sports teams, as well as a couple of Marine flags. I don't see how we enforce one under a Covenant that does not specifically include this.

Good for you in recognizing that.

Hopefully the advice or opinions offered (or will be offered) will be of assistance to you.

Please continue to post and let us know what your Board has decided to do and how it turned out so others who may face a similar issue in their Association can learn from your experience.

Tim

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Bill IMHO it all comes down to whether or not such hangings are allowed. Take the Confederate Flag out of the mix, if it were say a flag for a local sports team and it was allowed then the BOD needs to stay out of it. If no hangings are allowed then the BOD needs to send a letter to any and all homeowners with hangings reminding them that such things are not allowed.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 07/19/2015 3:46 PM
It is little different than a Nazi flag as both represent societies that waged war against American ideals and in support of the idea that their followers were somehow so superior that others should serve them as slaves.

Leaving aside the Civil War wasn't entirely about slavery but about State's Rights contrary to what they teach in the Public Schools, slavery under the Confederate Flag four years 1861-1865. Slavery under the U.S Flag 85 years 1776-1861 although PA was one of the first states to abolish it. From Wikipedia:

When the Dutch and Swedes established colonies in the Delaware Valley, they quickly imported African slaves for workers, or transported them from New Netherland; slavery was documented as early as 1639.[1] William Penn and the colonists who settled Pennsylvania tolerated slavery, but the Quakers and later German immigrants were among the first to speak out against it. Many Methodists and Baptists also opposed it on religious grounds and urged manumission during the Great Awakening. High British tariffs in the 18th century discouraged the importation of additional slaves, and encouraged the use of white indentured servants and free labor.

During the American Revolutionary War, Pennsylvania passed the Gradual Abolition Act (1780), the first such law in the new United States. Vermont abolished slavery in its constitution of 1777. Pennsylvania's law established as free those children born to slave mothers after that date. They had to serve lengthy periods of indentured servitude until age 28 before becoming fully free as adults. Emancipation proceeded and, by 1810 there were fewer than 1,000 slaves in the Commonwealth. None appeared in records after 1847.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 07/20/2015 12:09 AM
Leaving aside the Civil War wasn't entirely about slavery but about State's Rights contrary to what they teach in the Public Schools, slavery under the Confederate Flag four years 1861-1865.

Wasn't going to get into this but since you brought it up... People who say the Civil War was about States' Rights are delusional at best and confederate apologists at worst.

Quote:
Alexander H. Stephens Said on 03/21/1861
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.


It was a famous speech, you could look it up. I wasn't going there on this subject, but when revisionist history is trotted out onto the stage as some sort of enlightened revelation I think it has to be countered with the truth.

This will be my first and last post on the subject here. As far as I'm concerned there was only one Confederate flag that ever mattered: the white flag of surrender.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I reckon living in Alabama the confederate flag issue is to be up my alley... Honestly, as long as I have lived here, confederate flag has never been an issue. They are sold all over the place at flea markets, convenience stores, yard sales, and many stores. Heck, they are even made here! Which that company is now doing BIG business ever since the subject has come up.

It's NOT used for racist purposes at all. It's part of "southern pride" which does NOT include pride in slave ownership. Sorry to disappoint those Yankees or bleeding heart liberals... but the confederate flag isn't flown because it represents anything but being proud to be southern. Which being southern encompasses much history and rebellious spirit. If I recall, slavery was ended and the south still survived. If the south was to "rise again", I highly doubt their purpose would be to reinstate slavery laws...

I am not here for a history lesson, as history is to be 20/20 hindsight. Flying the flag is just an issue on making your HOA a little less attractive to potential buyers. People see that, they may not agree with it and pass up the purchasing. I would ask the person if they are going to fly it, then make it in personal space. Like put it in the back yard or somewhere not so out in the open. That being that it's just causing potential buyers from interest. Something that is why the HOA has all the rules in the first place.
Former HOA President
PamM6 (Michigan)
Posts: 41
Posted:
If the neighbor had an issue with the flag prior to the shooting at the Church, there might be some validity in her argument. Neither the flag nor a gun was responsible for the deaths. He is a deranged man. Most who show the Confederate flag have been doing so for yrs. I'm not a Southerner and it does not offend me. It sounds to me like she is trying to pick a fight. Our neighborhood does not allow flags to fly unless there are holidays. No to the OP I know of no situation like this in my HOA. If nothing calls for the flag to be removed in the CC&Rs, then "offensive" is subjective and I'd leave it to fly. It would be difficult to prove in court that a temporary item could devalue a neighborhood. If it does, then a pick up truck with gun racks would do the same, or a beat up 1978 Honda Civic. No one in my HOA asks that religious or Jewish symbols be removed. Atheists seem to be offended by those.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> as long as I have lived here,

Yeah, but things just changed. Read the news, especially about South Carolina.

> Most who show the Confederate flag have been doing so for yrs.

Sometimes you have to recognize when things have come to a head. The confederate flag in the past was displayed for a mix of reasons ranging from respect for history to racism. Going forward I believe the confederate flag will be in museums or used to provoke. I think the middle ground is gone.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Then you are as ignorant as those trying to grab the lime light and media... Look a little deeper into the subject than jump on a bandwagon... Sorry but I could care less about any flag other than the US flag... All other flags are flown below...
Former HOA President
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Back to the original question, my take is that if other flags of similar size are allowed, the HOA should not be in the business of regulating content unless it specifically violates the CCRs in some way. If content violates local law (obscene, for example), let offended owners pursue it with local authorities.
Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Grant's folly was to allow Lee to keep his sword instead of summarily executing him with it for the crime of high treason.

However,

The flag in question should be given the same attention one would give any other petty nuisance:

NONE

unless flown above the US Flag

THEN

call the situation to the attention of Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson

i.e. force its' lowering by whatever means necessary
PamM6 (Michigan)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Agree with Douglas and PitA. Huge over-reaction to the flag ... huge!
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
If no restrictions then where does the type flag flying end? I hate to play the Nazi card, but consider it played.

Simply ban all flags except the American Flag.
PamM6 (Michigan)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Too many things are being banned. Cigarettes, 16 oz cokes, now some flags ... Please stop the banning and start tolerating.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
? including the Swastika ?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Not a free speech issue. You have a CCR that states "no article should be hung from a windowsill" and you have a home owner hanging a flag from their windowsill its pretty cut and dry he is not following the CCR's. Dont even mention the obnoxious/offensive issue.

I would verbally talk to him and acknowledge his right to free speech but tell him hanging flags from windowsills is not allowed.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 07/19/2015 4:46 PM
First and foremost, you specified resident. Is the individual a member of the Association or simply a resident (renter). There is a difference on how the Board should respond. If it's a renter, the Board (in my opinion) should have the resident direct the issue to their landlord.

This is because it's an issue between two owners. It is not an Association issue.

As for the claim of "obnoxious or offensive trade" as an argument, I don't think it's valid.

Trade is defined as a business. Unless there is a business that is obnoxious or offensive being operated from the home, that section of the covenants is simply not relevant.

Now, many Associations also have something within covenants about noxious activity. Since noxious is a subjective term, it's always best for the Board to clarify this covenant by defining what will be considered noxious activity (loud music after x p.m., excessive traffic, use of illegal drugs, etc.). However this phrase is typically related to activity on common area vs. individual property. Even if the covenant addresses activity on the lot, it's not a claim the member is making, hence it's not an issue. However, the Board should read the governing documents to be sure.

As for what type of response to provide to the individual who complained, I'd suggest asking for advice from an attorney. Have the attorney word the letter to indicate that the issue is not an Association issue (don't get into rights of individuals, freedom of speech or any other baiting issues that can blow up into something bigger then it is.

Keep in mind that there will always be something that offends someone.
This is a nation of freedoms and tolerance (i.e. I don't agree with what you say but you have the right to say it). Many seem to forget that and are only concerned with their own rights (vs. the rights of others).

My suggestion would be that if the individual decides to take legal action against the Association, the Association should contact the American Civil Liberties Union to see if they will take your case. If they don't take the case then contact the newspapers to State that the union chose not to represent the Association in defending freedom of speech.

I hope this helps.

I also hope that this is an actual issue and not a posting to simply create conflict on this site (as that becomes a possibility with this being the original posters first post).

Tim


What was missed is that, according to the Covenants, no article should be hung from the windowsill. If that is correct, hang it somewhere else that is NOT prohibited.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/19/2015 2:27 PM
The Confederate flag offends me too, but as everyone else around the country has seen, displaying the thing can and does create a clash between free speech and intimidation... Methinks he's spoiling for a fight by putting up the thing and he better be careful because someone could easily take him up on the matter (and it won't end well...
can he discuss his flag like an adult without dropping a load of F-bombs, not to mention the N-word?) ...if having the thing up ends up causing lots of discord among the neighbors and putting everyone at risk for vandalism and who knows what else, the Board will have to step in.

These comments are why racism still exists in the country. Look at what you wrote in defense of your "freedom". You've brought in retaliatory violence, intimidation, the n word, and the f word. You have labeled this homeowner several times over and you've never met them, you've never even seen them, but you have made numerous assumptions here and that is just as disgusting as someone who wants to hang a flag even if it is offensive to others.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CyrstalB on 08/20/2015 5:11 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 07/19/2015 2:27 PM
The Confederate flag offends me too, but as everyone else around the country has seen, displaying the thing can and does create a clash between free speech and intimidation... Methinks he's spoiling for a fight by putting up the thing and he better be careful because someone could easily take him up on the matter (and it won't end well...
can he discuss his flag like an adult without dropping a load of F-bombs, not to mention the N-word?) ...if having the thing up ends up causing lots of discord among the neighbors and putting everyone at risk for vandalism and who knows what else, the Board will have to step in.


These comments are why racism still exists in the country. Look at what you wrote in defense of your "freedom". You've brought in retaliatory violence, intimidation, the n word, and the f word. You have labeled this homeowner several times over and you've never met them, you've never even seen them, but you have made numerous assumptions here and that is just as disgusting as someone who wants to hang a flag even if it is offensive to others.

Please note that I am not pointing you out as a racist, but pointing out how racism is perpetuated, consciously and unconsciously with the latter being the hope.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CyrstalB on 08/20/2015 6:03 AM
Posted By CyrstalB on 08/20/2015 5:11 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 07/19/2015 2:27 PM
The Confederate flag offends me too, but as everyone else around the country has seen, displaying the thing can and does create a clash between free speech and intimidation... Methinks he's spoiling for a fight by putting up the thing and he better be careful because someone could easily take him up on the matter (and it won't end well...
can he discuss his flag like an adult without dropping a load of F-bombs, not to mention the N-word?) ...if having the thing up ends up causing lots of discord among the neighbors and putting everyone at risk for vandalism and who knows what else, the Board will have to step in.


These comments are why racism still exists in the country. Look at what you wrote in defense of your "freedom". You've brought in retaliatory violence, intimidation, the n word, and the f word. You have labeled this homeowner several times over and you've never met them, you've never even seen them, but you have made numerous assumptions here and that is just as disgusting as someone who wants to hang a flag even if it is offensive to others.


Please note that I am not pointing you out as a racist, but pointing out how racism is perpetuated, consciously and unconsciously with the latter being the hope.

Well said!
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
The itinerant hardworking 'red necks' (from the sunburn on the back of their necks while plowing the fields) could not pronounce the foreign word Negro(e) so it degenerated into Nigra then with the 'southern drawl' Nigger.

ORIGINALLY the 'N' word was not 'derogatory', merely a sign of the user's lack of education.

The Confederate flag in question was probably the 'battle flag' using the X pattern.

The true flag used a red white and blue vertical cross pattern which was too similar to the union (American) flag.

So the X pattern was used in battle situations for signaling as well as identification.

WE, the PEOPLE, fought hard to maintain freedom of expression.

If it violates a contractual rule - take it down.

If not, it merely the rag of a DEFEATED army and means NOTHING. Laugh at it.



PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
ps.

WOP was a rubber stamp used by immigration officers at Ellis Island meaning:

WithOut Papers
GlennB4 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
The flag is a sign of pride not racist by the homeowner?!?!? What about the black (yes, I'm assuming, I've never seen a white one) lawn jockey??
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I'll repeat this (from earlier in the thread):

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol.
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
I, personally, have seen white lawn jockeys.

as an example: http://www.lawnjock.com/images/cus1b.jpg

black lawn jockeys are not offensive per se

blackface ones (stereo typical caricatures)are

? how can the battle flag of a DEFEATED enemy be offensive ?

or are our skins so thin we bleed easily ?

IraN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
There's no law against not mowing your own lawn, hanging pink drapes in your windows, or putting lawn gnomes in your yard for all the world to see, but I'm pretty sure the HOA has rules against all of those things. Come on! This is what HOA boards salivate over! You can make this guy conform and be just like everyone else! There's no need to be passive aggressive in this case either, since Confederate Flags have recently fallen out of fashion.

Better do it now, or pretty soon it won't be lawn gnomes you hyperventilate about, it'll be lawn jockeys!

Then again, you should have a meeting about it and vote on whether or not Mr. White Trash's rights are more important than your moral sensibilities.

Be a human being and ask him about it directly, but politely. You. Yourself. Not a note from "The Board". Give him a phone call and treat him with respect. Even bigoted inbred idiots still have rights... and they usually have guns too which is something worth considering.

Or just say eff it, to the devil with the constitution. We have our bylaws and that is all that matters! OBEY.
IraN (Washington)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Interesting. Just as an experiment, I've taken a screenshot of this post, and intend to send it to all of my black friends to see how they respond.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By IraN on 08/24/2015 2:41 AM
Interesting. Just as an experiment, I've taken a screenshot of this post, and intend to send it to all of my black friends to see how they respond.

yes please perpetuate the hatred and ignorance some more. We do not have enough of it in this country.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
regarding the question: Your neighbor's feelings are hurt and offended by another neighbors flag. You as a board cannot take on someone's "hurt" by telling the ohter to take it down. That is what you do for children so that they all learn what it means to be hurtful. A virtue that has long been abolished.

Your letter to the offended should simply acknowledge their hurt feelings, and express empathy for something that the board has no control over. You can not wage a battle over hurt feelings and emotions.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By IraN on 08/24/2015 2:30 AM

There's no law against not mowing your own lawn,

Actually, there are laws for this. It's typically enforced through the City/County Health Department.

Since you are in Washington State, I'll provide the following reference:

RCW 35.21.310

Weeds and Other Nuisance Vegetation Has a whole list of links to Washington State laws on vegetation control (near the bottom of the page).

PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Also see: The International Property Maintenance Code

Generally, lawns are limited to 12" height by CODE

There are actually 'Meadow Mowers' for the environmentally friendly folk

After a few season's use you be housed in the middle of a pristine flowering meadow which is maintenance free except for the OCCASINAL mowing (max 2X per year)

see: http://www.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups/public/documents/document/dcnr_20028671.pdf
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
however

NOT POSSIBLE WITHIN THE TYPICAL HOA
NicoleO1 (California)
Posts: 181
Posted:
This is very much what I am famliar with. Its really a non HOA matter. Have the owner approach the other. Unless there is a rule or regulation preventing and specifying which flag only is allowed, the HOA had no foot to stand on.
NicoleO1 (California)
Posts: 181
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 07/19/2015 3:46 PM
Bill,

Many states have enacted laws to prevent an association with interfering with flying a flag. The statutes that I am familiar with all specify that it must be a United States flag or one of a limited number of other flags, such as the MIA flag.

A Confederate flag is not an American flag. It is the flag of an enemy of the United States. It is little different than a Nazi flag as both represent societies that waged war against American ideals and in support of the idea that their followers were somehow so superior that others should serve them as slaves. In any other country, those who waged war on their fellow citizens would suffer some degree of retribution including death to their leaders. But this is America and we eventually forgave the traitors, such as Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, instead of hanging them. In most other countries, flying a flag that symbolizes and glorifies those who took up arms against their fellow citizens would be a criminal offense.

Just what does that flag do for your community, Bill? Do you really think your property values are improved by the display of this flag? What are the arguments in favor of "trying to tread lightly on the issue?" Is there an argument in favor of making your community look like Tobacco Road? Why not just put up a sign at the entrance that says, "Whites Only?"

The basic problem here is that you and the other wusses on the board have allowed one owner to bully you and ruin your community. Until the flaccid pecker boys grow some testicles, the bully will have his way.


NicoleO1
(California)

Posts:116

08/28/2015 6:36 AM Quote Reply
This is very much what I am famliar with. Its really a non HOA matter. Have the owner approach the other. Unless there is a rule or regulation preventing and specifying which flag only is allowed, the HOA had no foot to stand on.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here

Terms of Use and Privacy Statement