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JpG (North Carolina)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Hi - we live in a 8 lot development with 5 owners - a couple owners own more than one lot.
Our house is situated approx 500' from the road behind trees and such that only the roof is visible. Lot
size is 6.5 acres. We've lived there 4 years and have never had an HOA meeting, dues, letter,
etc. Our HOA rules clearly state that no-one is allowed to have any animal other than pet dog,
cat or bird.
Not being smart about HOAs, we decided to ignore the rule and get a pair of pygmy goats,
4 rabbits and 5 ducks with the goal of providing more of our own food in addition to
our vegetable garden. All are kept in a fenced area on the side of our house that
can only be seen if you drive the 500' onto our property down our personal driveway.
We have been informed by a neighbor who cannot see them from any point on his property
that we are in clear violation. BTW - the rest of the neighbors can not see them either as
we have 100' of woods on that side of the house. We are not in violation of NC or county
laws regarding the animals. We own our home outright - have the deed in the safe.
What is the worst that can happen to us from our HOA here in NC? We believe in freedom, but
don't want to be stupid legally or financially.

Thank you for any advice or recommendations.

Newbie - JpG
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
JpG

First of all await anything legal (letter, violation notice, etc.) before being concerned about what a neighbor said.

That said, you violated the documents (which you admit you did) so if push comes to shove be prepared to lose.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
"Thank you for any advice or recommendations." :

Just for starters, for each of the herd maybe you could buy online Service Animal certifications along with a Service Animal vest for each one. Expect to have to work up some physical or mental disabilities that are broad enough to require for no less than the ENTIRE herd, accommodation (exemption from restrictions ) to the point of undue hardship. It is kind of you to recognize that many lawyers & related professionals have fought and died for the right of every American to litigate until every last buck is spent.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,060
Posted:
Jp,

Typically, any owner (in addition to the Association) may enforce the covenants through the courts.

Worst case, in my opinion, may be that the neighbors come together and activates an Association to deal with this issue. This could lead to assessments, special assessments to pay for legal advice/representation on this issue, additional rules, etc. This could result in monetary penalties for failure to comply with the deed restrictions and, if allowed by State statutes, foreclosure on your property.

2nd worst would be the expense of a legal battle if some neighbor desires to utilize the court system to force compliance with the deed restrictions. Perhaps even paying for the other sides legal expenses.

3rd worst would be publicity over the issue which could have Realtors and potential buyers shy away from the development. This could cause sellers to lower their asking price in order to attract buyers which could then ultimately lower your, and your neighbors, property values.

Keep in mind that the deed restrictions (CC&Rs) are considered a contract between you and your neighbors (who have the same restrictions) that you will follow a specific set of conditions and use of the property. Failure to comply with said contract may result in any or all of the above possible outcomes.

Now, on the flip side of the coin, you could take a wait and see approach to what any one or a group of your neighbors will do. Will they seek to activate the Association, exercise one of their legal options or simply grumble and complain about the neighbors who refuse to comply with the covenants?

JpG (North Carolina)
Posts: 6
Posted:
BobD4 -
Too Hilarious!! My wife and I loved your response! If our goats happen to breed, would you be interested in a "service goat"?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 06/23/2015 6:05 PM
Typically, any owner (in addition to the Association) may enforce the covenants through the courts.


While this is possible, the costs for seeking enforcement through the courts usually starts in the range of $10,000 to $20,000 with no upper limit. Few of your fellow owners will be willing to undertake this expense for something they cannot see from their properties.

Quote:

Worst case, in my opinion, may be that the neighbors come together and activates an Association to deal with this issue. This could lead to assessments, special assessments to pay for legal advice/representation on this issue, additional rules, etc. This could result in monetary penalties for failure to comply with the deed restrictions and, if allowed by State statutes, foreclosure on your property.


This is a real possibility although it might take anywhere from six months to two years to take any meaningful action against you as the HOA has to be resuscitated. During that time neighbors who were gung ho about throwing the book at you may run out of steam and let the matter drop.

Quote:

2nd worst would be the expense of a legal battle if some neighbor desires to utilize the court system to force compliance with the deed restrictions. Perhaps even paying for the other sides legal expenses.


While possible, I find it best not get my undies all bunched up until I see some concrete evidence that legal action is going to commence. A letter from a lawyer is evidence although threats are cheap. A process server at your front door is good evidence that the other side is serious.

Quote:

3rd worst would be publicity over the issue which could have Realtors and potential buyers shy away from the development. This could cause sellers to lower their asking price in order to attract buyers which could then ultimately lower your, and your neighbors, property values.


The great thing about this is that it hurts the people making the complaint as well as all your other neighbors. This is certainly something to consider before doing a whack job on covenant violators. It also puts the lie to old argument that covenants protect property values.

Quote:

Now, on the flip side of the coin, you could take a wait and see approach to what any one or a group of your neighbors will do. Will they seek to activate the Association, exercise one of their legal options or simply grumble and complain about the neighbors who refuse to comply with the covenants?


This would be the smartest course of action. Grumbling is easy. Getting an HOA off the ground is not easy. Pursuing legal remedies is neither easy nor cheap.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobD4 on 06/23/2015 5:55 PM
"Thank you for any advice or recommendations." :

Just for starters, for each of the herd maybe you could buy online Service Animal certifications along with a Service Animal vest for each one. Expect to have to work up some physical or mental disabilities that are broad enough to require for no less than the ENTIRE herd, accommodation (exemption from restrictions ) to the point of undue hardship. It is kind of you to recognize that many lawyers & related professionals have fought and died for the right of every American to litigate until every last buck is spent.

lol

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
With 5-10 acre lots and no direct visibility, I doubt you're going to hear from a representative of the association. Breed on my friend.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JpG on 06/23/2015 6:10 PM
BobD4 -
"..If our goats happen to breed, would you be interested in a "service goat"?

Thanks, but we couldn't get it into the country. The only thing allowed in are Taliban criminals sprung from Guantanamo. Is reproduction prohibited by the HOA ?
JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218
Posted:
While our HOA is a bit bigger (63 homes that do not have hardly any land between them; lots average 4,000-5,000sf) we do not allow any farm animal (our city defines what that is; chickens, ducks, goats). We had one particular homeowner that kept a 1-2 dozen chicks in their house. If they had been discreet, we wouldn't have known. But they advertise on Facebook and are ardent and vocal urban farmers. I would just say be discreet. Eventually your neighbors will find out but whatever you do, don't advertise what you are doing. In our case, we ended up fining this homeowner. They sued us and lost in small claims court. Good luck with your little farm.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
I seem to recall reading an opinion that I think came from an appellate court in California involving pygmy goats. The CC&R's allowed pets but not livestock. The HOA argued that goats are livestock but the court held that they were pets because the owners were treating them as pets with no intention of breeding, selling, or eating them.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
JpG,

Since you have only 8 lots with 5 owners you might want to consider trying to amend the CC&R's to allow goats and other animals. Your CC&R's should have some means provided within them for amendments. Typically, 2/3 or 3/4 of the owners can force an amendment through. Because yours are large lots I suspect that you are not the only owner in violation of the covenants and you may be able to find allies in your quest to keep the goats.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
2nd defense (after service animals). Ecological measure to keep grass sheared.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JpG (North Carolina)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Many thanks for all the advice and especially the potential scenarios we may face.
A problem defined is 50% solved.

Best to All -- JpG
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
In addition to the view complaint (if there is one), you might want to prepare your response to complaints about noise and smell. Tell the homeowners how you plan to address those things to minimize the impact and that may calm things down.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
PitA
Posts: 1,416
Posted:
Not being smart about HOAs, we decided to ignore the rule and get a pair of pygmy goats, 4 rabbits and 5 ducks with the goal of providing more of our own food in addition to our vegetable garden.


You VOLUNTARILLY entered into a Covenant with your neighbors.

If the 'rule' in question is contained within, or authorized by, said covenant:

You may receive 'notices of violation'.

You may be 'fined' by the HOA.

You may be 'sued' by the HOA (or an individual HO).

You may be the recipient of a 'court order' to comply.

You may become liable for tens of thousands of dollars of legal fees.

The 'potential' ultimate result of noncompliance may be loss of your home because of foreclosure.

ps. I usually end with the admonition to 'caveat emptor', but, you actually were aware of the 'rule' you choose to ignore
BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002
Posted:
JpG (North Carolina)

The size of your lot would have predicted that upwind/out of sight small livestock would not be a big deal. But as one of our Supreme Court justices quipped about materiality : "How much trouble can be caused by a single goldfish in a bowl ?” ie "Does it go too far ?"

Commenters gave some good advice.

To live elsewhere ? The Summer 2015 current issue of Modern Farmer shows one alternative for those who want to try mixing so called sustainable farming with shared ownership communities. Jay Feldman's article "Where utopia meets suburbia" page 34-37 looks at several such US communities out of 200 listed by something called the Urban Land Institute. Several models in the article show low density but typically urban homes ( ? quarter acre lots but serviced by communal farming activity like a medieval European village.

( Modern Farmer http://modfarm.tumblr.com/
Subscriptions : https://subs.modernfarmer.com/pubs/F9/MFM/MFM_sub_package.jsp?cds_page_id=151822&cds_mag_code=MFM&id=1435413582776&lsid=51780859427038632&vid=1)

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