Bad Boards & their Members

Started by CyrstalB • 55 replies • 2943 views

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CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Today, I heard a story about an HOA, whose board drove it into bankruptcy all over a political sign. http://consumerist.com/2013/02/11/how-a-homeowners-association-went-bankrupt-because-of-one-obama-yard-sign/

As it was being told, it dawned on me, that when hearing about Boards such as this, I've always pointed the fingers at the board only, and not the members who allow it to happen. Where in the heck was the membership who allowed the board to continue this legal fight to the point of bankruptcy??

I am turning my anger onto the membership who did nothing, not even to recall the board to stop the financial loss to their own HOA, I heard they had to sell some assets as well. You only hear the bad board stuff, but not the members, who can stop it, but choose to sit on their hands instead.

Hey HOA members, get off your arse and take back your boards if they are bad.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Crystal

Both parties now agree they each carried it to far but you ask a valid question. Where were the members/owners during all this?

Maybe Tim knows the answer as it was in VA.

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

1. It depends on more than member apathy. First, when we elect Board members, we are operate under the assumption that those individuals are honest, have some financial/business/legal knowledge, and will make sound decisions. As always, not everyone is meant to serve in that capacity. However, Board elections are open to anyone and everyone- it isn't like there is much criteria to weed out the people who have no business in a leadership role.

2. It also depends on the transparency of the Board. After reading all of the posts in this forum, we know that some Boards operate shadily or under the radar.And they get away with it in spite of any legislature that is to the contrary.

3. It also depends on how the Board treats the owners. If you have a Board of bullies, some owners will avoid participation. We have read examples of harrassment of owners by Board members.For some people, they would rather not have that stress in their lives.

4. Conversely, if you have a community of owners who are bullies, other owners who would otherwise be fantastic as Board members might not want to place themselves in a position of volunteering and having to deal with those individuals.

5. If you have an inept management company, the Board is even more likely to create bad situations for the entire HOA.

6. If you have a great mamangement company but a Board that is difficult to work for and with, again you are more likely to end up with a bad outcome than a good outcome.

If you add all of those factors together- Board members who should not be on the Board, owners who do not want to be harrassed, and owners who go out of their way to make other people miserable, a management company that is either inept or hobbled then the end result is what was cited- a HOA that has a major problem due to poor leadership and member apathy.

It is easy to point fingers but there is a chance that there are many underlying conditions that led to the situation.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Ironically it was most likely one themembers that caused this mess in the first place. What do you really think happens when you sue? Why not make the effort to recall your "bad" board instead of suing? Oh right a lawsuit is less work and sounds better for drama purposes... How "sexy" is it to decide to run for a board position, gather votes to change the rules, or vote out a bad board? The actual work you should do when your HOA could do better or make it the way you all want it...

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Quote:

More to it than that.

You need to read the actual court case and opinions.
There was also past bad blood between the the two parties that I am sure played a large part.

Laws were also written and amended because of this case.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Things that occurred in the case were:

Previous unapproved design changes.

The member trying to be funny and rub the issue of rules into the Boards face (probably due to the bad blood from previous encounters). The issue on the sign was not the content but the size. The Board sent a warning letter. The member said fine and cut the sign into two and posted the two halves side by side. Yep funny and technically in compliance. However, this is where, in my opinion, the past personality conflicts kicked in.

The board then attempted to impose monetary penalties. The judge ruled that the Board did not have the authority to impose said penalties due to language within the CC&Rs.

See this thread: Subject: VA Associations, Do you still have the authority to use monetary penalties for violations?

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Yes, of course there is soooo much more to it, however my point still stands, and even with all of the reasons stated so well above, no one gives the members a hard time for not doing anything.

Mention the words, "Homeowners Board of Directors" and you know what you will hear, but say the words, the "Homeowners/Members of an HOA" and you only hear the empathy.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Cyrstal

I believe the "Farran's" were both lawyers employed by the US Government so they were getting their "rocks off" doing this.

The HOA wanted to show their ba!!s were bigger.

All were a$$e$.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 06/26/2015 5:01 PM
Yes, of course there is soooo much more to it, however my point still stands, and even with all of the reasons stated so well above, no one gives the members a hard time for not doing anything.

Sorry, but I am of the opinion that when someone offers to serve on a board that he is implying that he has the knowledge, experience, and skill necessary to carry out the job. In the Olde Belhaven case, the board members decided among themselves that they had the authority to levy fines. It is not the members' fault that a majority of the board members went off the deep end on a power trip. I do not have all the facts in front of me but I doubt that the board made too much effort to inform the members that they were going to fine members whom they disliked $900 a day. It's also doubtful that the board kept the members informed of the lawsuit they had engaged the community in.

On the other hand, I do not recall the rogue board members offering to pay for the damage they caused nor do I recall reading about the members suing those board members to recover their costs. So maybe they all got what they deserved.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 06/26/2015 2:09 PM
Today, I heard a story about an HOA, whose board drove it into bankruptcy all over a political sign. http://consumerist.com/2013/02/11/how-a-homeowners-association-went-bankrupt-because-of-one-obama-yard-sign/

As it was being told, it dawned on me, that when hearing about Boards such as this, I've always pointed the fingers at the board only, and not the members who allow it to happen. Where in the heck was the membership who allowed the board to continue this legal fight to the point of bankruptcy??

I am turning my anger onto the membership who did nothing, not even to recall the board to stop the financial loss to their own HOA, I heard they had to sell some assets as well. You only hear the bad board stuff, but not the members, who can stop it, but choose to sit on their hands instead.

Hey HOA members, get off your arse and take back your boards if they are bad.

I have commented many times that in the end what takes place within any HOA is ultimately due to the owners action or inaction.

Those board's acting improperly do not rise or remain you power without the apathy that we hear about all to often.

And when those same owners become aware many rather than working themselves to resolve these issues they come to believe either some government rules or agency will do what they should do themselves.

I became involved in my community in 1987 found those serving to be undesirable and self dealing. I worked for years to remove them and two MCs.
But that required a level of effort few people are willing to make. How many times those who complain in the end are willing to do nothing except whine about how things SHOULD be. It irritates me when people complain as if they have no power or options to change things when the tools necessary are in most cases already there.

Sadly, the easy way has become the most popular way for many today. Home ownership should require effort and time to protect YOUR biggest investment. NO ONE WILL PROTECT YOUR INTERESTS AS WELL AS YOU.

In the end if your HOA is facing board issues if you have allowed it the fault lies with you and each owner who has allowed it.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

What can residents do to stop a board from going off a cliff??

It seems that there are only two possibilities: remove them from office or sue them.

Are there more?

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EdwardC1 on 06/27/2015 1:05 PM
What can residents do to stop a board from going off a cliff??

It seems that there are only two possibilities: remove them from office or sue them.

Are there more?

Good question but always, always discussions first. Sometimes that discussion is difficult but you gotta do it.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Tim

In the Farran case do you know how the BOD was allowed to go as far (spend as they did) ala member knowledge/input?

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BanksS on 06/27/2015 1:12 PM

Good question but always, always discussions first. Sometimes that discussion is difficult but you gotta do it.

That assumes that the board is willing to meet with residents for a discussion. :-)

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EdwardC1 on 06/27/2015 1:19 PM

Posted By BanksS on 06/27/2015 1:12 PM

Good question but always, always discussions first. Sometimes that discussion is difficult but you gotta do it.

That assumes that the board is willing to meet with residents for a discussion. :-)

Good point but one must be persistent. Get in their face so to speak. Gather support from your neighbors. It may take some time. I'm still working on mine and I'm on my own. I'm the outcast because our neighborhood is so small just about everyone else is on the board. Lol It's kind of ridiculous. We have an 8 person board for a community of 25 and most are seasonal residents.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

There is a third way, Edward, and that is to band together with likeminded owners, study your governing documents, formulate a plan, and put candidates up for election when they roll around every year. That's what we did.

We joined together in July of one year; got 2 elected to a board of 7 (of which 1 was a sympathizer) in Oct., got another of "ours" appointed due to a resignation in April, and the following Oct., we had a majority elected! And, truly, just in time to keep our HOA from falling off a cliff!

I t does take persistence and hard work but it's a lot cheaper and less time consuming than a lawsuit!

There are at least two other "regulars" here who also succeeded via, eventually, joint action.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 06/27/2015 1:12 PM
Tim

In the Farran case do you know how the BOD was allowed to go as far (spend as they did) ala member knowledge/input?

My understanding is that the membership was aware that there was a legal battle going on.

The case went on for a long time (many appeals) and the Association initially won. Therefore, I suspect that the membership, along with the Board, was confident that the Association would win on appeal as well.

The Farrin case happened in 2010. Prior to that it was standard practice and supported by the courts, and statute to allow for monetary damages for violations by adopting a resolution vs. having the language in the CC&Rs.

If you go to the link I provided earlier in the thread, it gets into more specifics. If you recall the Mike thread, this case was discussed a lot within that thread as well.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

It would seem that there are only two choices for the members and that would be to recall the board or worse some type of court action, but what that action is I do not know.

In this case I'm not sure that the HOA could wait around to get enough on the board as Kerry did. Otherwise, as she and her members did, they put the blood sweat and tears into it to get the members to see that inaction can be worse than any type of non-action.

Common sense does not prevail in any HOA membership, does it.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Indeed. Of course, most people have trouble with the "get off your ass" part and that's why bad boards continue to run amok. By the time people get fed up enough to do anything they find it'll take a lot more time, effort, and yes, money, to make it right. It's like most problems we have in life deal with the problem when it's small and maybe you won't have a big mess to clean up later.

I agree with Larry that when someone volunteers, you'd like to assume that they know what they're doing, but then again, no one moves into a community knowing all this stuff. The developers certain don't do a good job in preparing the homeowners for what's to come, most of the homeowners have the "let George do it attitude" and the ones who do volunteer may mean well, but can't or won't take the time to ask questions because they think running a HOA is like a gigantic block club. Or they don't like to listen, or it takes too much effort to go to a class or read a book.

I never thought I'd get as involved in my HOA as I have in the 14 years I've lived here. When I originally joined, I was concerned about roof vents, but as time went on, I have to say it was fascinating to see all the gears that make the association run. And the more you see, the more interested you become in figuring out how to do it better and faster and hopefully, for less money. Being involved in my HOA has extended to how I look at my home - I'm a lot more aware of what I need to do to improve it and make it functional and a place I want to call home.

I'm no longer on the Board, but I still pay attention to what's going on, and I think as long as you come forward with a suggestion instead of just whining, it makes a difference. You also have to pay attention to how you approach people - some people have problems because they dive right in, accusing the boards of embezzlement, selective enforcement and all the rest without even attempting to explain their issues in a calm, adult manner. People will naturally become defensive if you start with the accusations and name calling, and away we go....

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

TinaM1 (Florida)
Posts: 5

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BanksS on 06/27/2015 1:30 PM

Posted By EdwardC1 on 06/27/2015 1:19 PM

Good point but one must be persistent. Get in their face so to speak. Gather support from your neighbors. It may take some time. I'm still working on mine and I'm on my own. I'm the outcast because our neighborhood is so small just about everyone else is on the board. Lol It's kind of ridiculous. We have an 8 person board for a community of 25 and most are seasonal residents.

I thought mine was bad with 3-5 BOD members out of 22 lots. And 6 of those lots still vacant. Our problem is apathy, in a big way. 11 years of conflict and no one wants to get involved.

WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442

Posted:

Quote:

I believe that if as few as -5- residents would knock on the HOA president's door and just say: "STOP!"

Then a lot of stupid crap would come to a screeching halt.

Unqualified, aggressive, hateful Board members feel empowered when their actions go unnoticed or unremarked at.

Resident apathy synergizes bad behavior by the Board. I've seen it where I live.

Walt

WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442

Posted:

Quote:

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Also, Walt, please see my 6/27, 11:49P.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

We were able to replace one trustee via election. However, our residents are split into three (or more) groups: 1. the majority loves the board because the fees have not increased in years; 2. the small minority that believes the board is arrogant, etc., and 3. the ones who could not care less as long as they are left alone.

We had email campaigns, our own meet-and-greets, etc for our candidates.

So far, the board has not changed its tune one bit and we do not want to burden "our" so early in her tenure.

Long ago, we elected an "outsider" to the board but they made it intolerable for him and he felt he had to resign.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Do you have open meetings in NJ?

Campaign letters can really help--polished, factual ones with pics of "your" candidates.

"Your" director, it seems to me, should not try to change anything right now, but listen and learn all she can.

Do you have a prop. mgr., Edward? Tell us again what size & type HOA you're in.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Long story short. In one HOA we undertook a campaign to replace several BOD Members. It basically took us two election cycles to accomplish. It was not easy. We had to go door to door to get proxies. We set up information/proxy collecting tables in various parts of the neighborhood. We met monthly to discuss strategy. We paid an attorney about $1,200.00 to guide us.

First election cycle (long and messy night) we got 2 elected to the BOD of 7 thus enough to be sure the President did not get elected President again. He was still on the BOD and had a vote he was at least marginalized.

The second cycle we elected 2 more. The old President resigned.

As I said, it took some 18 months. It can be and it was done but do not sit back and hope for it. You have to earn it.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

AnnH5Fla: " . . . It is easy to point fingers but there is a chance that there are many underlying conditions that led to the situation." is one of the good comments above. How easy to take for granted the positive benefits of the thousands of good decisions by owners & Directors.

"Good people" can become frustrated enough to tolerate "bad things" or to absent themselves from participation even in any sort of owner discussion, much less votes or even attendance at Owners Meetings. The sociology ( of this propensity) might be hinted in a 1940 novel called the Ox-Bow Incident by Nevada professor Walter Van Tilburg Clark which became a classic 1943 movie. ( See the decision-making vote by a frustrated lynch mob led by a morally-decayed Confederate ex-officer ! Watch also how the alternatives were sidelined ).

Bad consequences may stick around - like unwelcome visitors - long after those in command have gone on to wherever ( ? to the 9th Circle ? cited some time back by John B26 ). Many shared ownerships of course are not like this. Many do good works and lawfully respect property rights regardless of the competencies otherwise (un)available or ignored. Watch how such BoD usually handles respectful, simple, prudent suggestions even privately.

( “A study of transgressing justice” :

7 decent men vote vainly to halt a 1885 triple lynching in Nevada after bizarre kangaroo vote by crime-frustrated mob. A judge had tried initially & vainly to head off the mob until credible legal authority could arrive. Frontier justice vote by de facto lynch mob from a saloon - illegally deputized, led by decayed & dubious Confederate retiree Major. Only 7 dissenters in posse vote that precedes shocking & illegal executions of 3 innocent men for a non-existent crime.

Late arrival of justice & the alleged victim establish that NO CRIME had even been committed. Jerks hear too late one victim’s poignant final letter to family, which one dissenter had tried vainly to insert into the grotesque vote ; the ‘leader’ refused to read it before the lynchings. - The Ox-Bow Incident 1943 Director: William Welman 1943 is based on 1940 book of same name by Walter Van Tilburg Clark (1909-1971)

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

Are you asking if the board has open meetings? I guess it depends on the definition, but residents can attend "meetings of the members" and "workshops" but cannot speak spontaneously from the floor.

We do have a property management company.

Ours is an over-55 community of some 400-odd detached single family houses.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 07/03/2015 6:38 PM

It can be and it was done but do not sit back and hope for it. You have to earn it.

How insulting you are! Why would you accuse us of that? You're an ass!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, sorry, Edward. Yes I meant open meetings of the board. Some states, e.g., CA, AZ, FL, VA require that board meetings be open to members (homeowners). Even in "open meeting" state, however, members aren't allowed just to speak whenever they wish while the board is conducting the HOA's business. AZ may be an exception where, I've heard, embers may speak about each agenda item when it's up for board discussion.

Other states like PA, NY & SC are not required to have open board meetings. Most states andHOA bylaws required one members meeting a year, which usually is the annual election of directors (or trustees in your case).

The reason I asked is one of the ways "our" people got elected was that several us attended the open board meetings every month and asked tough but fair and careful questions of the then board. In became clear to other owners in attendance that that board was very ignorant. In an HOA of 400 homes like yours, the board probably meets once a month.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 07/04/2015 11:57 AM
Oh, sorry, Edward. Yes I meant open meetings of the board. Some states, e.g., CA, AZ, FL, VA require that board meetings be open to members (homeowners). Even in "open meeting" state, however, members aren't allowed just to speak whenever they wish while the board is conducting the HOA's business. AZ may be an exception where, I've heard, embers may speak about each agenda item when it's up for board discussion.

Other states like PA, NY & SC are not required to have open board meetings. Most states andHOA bylaws required one members meeting a year, which usually is the annual election of directors (or trustees in your case).

The reason I asked is one of the ways "our" people got elected was that several us attended the open board meetings every month and asked tough but fair and careful questions of the then board. In became clear to other owners in attendance that that board was very ignorant. In an HOA of 400 homes like yours, the board probably meets once a month.

Add Iowa to the list not requiring open board meetings. We have a once a year membership meeting for elections. Iowa nonprofit law states that members may request documents and the board has 10 days to fulfill the request. My board has typically dragged their feet when I have made document requests but have improved a lot in that regard lately. I think they know I will keep asking.

I think most directors and officers have good intentions but the laws can get complicated and Iowa has a 21 year time limit to preserve the CCRs. I don't believe my board is very knowledgable about these matters and our Association doesn't have money to consult attorneys. With that being said there are past and current board members who are arrogant know-it-alls. I don't nitpick the board about insignificant stuff but I pay close attention to the financials and fair treatment to the members. I try to only speak up about the important stuff. But sometimes it's hard for me to keep my mouth shut.😊

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

If you're attending the meetings, paying attention, and asking pertinent questions, and not just whining all the time with no positive suggestions to offer, then I think most boards will be willing to listen to what you have to say. Sure there are really bad boards with power-hungry ego-driven personalities who only see a threat to their entrenched power. I think, though, there are also plenty of HOAs where the existing boards appreciate that more people are willing to get involved. There's so much apathy that they'd welcome you with open arms. I even think some of the apathetic owners do pay attention to what's going on, just not enough to get involved themselves, and they, too, like to see new people getting involved. The apathy of most becomes a real problem only when a board is going rogue and there aren't enough owners who care enough to right the ship.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

Quote:

We always have a presence at each open meeting and ask tough, fair, poimted, polite questions. These are ususally met with either a tirade or "Thank you we'll look into that" or "we know what we're doing". Our board has been in office perhaps 10 years and has divided the community into unquestioned supporters and "trouble makers"./

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 07/04/2015 5:37 PM
If you're attending the meetings, paying attention, and asking pertinent questions, and not just whining all the time with no positive suggestions to offer,

More(incorrect) assumpions!

then I think most boards will be willing to listen to what you have to say. Sure there are really bad boards with power-hungry ego-driven personalities who only see a threat to their entrenched power.

And we have one!

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EdwardC1 on 07/05/2015 12:44 AM

Posted By GenoS on 07/04/2015 5:37 PM
If you're attending the meetings, paying attention, and asking pertinent questions, and not just whining all the time with no positive suggestions to offer,

More (incorrect) assumpions!

And we have one!

ThomasC11 (California)
Posts: 210

Posted:

Relax a bit Ed, people are only trying to help.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

I for one would like to know what issues Edward has with his boardcothercthan his view they are driven by ego?

And perhaps we might be told what sort of "pointed" questions are being asked at the monthly meetings?

Edward's assertion homeowners being unable to spontaneously express their views at meeting fails to serve as a "real" open meeting flys in the face of what takes place on most properties. This is in fact a open board meeting not a meeting of the homeowners.

The board has been in power for 10 years in most cases through elections. Edward suggests his group has a presence at each meeting. My question out of 400 or so owners what number of owners makes up this dissenting presence?

Without details impossible to determine whether Edward has a legitimate beef or simply disagrees with the board's response to his concerns and questions.

And I agree with the suggestion that change requires a great deal of effort when necessary. A level of effort many people simply cannot or will not put in.
From the information Edward has provided thus far difficult to tell his role in all of this.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 07/05/2015 4:33 AM
I for one would like to know what issues Edward has with his boardcothercthan his view they are driven by ego?

And perhaps we might be told what sort of "pointed" questions are being asked at the monthly meetings?

Edward's assertion homeowners being unable to spontaneously express their views at meeting fails to serve as a "real" open meeting flys in the face of what takes place on most properties. This is in fact a open board meeting not a meeting of the homeowners.

The board has been in power for 10 years in most cases through elections. Edward suggests his group has a presence at each meeting. My question out of 400 or so owners what number of owners makes up this dissenting presence?

Without details impossible to determine whether Edward has a legitimate beef or simply disagrees with the board's response to his concerns and questions.

And I agree with the suggestion that change requires a great deal of effort when necessary. A level of effort many people simply cannot or will not put in.
From the information Edward has provided thus far difficult to tell his role in all of this.

JonD1,
I respectfully ask you how specifically a member could go about getting a response from the board regarding HOA issues. Or just having a dialogue about issues and concerns? What is the process in your HOA? I believe you have stated your HOA does not have open board meetings.

Also how did you change the boards membership? What was your specific process?

I would find this helpful as I think other posters might too. I know that Tim started a newsletter and Kerry gathered support from others and formulated a plan. Maybe you have addressed this in a previous post but may be worthwhile to repeat especially to those of us living in HOAs with no open board meetings. Thanks.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Banks

While addressed to JON. I will tell you our 18 month saga.

500, $250 to $300K, single homes on 1/4 acre lots. Each owner maintained their own property. All kinds of amenities (pool, tennis, basketball, ball fields, bike paths, etc.). $700 per year HOA dues.

Overall, all were happy with or at least apathetic toward our BOD. Our Covenants allowed for architectural changes if one applied to the ARC (Architectural Review Board) and they approved the changes. A group of owners got together after realizing they had all been turned down for storage sheds. Sheds were allowed by the Covenants but the ARC had never approved a single one. The "shedders" hired an attorney who sent a letter to the ARC/BOD saying that their refusal of each request constituted a ban and that was not allowed. The President of the BOD advised the ARC/BOD to ignore the letter. Two (of the 7) members on the BOD were not happy with that head in the sand approach. They requested the HOA Attorney review the situation. The President fought this but it happened. The HOA attorney said the ARC/BOD was wrong in turning down every single application for a shed and if the "shedders" pursued it, the BOD would lose. Well this began heated discussions among the ARC/BOD and owners. The President said let the "shedders" sue. It will be tied up in court for years. BOD votes were 5-2 and 4-3 against the BOD being proactive. Meaning they took the let us wait until the "shedders" sue approach.

Two of the BOD members were opposed to the do nothing attitude so they gathered others and formed a committee of like minded people. I was on the ARC and I joined them. I was fired from the ARC for this. Our goal was to elect sympathizers to the BOD. We raised $1,200.00 for legal advice to do it properly. We faced one main hurdle. There had never been a Quorum at an Annual Meeting. In SC the quorum reduces by 50% but another story. We put together a two page document outlining the arrogance of the BOD in ignoring the HOA attorneys advice and opening themselves up for a legal battle. We added copies of the BOD Minutes showing votes on the subject so all knew how each voted.

We went door to door to chat with neighbors. Some slammed the door in our faces. We talked about the issue and asked for their proxy. We set up information tables in the clubhouse parking lot. We had small informational meetings. This went on for about 6 months, getting very hot and heavy 30 days before the Annual Meeting/election. For the first time a Quorum was established and the committee got two sympathizers elected. The BOD was now the President, two who always voted with him (we called them his harem....lol), two who mainly followed the President but not always, and two newbies. A BOD Officer's election was held and the existing President lost 4 to 3. He was still on the BOD and had a vote but at least he was marginalized. Prior to the the next annual meeting the committee worked again to gather proxies. The former President saw the handwriting on the wall and resigned prior to the Annual Meeting as did one of his harem.

It took six months of hard work to get this done. Knocking on doors. Manning the tables. Meetings, etc. It can not be wished for. It must be earned.

PS

Several ARC Members resigned, several were fired, and new owners were put on the ARC. They set up a sub-committee which drew up very strict guidelines for the type sheds that would be allowed. The guidelines were so strict, that few did it.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

I'm feeling beleaguered here!

I asked for help and then am being asked to justified what I have or have not done!! This is not giving help, people.

I believe that perhaps some of you are trying to better understand what my board is like so you can offer better advice, but I suggest you simply take my statements at face value rather than judge my actions.

However, I will post some examples of what my board does/does not do in another post.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

OPEN MEETINGS...

"An open meeting is a formally announced meeting of the association’s governing body (usually called a board of directors) at which the board (as opposed to the owners) takes
binding votes."

We have 8-10 such meetings per year, including the election meeting.

"Although the law entitles owners to be present, participation by the unit owners in an open meeting is at the discretion of the board unless the by-laws provide otherwise."

(The quoted material id from the NJ Division of Community Affairs.)

Our board also has 2-3 "workshops" per month that are open in the above sense.

Anyone who wishes to address the board must ask to be added to the agenda. The board is not required to respond to question from residents not do they need to tell the truth. Example: we found out that the board had denied getting solar power for the clubhouse. When asked at a workshop, here is what the asking resident reported:

"Looked me right in the face and lied. They said, 'We tried and tried. We would have loved to be able to put up panels but were told by all the companies (including GeoGenics) that it just wouldn't be feasible'. They even contradicted themselves, because after admitting to me that GeoGenics had indeed suggested a car port type structure in the parking lot, Rudy went on to rant about his car being damaged twice in the parking lot (by accident apparently from careless drivers) and that the number of poles necessary to support a cart port type structure would create a hazard with everyone driving into them!"

Another example. The board member who was ousted from office had bee the guy managing the board's email facility. He was arrogant and unresponsive and we felt that that was why he was ousted. Guess who's still running the email facility!!

On a personal note, I am not in "good health" and have limited mobility. So my activities are limited to emails.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EdwardC1 on 07/05/2015 8:44 AM
OPEN MEETINGS...

"An open meeting is a formally announced meeting of the association’s governing body (usually called a board of directors) at which the board (as opposed to the owners) takes
binding votes."

We have 8-10 such meetings per year, including the election meeting.

"Although the law entitles owners to be present, participation by the unit owners in an open meeting is at the discretion of the board unless the by-laws provide otherwise."

(The quoted material id from the NJ Division of Community Affairs.)

Our board also has 2-3 "workshops" per month that are open in the above sense.

Anyone who wishes to address the board must ask to be added to the agenda. The board is not required to respond to question from residents not do they need to tell the truth. Example: we found out that the board had denied getting solar power for the clubhouse. When asked at a workshop, here is what the asking resident reported:

"Looked me right in the face and lied. They said, 'We tried and tried. We would have loved to be able to put up panels but were told by all the companies (including GeoGenics) that it just wouldn't be feasible'. They even contradicted themselves, because after admitting to me that GeoGenics had indeed suggested a car port type structure in the parking lot, Rudy went on to rant about his car being damaged twice in the parking lot (by accident apparently from careless drivers) and that the number of poles necessary to support a cart port type structure would create a hazard with everyone driving into them!"

Another example. The board member who was ousted from office had bee the guy managing the board's email facility. He was arrogant and unresponsive and we felt that that was why he was ousted. Guess who's still running the email facility!!

On a personal note, I am not in "good health" and have limited mobility. So my activities are limited to emails.

Edward as to your suggestion everyone accept your version at face value and simply respond speaking for myself, that does not work for me. Your claims of having some ego driven board depends on your perception of what should be versus what you expect. Are your de,ands reasonable? Do you have any real support? Are your issues valid?

Your board does in fact hold open meetings regardless of how YOU characterize them. Having items placed on an agenda for discussion is not in my view out of line. Nor is it improper for the board meeting to be used to conduct board business.

The examples you have provided to support your negative view of your board fall short for me to see them as some power hungry group.
There was a difference of opinion as to solarower being installed. Simply because a board operates or makes decisions contrary to your wishes and views does not make them power hungry.
And the e-mail service and who over sees that well there could be several reasons why that continues as is.
If these are your most powerful examples of your board's misbehavior I must be missing something.

They hold 8-10 open meetings per year along with an election meeting. On top of that they hold 2 workshops per month allowing owners to attend.
Just where is the rub?
Simply because their version of an open meeting does not line up with yours does not place them at fault.
My guess most HOAs operate in a similar fashion.

Let's get to where the rubber hits the road Edward, what is it you really want? I doubt this has anything to do about meeting protocol or who handles e-mail

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 07/05/2015 1:41 PM

Edward as to your suggestion everyone accept your version at face value and simply respond speaking for myself, that does not work for me. Your claims of having some ego driven board depends on your perception of what should be versus what you expect. Are your de,ands reasonable? Do you have any real support? Are your issues valid?

Your board does in fact hold open meetings regardless of how YOU characterize them. Having items placed on an agenda for discussion is not in my view out of line. Nor is it improper for the board meeting to be used to conduct board business.

The examples you have provided to support your negative view of your board fall short for me to see them as some power hungry group.
There was a difference of opinion as to solarower being installed. Simply because a board operates or makes decisions contrary to your wishes and views does not make them power hungry.
And the e-mail service and who over sees that well there could be several reasons why that continues as is.
If these are your most powerful examples of your board's misbehavior I must be missing something.

They hold 8-10 open meetings per year along with an election meeting. On top of that they hold 2 workshops per month allowing owners to attend.
Just where is the rub?
Simply because their version of an open meeting does not line up with yours does not place them at fault.
My guess most HOAs operate in a similar fashion.

Let's get to where the rubber hits the road Edward, what is it you really want? I doubt this has anything to do about meeting protocol or who handles e-mail

Good question.

EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90

Posted:

OK, I give up.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

"And I agree with the suggestion that change requires a great deal of effort when necessary. A level of effort many people simply cannot or will not put in.
From the information Edward has provided thus far difficult to tell his role in all of this."

So Edward seems to have decided he reached his limit in what level of explanation was asked of him.
Just accept his version " at face value" or he won't participate.

Edward's board holds 8-10 meetings per year plus an election meeting plus 2 workshops per month so 24 more gatherings.
Yet Edward sees this as not enough because those meetings are not held as he sees fit.

Seems Edward has his way and everyone needs to nod in agreement or else.

When asked what he really wanted Edward decides he's had enough. So much for effort.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

It sounds like Edward's board does a pretty good job, actually, of holding open meetings AND workshops to boot. There are a lot of people who would kill for a board like that. That's no guarantee that things will get done in line with everyone's individual wants, needs and expectations, of course, but it sounds like a perfect setup for people to begin to get involved and make changes (with enough other people in your corner willing to do some of the work).

I feel genuinely bad for Edward. A long time ago I, too, lived in New Jersey. But that's not the real reason I feel bad for him. More importantly, I think he has unrealistic expectations piled on top of an imperfect understanding of things, starting with what constitutes an "open board meeting". If you don't even grasp what that means then you're only at the beginning of things that are going to leave you frustrated and angry.

I wish him well. Apparently he has deleted his registration here.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

An open BOD meeting to some says they can say anything they want, about anything, and at any time. I believe that is called chaos.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

"I guess it depends on the definition, but residents can attend "meetings of the members" and "workshops" but cannot speak spontaneously from the floor. "
Well under what most people know to be an open board meeting this would be an open meeting regardless of Edward's definition.

Geno, I think you covered the obvious hurdles Edward has in understanding and accepting normal practice in most HOAs.

Appears he is not interest in hearing any of this.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

In CA, the Open Meeting Act clearly states that the Board must schedule an open forum at board meetings on the agenda, but gives the board lots of latitude about how Owners speech may be limited.

Maybe there are U.S. states where the HOA legislation says Owners can speak at any time while the board conducts business. Which ones permit that kind of chaos?

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