? Illegally photographing members as they enter private subdivision

Started by CarolP14 • 37 replies • 1960 views

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CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

We are a 12-member private single family HOA subdivison that has a road down the center of it with homes on each side of it. One landowner at the entrance to the subdivision owns property that was "gifted" to him by the developer and of which the developer had it written in the son's deeds that he is not part of the association, does not have to contribute to the cost of road maintenance and is not bound by any of the CC &R's.

This owner has a hunting camera mounted on a post that takes pictures of all members as they enter the subdivision. He claims that he is taking pictures of those who enter his property that have been forbidden to do so. However, he could easily mount it so that it goes across his driveway if he wanted and still be able to photo invaders but he will not move it. His wife secretary at the local police department. They have chosen not to interfere, claiming that it is an association matter - even though he does not actually belong to the association. This is very annoying to me to know that I am being photographed every time I leave and return to my home.

1) Is this illegal for him to do?

2) Can the association do anything about it?

3) If the association will not do anything about it, can I personally do something to get it stopped?

AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449

Posted:

You do not have any expectation of privacy when you drive or when you are outside generally, except maybe for your back yard. I do not think you can stop him from having the camera. You do not know specifically what it is capturing even though you think its pointed a certain way. Also you will be thankful he has a camera when you are investigating a crime. A bigger issue may be the animosity you and the others may feel towards this person who does not have to pay or follow rules which I completely understand and sympathize with you. I say this because it is unnecessary for you to include that part of his situation the story but since you did include it, it is obviously something important to you and you think this behavior is connected. I will say if this is true, he likely feels the bad vibes and his connection with the police department could be good for your community if you were friends with him but maybe has caused him to seek advise from his wife/police officers who said 'get a camera so they do not pull any funny business'.

Curious- do you mow his yard or take care of his landscaping? You say he is not bound by any rules and does not have to pay dues but is your association bound by any rules that service him or his property? Does he get cable tv or internet or irrigation or use of the entry gate features?

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Melissa,

I added the part about his being exempt from the R&R's that the association members are accountable for because if it was strictly a private association issue then the association would be able to make him take it down as an invasion of privacy. I disagree that he has the right to photograph people who are essentially expected to enter their private subdivision with the privacy that entitles them to. This is not a "public" area like a park where people can be photographed legally.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

PRECISELY what actual criminal law is being violated ?

If you feel your civil rights are being violated begin the appropriate legal action.

D'OH

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Maine Revised Statutes

Title 17-A: MAINE CRIMINAL CODE
Part 2: SUBSTANTIVE OFFENSES
Chapter 21: OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER

§511. Violation of privacy

1. A person is guilty of violation of privacy if, except in the execution of a public duty or as authorized by law, that person intentionally:

B. Installs or uses in a private place without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy in that place, any device for observing, photographing, recording, amplifying or broadcasting sounds or events in that place;

2. As used in this section, "private place" means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from surveillance, including, but not limited to, changing or dressing rooms, bathrooms and similar places.

3. Violation of privacy is a Class D crime.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Carol

Do you have any proof the camera is not setup just to photograph his own property?

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Yes, as I said, no member can avoid being photographed when entering the subdivision. As I also said, if he is concerned about invasion of his private property, he can easily mount it on a tree that points across his driveway or down the driveway in the direction of his home. It is not pointed towards his home at all - just the people who enter.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 6:30 AM
Maine Revised Statutes

Title 17-A: MAINE CRIMINAL CODE
Part 2: SUBSTANTIVE OFFENSES
Chapter 21: OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER

§511. Violation of privacy

1. A person is guilty of violation of privacy if, except in the execution of a public duty or as authorized by law, that person intentionally:

B. Installs or uses in a private place without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy in that place, any device for observing, photographing, recording, amplifying or broadcasting sounds or events in that place;

2. As used in this section, "private place" means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from surveillance, including, but not limited to, changing or dressing rooms, bathrooms and similar places.

3. Violation of privacy is a Class D crime.

A private road is not a private place. A bathroom, shower (even public) or a dressing room (again, even public) are private places. Your front yard is probably not a private place. Private property owners can prohibit photography on their property, but not of their property.

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

So, if I am your neighbor living across the street from you, then I can put a camera in my window and photograph your actions in your yard?

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

> So, if I am your neighbor living across the street from you, then I can put a camera in my window and photograph your actions in your yard?

Yes.

However posting these images on the internet, or using them in commercial advertisements would not be allowed.

And my understanding is that if I made a large print of you mowing your lawn, I could sell it as art without your permission.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredS7 on 07/11/2015 7:09 AM
> So, if I am your neighbor living across the street from you, then I can put a camera in my window and photograph your actions in your yard?

Yes.

However posting these images on the internet, or using them in commercial advertisements would not be allowed.

And my understanding is that if I made a large print of you mowing your lawn, I could sell it as art without your permission.

No

You can post them on the net, but all commercial uses are prohibited. I doubt you could sell the large print without compensating the other individual.

These are all Fed laws.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 7:04 AM
So, if I am your neighbor living across the street from you, then I can put a camera in my window and photograph your actions in your yard?

My earlier answer was to Fred.

To Carol:

Yes

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Would not a private subdivision also be included in...."2. As used in this section, "private place" means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from surveillance, including, but not limited to,...

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 7:45 AM
Would not a private subdivision also be included in...."2. As used in this section, "private place" means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from surveillance, including, but not limited to,...

No. One can expect surveillance in parking lots, movie theaters and the like. Many HOA's have cameras, the issue with this on is that it is a private individual doing it, and it irritates you.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Maine's weird, you may be able to dig something up, but I doubt it.

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Carol,

Based upon your (mis)interpretation of cited law feel free to contact LE and file a complaint.

Wear hearing protection to protect yourself from their laughter.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

§511. Violation of privacy

1. A person is guilty of violation of privacy if, except in the execution of a public duty or as authorized by law, that person intentionally:
A. Commits a civil trespass on property with the intent to overhear or observe any person in a private place; [1997, c. 467, §1 (AMD).]
B. Installs or uses in a private place without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy in that place, any device for observing, photographing, recording, amplifying or broadcasting sounds or events in that place; [1997, c. 467, §1 (AMD).]
C. Installs or uses outside a private place without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy therein, any device for hearing, recording, amplifying or broadcasting sounds originating in that place that would not ordinarily be audible or comprehensible outside that place; or [1997, c. 467, §1 (AMD).]
D. Engages in visual surveillance in a public place by means of mechanical or electronic equipment with the intent to observe or photograph, or record, amplify or broadcast an image of any portion of the body of another person present in that place when that portion of the body is in fact concealed from public view under clothing and a reasonable person would expect it to be safe from surveillance..

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/17-A/title17-Asec511.html

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

B. Installs or uses in a private place without the consent of the person or persons entitled to privacy in that place, any device for observing, photographing, recording, amplifying or broadcasting sounds or events in that place;

2. As used in this section, "private place" means a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from surveillance, including, but not limited to, changing or dressing rooms, bathrooms and similar places.

Can we all not actually read ?

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

however:

crossed post with Mark:

there is NEW material to consider:

D. Engages in visual surveillance in a public place by means of mechanical or electronic equipment with the intent to observe or photograph, or record, amplify or broadcast an image of any portion of the body of another person present in that place when that portion of the body is in fact concealed from public view under clothing and a reasonable person would expect it to be safe from surveillance. [1997, c. 467, §1 (NEW).]

? legal Jabberwocky ? meaning what ?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PitA on 07/11/2015 8:07 AM
however:

crossed post with Mark:

there is NEW material to consider:

D. Engages in visual surveillance in a public place by means of mechanical or electronic equipment with the intent to observe or photograph, or record, amplify or broadcast an image of any portion of the body of another person present in that place when that portion of the body is in fact concealed from public view under clothing and a reasonable person would expect it to be safe from surveillance. [1997, c. 467, §1 (NEW).]

? legal Jabberwocky ? meaning what ?

Up skirt

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

D'OH

I actually am becoming a senior.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Shake your booty for us

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 5:05 AM
1) Is this illegal for him to do?

It is not illegal for him to take pictures on his property. It is not illegal for him to take pictures on his property that include subjects located in public areas.

Quote:

2) Can the association do anything about it?

He is not a member and he does not seem to be interfering with the association's business. What would you have the association do that you cannot do for yourself?

Quote:

3) If the association will not do anything about it, can I personally do something to get it stopped?

Sure. If you want to go the legal route and spend a few thousand dollars seeking an injunction that you will not be granted there are attorneys who will be glad to take your money.

At the other end of the scale, you could make the camera "disappear" or disable it by spray painting the lens black or hack it to bits.

You may also want to consider why this is so troubling to you. The average person is photographed something like 30 times a day. Just driving past a business or a home may put you on someone's security camera. Every time you stop for gas or shop at the local grocery you are being recorded. Cameras are everywhere. Get used to it.

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

"It is not illegal for him to take pictures on his property. It is not illegal for him to take pictures on his property that include subjects located in public areas." (Larry)

He is FROM his property of private private property landowners.

And why is it troubling me? Because I ask you the same question, would you like it if you were photographed by your neighbor across the street EVERY time you went out into your yard to do normal things? I think the average person would not like it and would also seek to find out if there was anything they could do to stop it. At some point it become a matter of spying on neighbors rather than doing what the normal person would do to identify invaders near his home and at some point also, the average person would begin to wonder about the "weirdness" of it.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Carol,

You could ask this question fifty more times, but that won't change the fact that what this person is doing is legal.

We've answered and answered you. If you don't like what we tell you, contact an attorney who will happily take your money. But the law is the law, and you are on the losing side.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 10:58 AM

the average person would begin to wonder about the "weirdness" of it.

If weirdness was legal, would you be on the outside?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Correction:

If weirdness was illegal, would you be on the outside?

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 5:55 AM
I added the part about his being exempt from the R&R's that the association members are accountable for because if it was strictly a private association issue then the association would be able to make him take it down as an invasion of privacy. I disagree that he has the right to photograph people who are essentially expected to enter their private subdivision with the privacy that entitles them to. This is not a "public" area like a park where people can be photographed legally.

If the HOA had a reason to make him take it down it wouldn't be because it was an invasion of privacy. If he had it set up pointed directly into your bedroom window, OK, that would be an invasion of privacy. Maybe even directly into your yard would count. I think your notions of the amount of privacy you're entitled to because you're in a gated subdivision are outside the bounds of reasonable.

You're already in Maine for crying out loud, how much privacy do you need?

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

(I don't have a dog in this fight but) the understanding I derived from discussions of laws concerning photography- advertising is commercial while art prints are not.

CarolP14 (Maine)
Posts: 25

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 07/11/2015 11:04 AM
Correction:

If weirdness was illegal, would you be on the outside?

Mark, hmmmm, are you the one taking those pictures maybe?

Don't answer, I just take it from whence it comes!

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

CarolP14 (Maine) :

Got a lot of sympathy for concerns about civil liberties & surveillance. But if his camera is mounted to also get visuals of licence plates/ faces of those having already entered onto his driveway, then it is not surprising nor wife's influence that the police do not want to wade in.

Doesn't sound like surveillance of neighbourhood kids nor upskirts but maybe is enjoying pushing your buttons. Why waste time worrying about him ?

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 5:05 AM
1) Is this illegal for him to do?

2) Can the association do anything about it?

3) If the association will not do anything about it, can I personally do something to get it stopped?

1. Probably.
2. Probably won't.
3. Put up your own camera that captures everyone who goes into his front door.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Corrected:

Quote:
Posted By NpS on 07/12/2015 7:01 AM
Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 5:05 AM
1) Is this illegal for him to do?

2) Can the association do anything about it?

3) If the association will not do anything about it, can I personally do something to get it stopped?

1. Probably not.
2. Probably won't.
3. Put up your own camera that captures everyone who goes into his front door.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I still am not sure the OP even knows where the camera is aimed nor does she care.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Nothing bugs a crazy person as much as a fake game camera

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarolP14 on 07/11/2015 7:04 AM
So, if I am your neighbor living across the street from you, then I can put a camera in my window and photograph your actions in your yard?

Yes, you may.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

http://content.photojojo.com/photo-technique/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/

DanaS3 (New Jersey)
Posts: 3

Posted:

We have a resident who lives across the street from the play ground here. He insists he is filming the children, just in case they do something that would cause damage to his home. There is not one single thing that can be done about this. His hand held camera is "no different than a security camera mounted to the home". Talk about creepy! Not many children use the playground as a result. Sad, but entirely legal in New Jersey.

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