Questioning our landscape contractor

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MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

I'm new to this forum but can't say enough great things about it. You've all been a font of information for me on all sorts of things.

I was elected to the board last September. All other board members are long-time members (8+ years) and I'm considered the "young whippersnapper" I think though I'm 60. LOL

I'm here in MN. Every spring the board members walk through the association to see what damage the winter has done. The majority of the damage relates to dead shrubs. Our Director of Landscaping makes a list of the shrubs that need to be replaced. He then gives this to our long-time landscape contractor who gives us a proposal.

The proposal came back and I had some questions. I was concerned with the price per small shrub removal/replacement ($75 per), the cost of the "large" plant replacement ($200 per) as well as the cost for "general repairs" which included rock replacement at a few homes, landscaping edging at a few more as well as the removal only of some dead bushes. There were 20 items on the list and the proposal was for $2200.

I asked our Director of Landscaping (and then the board) just for a breakdown of the costs. I did the math on the replacement of the small shrubs and could only get to $60 per shrub (allowing for a 25% profit margin and the use of #5 size shrubs). I asked why there were nine bushes on the "small list" that also comprised the "large list." In effect we were paying twice. I wanted information on exactly what we were going to receive for our $200 replacement on the large shrubs. In other words - how can you justify that cost??? I also wanted a better breakdown on the $2200 proposal. In my mind you were charging me $100 to remove a dead shrub which I could probably remove in five minutes. All I wanted was to understand. As I explained to them, I thought it was my job to at least be able to wrap my arms around those numbers before I voted. It's my duty to the other members.

Well you would have thought I shot his dog. Oh my....I've never seen or heard such vitriol in my life. I think he came very close to calling me the c*** word. I was shocked. The board was not much better. They all felt that the contractor was the best guy ever and would never ever steer them wrong. He could be trusted. He didn't have to explain himself.

Obviously I voted no on the motion. I think that was the first "nay" that was ever recorded by the association. I also asked that my name be listed next to the no. Mainly so member could ask me why I voted no. I think they have a right to know. I was told they couldn't do that. I said I was pretty sure that under Robert's Rules I could. I looked it up and yes I can have my name listed. I have not heard back whether it will be included. I'll see when the minutes come out.

If you've read this far...THANKS! My question to you all is - was I out of line?? I don't think so at all but I guess I need to hear it from people that have probably faced similar situations and are neutral in the fight. I'll also take any suggestions on how to move forward. I've asked the board that we try and get a couple more bids on any project over $4000. I doubt that will fly but I think I'll keep trying.

Again..thanks for any input you have on this as well as all of the other great answers on things I didn't even know I needed to know!!

Mary Ann

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Yes and no you weren't out of line. However, it is sometimes hard to go against the "Status Quo". These people probably did ALOT of hard work to find a decent landscaper. Believe me, they are hard to find. I had some who did not know the difference between a weed and a flower. So to question the landscaping bill kind of slapped them on the face a little. Most likely because you don't know all the backstory of the landscaping decisions.

I fired our lawncare person who was even a member of the HOA. He handed me a bill for some trees and other items that I did not feel needed to be done or reimbursed. He skipped the whole process of getting board approval. Him and the ex president just had a deal between them that he just got what he wanted and never went through the board. Plus the guy was the ex president drug dealer did not help matters any. Many members had complaints about him as well. After that, our HOA re-bids the lawncare contract every year.

On another note... It depends on what kind of bush and how long they were planted on the cost of removal. Once I had to remove some hedges from the front of my window. Dang nearly killed me. The roots were deep and nearly had to tie them to the back of my pickup to rip them out. So not every bush is easy to remove and roots are a real issue if you want to replant. I would want to know the method of removal if it's a dig up job or a chainsaw. If they are digging, then that takes ALOT of effort and the right way to do things. Plus they are probably have to compensate their own workers to do the work. I can see a bush removal costing over $50.

Former HOA President

JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218

Posted:

Mary, I totally understand where you are coming from. Our landscaper changes some outrageous prices (at least to me) for something so simple. We haven't had much plant replacement but on more than one occasion we have had their mowers (or snow removal crews) run over a sprinkler head. Then they have their sprinkler crew fix it and charge us for the repair. Hold on a minute! Why are you charging us for something your crews did. I have caught them in that a few times. The latest thing is that our grass areas were struggling due to lack of water. The MC called them to find out why they hadn't turned on our irrigation system for the year. They immediately turned the system on (their excuse is that they service so many properties it has taken longer than normal to get to our property). In the meantime, the grass because extremely stressed and their mowers even further damaged it with their mowers. Now we have large tracts of brown grass.

In the winter, we have only 2 small areas in the entire association that require snowmelt (the ice melt granules spread to melt ice buildup). They charge us .90 cents per pound for the application. The same snowmelt product costs them .17 cents. However, they spread it on just about every sidewalk and common area in the association. We have explicitly told them not to do this. Not only do they spread it, they put down way too much. So we end up with a bunch of snowmelt on sidewalks that 1) don't need it because of the sun coverage 2) and dogs track through it.

When I talk to the account manager about these issues, he blames it on a language barrier between him and his crews. We have told him repeatedly that we do not care.

The final blow was this year where we have a common area were the grass is infested with weeds, crabgrass, and overall just performing poorly. The board and the landscaping company rep met with a few residents that live in that area. He blamed it all on the amount of kid traffic on the lawn for the poor grass performance (he didn't say anything about the weeds). He said he could fix it but would charge us $800. So we countered with a lower offer. The company's response was fine...we will do all that work for free but we want you do this extra service at the cost of $1500 (which wasn't even mentioned in the original bid). We declined and terminated their contract. Now they are upset that they lost our account (worth about $25K annually including landscaping and snow removal).

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Mary Ann

Have you ever run/owned a business and understand overhead? As an example. If I am a homeowner and I need to replace a bush in my yard. I drive to Lowes, buy a bush, go home, dig out the old, and replace with a new bush, set the old bush by the road for the town to remove, call my wife outside to show her what a great job I did, go inside and have a drink. Simple dollars out of my pocket about $25.

Now let us back it up:

I drive to Lowes. Mileage on my car, insurance on my car, taxes on my car, depreciation on my car, and last but not least, an hour of my time. Now we are somewhere about $50. Now reverse the trip and we are somewhere about $100.

Now I have to dig the bush out and plant the new bush. Now we can add about $25. My time is worth something.

My rough guesstimate is we are now at about $150 for the bush. Yes we can combine some things and save some money like say we do 4 bushes. I might could get the cost down to $100 per bush.

What you say! I should not get paid for my car, time, etc?

My HVAC, electrician, plumber, etc. get paid about $60 for their time, overhead, etc. to come to my house and "look" at the problem. Anything above that and the cost goes up.

I am not saying the relationship between your BOD and suppliers should not be looked at (as all should), but do understand overhead.

Hope this helps.

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

JohnC - yes I have run my own business. And I added every possible overhead expense into my calculations - labor, material, labor burden, mileage, WC and GL insurance, office rental (though he works from home), equipment, gas and then added a profit but still couldn't get to his price. And all I really wanted from the director and/or vendor was a discussion of how he DID get to that number. I was sure I was missing something and fully admitted it. But a discussion was completely out of order in their minds.

MelissaP - I completely agree about what you said about me upsetting the status quo. But "this is the way we've always done and we don't check or question it" doesn't cut it for me. And as I said above, I get that there can be costs that I wasn't seeing. I just wanted them to educate me.

JerryD - I feel ya. Our landscaper also does the irrigation work. OY

Thanks for all of the input!

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Mary setting aside whether or not the cost per bush was reasonable the more important question for me is what type of experience do you expect to have while serving on your board?

The board works by majority rules. If you establish yourself as the odd person out your time will be frustrating and ineffective.

Questioning procedures, practices and routines every step of the way might be seem as problematic to the others serving. My suggestion sit back, listen, learn and determine who is on the board, what each member's role is, who provides positive service, negative service or who simply warms a seat.

If you rush in demanding breakdowns of cost and the profit margin for this landscaper my guess that won't be recieved well.

And one last comment your demand to have your NO vote recorded in the minutes with your name IMO really bush league. Sort of casts everyone else as suspect and you being the LONE RANGER. So now you feel you have the right to demand how the minutes are kept and recorded? Sort of heads you into becoming the odd man out. When you speak soon no one will be listening.

There is a learning curve for serving on a board. Human interaction and response should be one of the required character traits. Or at least you should consider that you have just one vote going forward. I have served on my board for 28 years to be honest, someone coming in for 7 months and questioning how or why things are done probably not going to be taken all that well.

Are you in the landscaping business? And in your business do you provide to your customers how much profit you make on each item or service? Just maybe the board is satisfied with this landscaper, has used them for some time, and finds their prices reasonable. Cheaper is not always better.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Not out of line. You have every right to expect your name to be recorded in the minutes as having cast a "no" vote on the motion. In Florida, it's the law that every director's vote on every motion be recorded.

Yes, you have to "play nice" to a certain extent. But it's YOUR fiduciary duty to make sure, for instance, that money isn't flowing out of your treasury for double-billing. If the others don't want to do theirs, fine, but you have every right to do yours. Educate yourself as much as you can and don't take any guff from other board members who may look on you as an unwelcome intrusion. At the same time, keep it in the back of your mind what's reasonable. You don't want to be the person who questions every single expenditure, but you do want to have a good grasp of what's reasonable so you can better discern when something looks really out of line.

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

JonD - this is not the first board that I have sat on. And before even running for the association board, I went to every monthly meeting for two years. I wanted to hear things 'from the horse's mouth' rather than just read the minutes. Most months I was the only homeowner there. But it was also the reason that I ran. All of the neighbors said 'we need some new blood' so I ran. I have never questioned any other motion that has been brought or other bids that have been presented. All I really wanted was some clarification on the billing. Yes...I would have loved multiple bids but was willing to fore go that. I was NOT looking for a complete breakdown in costs. I just wanted to wrap my head around the proposals. As Geno said below - I felt it was my fiduciary duty in this case. It's close to $10,000 we're talking about. I fully expect to be the odd-man out at various times. I have NO problem with that at all. I will not put aside my principles in order to be on the same side as all of the other. I do think it will be the very rare occasion that I have issues with the process.

As for my own business - my clients never had to worry about my proposals. I listed my billing rate, the estimated hours that it would take me to finish the project, a breakdown of all of my estimated expenses (mileage, travel when needed, supplies) the billing rate and estimated hours of any outside help I needed to complete the project. They had a guarantee that if the estimated hours would go over my estimate by an hour (I always ate an hour because I felt that was an error in MY abilities or estimate) that they would be contacted immediately. I would prepare a "change order" that would reflect our agreed upon hours. When the project was done, they received an invoice with a complete breakdown of the work - how many hours on what aspect of the project, what mileage I accrued, etc. I was very law-firm-esque in my billing practice. It made my clients very happy since we were always on the same page.

Geno - thanks. I feel the same way re: my fiduciary duty. I don't question every expenditure. Just this one so far in that we had no other bids and the proposals were too generic and broad. They very well could have been legitimate costs but since no one will address them, I have no idea.

WillR2 (Colorado)
Posts: 29

Posted:

I can't comment on the cost of landscaping, but on the other issues, you are right. Keep to your agenda of fiscal responsibility. Many of us have been lone voices only to eventually bring folks around to our way of thinking. For me, it is open meetings, long term planning and infrastructure. For another Board member who just left after 10 years on the Board, it was a long list which took her years to get accomplished.

When it comes to recording my no vote by name, I will only do it when there is the chance of litigation. Thus for example, the Board voted to spend some money on the garage, I voted no and left it at that. But if it were something that might be litigated, then I do want to go on record to protect myself.

Unless it is an emergency, anything over $500 with our HOA (we have a budget of over $400,000), gets three bids. Even if we use the same contractor over and over it keeps them on their toes. And believe me, every board member questions expenditures, even the minor ones. It is the way we do business. It is expected, but I guess many HOA's don't do that.

(I have a meeting today. I have three electric bids raining from $987 to 1,395 I expect and am prepared to explain each and justify why my committee is recommending a particular bid - it is not the lowest.)

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

WillR - thanks for the encouragement. It's a little daunting right now but I'm determined to stay true to my convictions. I would like to get that same process here as well. Right now it seems willy-nilly as to when they get multiple bids. We had our driveways worked on last summer. Three bids were arranged and discussed. We're getting a reserve study done and we got 4 bids. But the landscaping seems to be sacred ground for some reason.

I do have a question for you...and for anyone else that might be reading this... Our budget is similar to yours - almost $400,000. At what dollar amount do you do a formal RFP?? $15,000?? $20,000??? I'm fine just getting three bids using an informal scope of work document for things under maybe $10,000 but after that, I'm not so sure. Any advice?? Ideas???

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Not sure about formal RFPs, but I'll just add that you're lucky if you are able to even get 3 bids. We have a hard time with some of our projects of just finding contractors/vendors who are even willing to bid. We're small and we don't generate a ton of business. After getting bids from a local concrete contractor (driveways) over the last few years, and never accepting their bid, they're no longer interested in bidding. It's probably easier in a more heavily populated area. We're not exactly in the middle of Orlando here.

WillR2 (Colorado)
Posts: 29

Posted:

We get formal competitive bids for all work over $500. I am not sure if one would call them informal scope of work bids or RFP's. They include scope of work, warranties, exclusions, payment terms and so forth. It is expected by both us and the vendors we deal with. (The electric bids I mentioned in an earlier post included add-ons they recommended that we did not request.) Prior to work starting, all vendors who do work for us, even on tiny jobs like $100 must provide things like proof of insurance.

We take it one step further. Right now we have a new management company and a new on-site manger. For each project, the on-site manager must do a walk through of work done. For more complicated projects - like the electrical work and some chiller work that is going to be done, a Board member must sign off on the work after looking at each item.

The bids I mentioned earlier were approved after being grilled for 30 minutes by the Board, particularly the treasurer. I expect nothing less. After all, if I can't explain them, then I have not done my job. It also all comes down to respect. I know he is doing his job and I don't take it personally.

We did abandon the competitive process once two weeks ago. One of our two AC units crashed. We are in a high-rise and cannot risk not having AC. Our preventative maintenance contractor did a scope of work/RFP for a project costing about $10,000. We had an emergency open Board meeting and accepted the bid. We felt we could not wait 7 to 10 days to get more bids and then wait 2 more weeks for the new parts to come in. However, based on similar work we did a few years ago, we knew the numbers were reasonable.

We don't have trouble getting bids, but with the housing boom in Denver, we are having trouble getting them as fast as we did a few years ago.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Seems to me getting bids for projects with more than a $500 cost is perhaps a bit of overkill. In the OP"s case you have a landscaper being used for years who gives you a price do you really wish to find someone to underbid them and bring in to now do a portion of that service?

With service providers my main goal is establishing a relationship where BOTH parties benefit. The property gets good service at a reasonable price and is treatled fairly, honestly and appreciated. The contractor is paid for their work, gets a steady customer who then might consider them for any additional related work. This would be a win-win for both parties.

I would not bring in someone else to replace bushes because they were $10 cheaper per bush and risk a long term relationship.

And if you have decent contractors there is no need to keep them on their toes. Sounds rather insulting to me.

We have a tree service. We have hundreds of trees. The cost to remove some trees might exceed $500 would we then require 3 bids each time tree work was needed? No. That does not build relationships. And this same contractor who does our snow removal after a freak October snowfall before his contracted service period began came to our property and cleared the lots taking hours of time for his crew and equipment. And when I asked what the cost for his additional work would be he said nothing lets chalk it up to us having a good working relationship. Maybe in return we should look for someone willing to underbid him next time?

We have an electrician, HVAC, landscaper, snow removal., garbage removal, roofer, all who have serviced our property for years. I just asked our MC to check if the roofer would offer the same price for roofing another building. If so they will be doing the work minus bids.

And getting bids for the sake of getting bids is a waste of everyone's time. To quote "the grass is always greener on the other side till you get over there."

And cheaper or cheapest in the long or short term is not always better.

People work to make money. After that they value being treated fairly, honestly, and being appreciated. That door should swing both ways. In my view the benefits of doing so far outweigh the reduced costs you might find.

WillR2 (Colorado)
Posts: 29

Posted:

Getting a bid doesn't mean one goes with the least expensive. There are other factors to consider. In the case of the bids I mentioned earlier, we did not accept the least expensive bid. When we looked that the scope of work they said we needed, the equipment they were going to install, their references and so forth, we went with a middle bid. Our hope is that we will have a long standing relationship with the vendor.

WillR2 (Colorado)
Posts: 29

Posted:

Also getting bids for the sake of getting bids is a waste of time.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Good for you to question the cost factor, and if the other board members get's offended, too bad. You are not there to make nice to be friends, you are there to make sure your community is taken care of and not ripped off.

I've always felt that landscaping contractors pad the crap out of their work, it's the nature of the beast. And it goes without saying that the longer a contractor works for an organization, the more padding they will put in because they know they can get away with it. And the degree of what they get away with is based upon their own level of greed.

I don't know why anyone would feel that getting other bids is either not necessary or worth the time, maybe I missed something, but to just take the bid from the same contractor without comparing it to others is a serious lack of fiduciary responsibility. And perhaps this attitude of board members is why they do pad the bid.

Perhaps you can suggest when this contract is up that you will do the dirty work to get some other bids for comparison.

GailG4 (Illinois)
Posts: 2

Posted:

Good for you Mary Ann. It's important to know exactly what you are paying for. That is your duty as a board member. You are right in every respect and the rest of the board is looking the other way with the landscaper. It's vital to keep a professional relationship with the contracted services on the board for this very reason. Good that you voted no and it should be reflected in the minutes to protect yourself. Make sure it is. There are votes taken at the meetings for a reason and sometimes you have to be the one to say no and that's okay,
Stand your ground Girl!! Gail

NigelB (Texas)
Posts: 254

Posted:

There's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning contracts and if some board members get offended because they feel their judgement is being questioned, so be it. Board members have a duty to ensure that the funds they are entrusted with are spent wisely.

A case in point - around 18 months ago the landscape contract for our subdivision jumped from around 27K per year to over 50k with the selection of a new landscape company. We are a small community consisting of 230 single family residences our landscape contract covers a detention pond area, a park and front and back entrances. While I questioned the necessity for such an increase at the annual meeting, I did not have an opportunity to do anything about it until I was elected to the board 7 months ago. Looking at the billing I found that the landscape company was submitting bills for irrigation repairs that exceeded the contract approval limit and that those bills were being paid by the management company without any approval from a director. It appeared to me that most of the irrigation repairs were for things that had probably been damaged by the landscaper during their weekly mows.

In reviewing payments to the landscaper, I determined that over $95k had been paid in a 17 month period with over $5k going to irrigation repairs. The contract auto-renewed after one year but one provision of the contract allowed the board to cancel it with a months notice. This we did two months ago. The new landscape contract with a different provider requires the landscaper to fix any damage to the irrigation system caused by them, and the annual contract is about $28k. Thus far the new landscaper is doing a better job that the old one.

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

You guys have all been so incredibly helpful. You don't know how good you've made me feel. It has lifted my spirits immensely.

I think we need to get a REAL process in place. If a project is over $5000 we get three bids using a scope of work so everyone is on the same page. If it's over $15,000 we prepare a formal RFP and get at least three bids. Something along that line. That will have to be my mission while I'm on the board. LOL

Right now we're self-managed. I always thought that was a good thing. Now I'm starting to question it. Some of the board members are unwilling or unable to look for bids for their areas of responsibility. At least with a management company they would be doing at least some of that leg work. But that's a discussion for another day.

Thanks again everybody!

DavidY3 (California)
Posts: 18

Posted:

It will be a tough proposition for you to make to the other board of directors to get multiple bids on a landscaping project because technically the landscaping company the board selected should be the main company doing the landscaping work and projects. If your intent is to get competing bids to use as a bargaining chip then it might work but if your intent is to actually get bids and have another separate company do the planting project, you'll run into issues with the existing landscaper maintaining your grounds. For example, if company B does a planting project and company A has a contract to maintain your association grounds, then which company will warranty the plants if they die within a month? Company B will say it was fine when we planted it, must be company A who didn't maintain it properly. Company A will say we did our job to maintain, and company B didn't plant it or irrigate it properly.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidY3 on 06/12/2015 2:50 PM
It will be a tough proposition for you to make to the other board of directors to get multiple bids on a landscaping project because technically the landscaping company the board selected should be the main company doing the landscaping work and projects. If your intent is to get competing bids to use as a bargaining chip then it might work but if your intent is to actually get bids and have another separate company do the planting project, you'll run into issues with the existing landscaper maintaining your grounds. For example, if company B does a planting project and company A has a contract to maintain your association grounds, then which company will warranty the plants if they die within a month? Company B will say it was fine when we planted it, must be company A who didn't maintain it properly. Company A will say we did our job to maintain, and company B didn't plant it or irrigate it properly.

Good points.

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

DavidY and JohnC - I agree. Those are good things to think about. I think most could be taken care of in any contract language we have with whoever might get the bid. One thing competitive bids would do would make our current contractor try to present a more professional proposal. The vagueness right now is just an open door to issues. I think I'm more than willing to monetize the relationship we have with a contractor. If the bids are close and all presented professionally and completely, the edge can easily go to the current contractor. I would have no issues with that. I've done that in the past with my vendors. I know their work, their quality...they are worth a few extra dollars. But it would force our contractor to actually prepare a proposal that just doesn't say "remove evergreens and large shrubs - $1800" What shrubs? How many? Replace with what? What size plant? All of my initial questions when I started this review. Thanks for making me think more on this.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WillR2 on 06/11/2015 10:57 AM
When it comes to recording my no vote by name, I will only do it when there is the chance of litigation. Thus for example, the Board voted to spend some money on the garage, I voted no and left it at that. But if it were something that might be litigated, then I do want to go on record to protect myself.

Two thumbs up.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Hi Mary

Here's our story. Grounds maintenance is the most visible service we provide. It's also the most emotional. Everyone has an opinion, not just board members.

When we decided to make a change, we formed a committee to custom write our own RFP for a 3-year contract. We can get out of the contract early for non-performance, but the pricing is locked down for 3 years. Contractor knows that if they do a good job, it's not going to get re-bid each year.

We got 6 bids. Wound up choosing the same co that does our snow removal. Not a deciding factor, but we thought we would be a more important customer - especially since we would no longer be a seasonal client and we would provide cash flow every month into their operation.

What we learned. Took us several months to write and approve the RFP. It almost didn't matter what we put in the RFP. For all our attempts to detail what we wanted done, the landscaper sends in crews that don't customize performance for each client. You get what level of service they provide, period. If we were big, maybe things would be different, but we aren't.

We are in the first year of the contract. As we see it, this is our shake-out year, where we learn what we get for the price we are paying. We have already decided that before next year, we'll have a sit down with the contractor and tweak some things. Tweaking means pulling those things out of the contract that they aren't doing that well. We'll find someone else to do custom projects.

So unlike others here, we are moving away from the one company does everything approach and getting more specialized. We now have an arborist, a tree company, a lawn maintenance company, a landscape designer, and a guy who does odd jobs like soiling and seeding small patches.

We don't think we will ever get away from the problem of the contractor who creates the problem wanting to be paid for fixing it. You learn fairly quickly what you get for what you are paying - and overall, it's a price you are willing to pay or it isn't.

I applaud you for focusing on fiscal responsibility. Double billing should always be challenged. We have found that the biggest unknown is service level, and that's a lot harder to figure out.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Seems to me Mary continues to move the goal posts with every post.

First all she wanted was clarification. I just have to wonder how many service providers YOU use give you a breakdown of their costs and their profit margin? Our's don't. Gee how much does that bush cost you wholesale? And your markup to us is? And you workers hourly rate is how much? And just what do you actually pay them? And what did your tools cost you? And how much insurance do you pay? As a customer do you have the right to ask and do they have the right to refuse to answer? We don't ask. We ask for a price and judge whether it is reasonable or not.

Then the proposal was $2,200 and then grew to $10,000.

Now Mary simply wants to install HER idea of when bids should be sought at what dollar amounts and under what terms. This after 7 months serving on her board.

And most recently, Mary suggests she would in fact have no problem paying MORE should the service provided be superior in quality. So just what was the fuss all about in the first place over $2,000. And how would she judge the performance of this landscaper better than those who have served a minimum of 8 years? Just maybe this contractor does a good job in their view.

But again Mary would demand a more detailed explanation over what exactly will be done, why, and at what cost. This is replacing some dead bushes on the property. Just how "professional" a proposal do you require for a $2,200 project?

My guess from the response of the board members to Mary this was not her first situation in which her way would surely be better. And her demand SHE have her name recorded in the minutes as the one opposing vote suggests to me her willingness to alienate herself from this other members of her board if she hasn't accomplished that already.

My guess as a self managed property this board has enough on their plate without adding more. And despite the view of neighbors who think the board needs new blood while they themselves sit idly by, ( while suggesting others should run) perhaps the demand for 3 bids on every project does not offer any benefit in the board's view.

And the naive belief that bringing a MC, with that added cost, to help resolve these issues because they would then do some of the legwork suggests to me Mary has a lot to learn.

Funny you have a volunteer board who make the effort to serve their community and all they as asked to do is more work and give more of their time and complicate the process further. And you the wonder why those demands are not met with open arms?

Getting bids for the sake of getting bids or in an effort to fulfill what you think is your "fiduciary" duty can be a huge unnecessary waste of time. And demanding others do so might make you not the most popular person on the board and an ineffective occupant of a board position.

Majority rules and if you can't find support for your methods among those serving chances are you are in line to accomplish very little.

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

NpS - Some great info in your response. Here in MN it sort of makes sense to have one contractor handle the grass cutting and snow removal. We basically have five months of each with two other months that could go either way. I would LOVE to have an arborist for our trees and shrubs. Right now the guys just come in and trim them any which way. There is no pruning done at all - just trimming. And now after 12 years, the shrubs are dying left and right because they were never properly taken care of. I'm intrigued by the idea of separate vendors for different functions. Hmmmmm Food for thought.

JonD - at first I was confused about me moving the goal posts but then I looked back over my responses and see where that could have happened. Currently we have two proposals for shrub emplacement and /or repair from the contractor totaling close to $10,000. One is for the replacement of what I'll call the "smaller" shrubs at $75/shrub ($6000) the other covers "landscape repair" ($2200) and removal of large bushes ($1800). Hopefully that clarifies that issue.

I think I would like to present to the board the idea that we set up a process where we receive bids. Set some dollar limits on things. Get multiple bids on services over a certain amount. From what I've read here from other posters, those are processes and practices that they all have in place. Whether they accept the idea now or in the future I think it is worth the discussion. Especially for services of close to 1/3 of our budget. I may never get my ideas through...but I'm going to keep trying (mostly thanks to some of the support I've gotten here).

If the multiple bids are close, sure I'm willing to say - "hey...he's been a great vendor, we can use him again." However, his service has not been stellar. 95% of the complaints in our annual survey deal with the lawncare and snow removal. And now that we have the whole issue with the double-billing I'm not really willing to give him the benefit of the "relationship money." I'm 99% sure that this double-billing has been going on for years. His proposal seemed to indicate that since he used the language "as we've always done in the past." I'll find out on Monday when I meet with the president.

As I mentioned before - this is the very first motion to which I've had objections. Every other motion where money was involved, there have been multiple bids where we've been able to discuss the merits of each. I don't think on any of them we've picked the lowest bidder. We always picked the one that gave us the biggest bang for our buck. With this motion, we had one bid with questionable pricing and obvious double-billing. You cannot tell me that YOU would vote for something like that.

I have never said a thing about using a managing company. As you say...I don't have a clue as to what they offer. But if they did some of the legwork and we would have to review their work it might be an option. I know it's something that is not a popular idea here but I truly know nothing about having one. One suggestion we've had here is to form a committee of people that do some of the legwork of finding contractors, doing a scope of work, preparing an RFP. We have a wide variety of backgrounds of people that we could tap into. It would take pressure off board members if they don't have the time and resources to find multiple vendors.

We have a wonderful volunteer community. Many people have sat on the board or currently serve on the steering committee or just do chores around the place. All of it helps keep our dues low. I would never ever say that any one here sits idly by.

My desire to have my name listed as a "nay" has to do with any potential litigation - as WillR said above. Right now the board is bordering on a breach of fiduciary duty in that they willing approved proposals where there was potential fraud involved. I pointed out to them three times - once in writing and twice at the meeting that they were approving the proposals as written - double billing and all. They all voted in favor. You don't think I want to make sure my a$$ is covered when some home owner finds out about this and threatens to sue?? Sorry...I'm covering my a$$. There is also potential breach in that no one ever reviewed the invoices to check for things like this. Would anyone really sue- I highly doubt it. But you never know!

I know that majority rules. I know I will be the lone dissenter on a few things. But that's not going to stop me from trying.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Mary I was making a sincere effort to offer you advice but it has become clear to me you never had a real desire to work within the board rather you would prefer to have it done YOUR way.

Case in point your comments below. After 7 months your view is remaining members of the board are "bordering on breaching their fiduciary duty"
as YOU see it. Sorts of makes any real cooperative effort nearly impossible. NO? And despite your effort to point this out they failed to follow your instructions. Are they slow? Ignorant? Suffering the early stages of communal dementia? And who wouldn't like to be lectured as to their failings?

And if some homeowner finds out....... My guess you will have a real tough time holding in the fact you voted no in an attempt to save the honor of the board and just how all the others are failing at their jobs.

I was wondering why one member became so irate at your suggestions did they have some violent tendencies? Surely, if would have nothing to do with your approach and desire to control what is done,how and why.

"Gee I had to vote NO because we might be facing litigation over agreeing to a landscaping proposal and I was the ONLY board member with enough honesty and integrity to uphold my fiduciary duty." " The rest of the board members just won't do it my way so I had to cover my a$$ because protecting myself is most important to me." SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES?

So as you say below. Quite clear you have no regard or respect for those serving.

"My desire to have my name listed as a "nay" has to do with any potential litigation - as WillR said above. Right now the board is bordering on a breach of fiduciary duty in that they willing approved proposals where there was potential fraud involved. I pointed out to them three times - once in writing and twice at the meeting that they were approving the proposals as written - double billing and all. They all voted in favor. You don't think I want to make sure my a$$ is covered when some home owner finds out about this and threatens to sue?? Sorry...I'm covering my a$$. There is also potential breach in that no one ever reviewed the invoices to check for things like this. Would anyone really sue- I highly doubt it. But you never know! "

I wish your community and your board good luck.

Sooner or later people will show you who and what they really are. You should then believe what you see and act accordingly.

JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218

Posted:

I am in the HOA that sent a contract termination letter to our current landscaping company. It was set to end 30 Jun. However, on Friday, they sent us notice that they quit immediately because of non-payment of services. A check of our records show we are current on all monthly charges and we have paid recent invoices for sprinkler repair and storm damage removal. They claim there are $6000 in outstanding invoices that due payment. Also, we believe that we caught them in several lies about services they claim to have provided but we have proven they havent. We had already decided that we were going to ask for a credit for those services (they agree they will owe us a credit) and have our new landscaping company perform those missed services. I am actually glad they quit.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 06/13/2015 11:26 AM
... And her demand SHE have her name recorded in the minutes as the one opposing vote suggests to me her willingness to alienate herself from this other members of her board if she hasn't accomplished that already.

You could be right on everything in your recent posts, but rather than impugn her motives on this one point, at least, can we agree that directors should, at a bare minimum, follow the law?

Florida Statutes (2014) 720.303(b), quote:

"A vote or abstention from voting on each matter voted upon for each director present at a board meeting must be recorded in the minutes."

I think she deserves support for insisting that the law be followed by her board, whether she's worried about the potential for future litigation or aliens who will judge her based on her voting record. The law is clear. Her reasons are irrelevant. And I say this knowing full well that her litigation concerns are probably unfounded. It just doesn't matter, though.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 06/13/2015 8:02 PM

Geno if I were to agree with your viewpoint it would only result in both of us then being wrong.

As the quote you seem to rely on applies to Florida and Mary I believe resides in Minnesota not sure how you make that connection. And as her board members balked at her demand not sure what is required or is standard operating procedure for their board in their HOA in Minnesota.

Sifting through the details Mary has provided and the version she thinks puts her in the best light it would be my view Mary's actions have been planned and calculated. "Bordering on breaching their fiduciary duty" " potential fraud" these are vague accusations used to imply there MIGHT be something wrong or there might not be. Let's go with the worst possibility. Because that puts the other members of the board in the worst possible light whether accurate or not. What a positive addition to their board. In the end, however this ends these folks will remain as your neighbors. You know the folks who may have allowed fraud to occur.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 06/13/2015 11:26 AM
Seems to me Mary continues to move the goal posts with every post.

First all she wanted was clarification. I just have to wonder how many service providers YOU use give you a breakdown of their costs and their profit margin? Our's don't. Gee how much does that bush cost you wholesale? And your markup to us is? And you workers hourly rate is how much? And just what do you actually pay them? And what did your tools cost you? And how much insurance do you pay? As a customer do you have the right to ask and do they have the right to refuse to answer? We don't ask. We ask for a price and judge whether it is reasonable or not.

Then the proposal was $2,200 and then grew to $10,000.

Now Mary simply wants to install HER idea of when bids should be sought at what dollar amounts and under what terms. This after 7 months serving on her board.

And most recently, Mary suggests she would in fact have no problem paying MORE should the service provided be superior in quality. So just what was the fuss all about in the first place over $2,000. And how would she judge the performance of this landscaper better than those who have served a minimum of 8 years? Just maybe this contractor does a good job in their view.

But again Mary would demand a more detailed explanation over what exactly will be done, why, and at what cost. This is replacing some dead bushes on the property. Just how "professional" a proposal do you require for a $2,200 project?

My guess from the response of the board members to Mary this was not her first situation in which her way would surely be better. And her demand SHE have her name recorded in the minutes as the one opposing vote suggests to me her willingness to alienate herself from this other members of her board if she hasn't accomplished that already.

My guess as a self managed property this board has enough on their plate without adding more. And despite the view of neighbors who think the board needs new blood while they themselves sit idly by, ( while suggesting others should run) perhaps the demand for 3 bids on every project does not offer any benefit in the board's view.

And the naive belief that bringing a MC, with that added cost, to help resolve these issues because they would then do some of the legwork suggests to me Mary has a lot to learn.

Funny you have a volunteer board who make the effort to serve their community and all they as asked to do is more work and give more of their time and complicate the process further. And you the wonder why those demands are not met with open arms?

Getting bids for the sake of getting bids or in an effort to fulfill what you think is your "fiduciary" duty can be a huge unnecessary waste of time. And demanding others do so might make you not the most popular person on the board and an ineffective occupant of a board position.

Majority rules and if you can't find support for your methods among those serving chances are you are in line to accomplish very little.

The goal post always moves on this forum! I would anticipate the goal post being moved as we all post comments and questions to the original. What conversation ever stays on track? lol

She just wanted affirmation that her request was not ridiculous and that the boards reactions were. The goal post moved organically when she or someone else brought up what she should do about it.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryW15 on 06/13/2015 12:16 PM
NpS - Some great info in your response. Here in MN it sort of makes sense to have one contractor handle the grass cutting and snow removal. We basically have five months of each with two other months that could go either way. I would LOVE to have an arborist for our trees and shrubs. Right now the guys just come in and trim them any which way. There is no pruning done at all - just trimming. And now after 12 years, the shrubs are dying left and right because they were never properly taken care of. I'm intrigued by the idea of separate vendors for different functions. Hmmmmm Food for thought.

Five years ago, we only had a tree company and a landscape maintenance company. By adding specialized functions from separate service companies, we are paying for a higher level of skill only when we think we need it.

Prime example is mowing and trimming. Basic stuff. Big chunk of the budget. We cut that cost by around 40%. Gave us the money we needed to pay for the higher end services.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 06/14/2015 7:09 AM

I was referring to Mary's posts only. First she wants a detailed breakdown,then she suggests double billing and fraud, then she suggests her views about a bidding policy on projects, then she tells us HER estimate on bush replacement maxes out at $60 while the landscaper quotes a per unit price of $75. This for a bush she would have no trouble removing in 5 minutes or less. Then she claims to have no problem is paying a little more for superior service. While never considering that was exactly what the other board members may have been doing! The landscaper gave them a price they felt it was reasonable they all agreed to accept it. Mary then considers that bordering on breaching their fiduciary duties and allowing fraud.

And Mary wants her name recorded as a no vote counter to what would seem to be board policy or state law to protect herself in the event of litigation. Litigation brought by a homeowner who somehow was made aware of Mary's lone opinion of what took place over a $2,200 landscaping bush replacement. The likelihood of that zero. More likely Mary wishes to use her vote to discredit those others on the board who acted against her wishes.

After just 7 months Mary has become the self appointed judge of proper and required board action. And I have my doubts as to how Mary simply requested more details about the proposal. My guess she attempted to impose her will and in light of the final vote no one agreed with her position.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

To flip the coin over with Jon's comments, we also know that there are contractors who, shall we say, become comfortable that they don't have competition with a certain client. This may cause them to not give discounts that may be available if they knew you were getting other bids.

We also know that Boards won't always take the time for bids if they believe that they are getting a fair price and are have a good working relationship with a contractor. However, even if the Board trusts that they are getting a good price they should verify that trust from time to time.

For example:

Our Board likes our Trash/Recycling service provider. When the contract came up for bid, a majority of the Board wanted to simply renew the contract. It was only because I had already done the work in creating an RFP (request for proposal) and obtained names of various contractors to send them to that the Board said to go ahead and get proposals (I believe that they were appeasing me for having put time in on the RFP and cover letters). Low and behold, we obtained bids that were drastically lower then our current provider. Since we did like our provider, we extended an offer for them to match. End result: we are now paying $10,000 less per year.

Therefore, I do believe that it was good for Mary to question. However, perhaps her approach could have been tempered by offering to get additional bids, vs. simply questioning the bid that someone else received.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 06/14/2015 9:29 AM
To flip the coin over with Jon's comments, we also know that there are contractors who, shall we say, become comfortable that they don't have competition with a certain client. This may cause them to not give discounts that may be available if they knew you were getting other bids.

We also know that Boards won't always take the time for bids if they believe that they are getting a fair price and are have a good working relationship with a contractor. However, even if the Board trusts that they are getting a good price they should verify that trust from time to time.

For example:

Our Board likes our Trash/Recycling service provider. When the contract came up for bid, a majority of the Board wanted to simply renew the contract. It was only because I had already done the work in creating an RFP (request for proposal) and obtained names of various contractors to send them to that the Board said to go ahead and get proposals (I believe that they were appeasing me for having put time in on the RFP and cover letters). Low and behold, we obtained bids that were drastically lower then our current provider. Since we did like our provider, we extended an offer for them to match. End result: we are now paying $10,000 less per year.

Therefore, I do believe that it was good for Mary to question. However, perhaps her approach could have been tempered by offering to get additional bids, vs. simply questioning the bid that someone else received.

Tim, my guess would be we all know of circumstances when oversight and due diligence were both required and beneficial to our communities.
Certainly, one of the duties of board members is to efficiently use the property's funds. We have not increased our assets 16 fold by overpaying for services or wasting funds.

In this case it would seem Mary has issues with the current landscaper and the service they are providing. Her "request" to have more information was not viewed favorably by the other serving as board members. My guess they had their reasons neither being the desire to fail in the fiduciary responsibilities or to support the acceptance of a fraudulent proposal and its payment. As Mary now suggests. My guess it would be Mary's tactics and attempt to manipulate the decisions of this board that resulted in such a strong push back from the remaining board members.

You see once you lay those claims against others you can't walk back off them in the hopes you can build a trusting relationship going forward. Accusing anyone but worse in this case the entire board that they are "bordering on failing as fiduciaries of the HOA" and knowingly permitting fraud is IMO a bad, unproductive and unwise road to take. In the name of getting things done your way.and I have little doubt what Mary has expressed here has somehow been provided to the homeowners in her community in the hopes it might help her obtain her ends.

Certainly, alienating the entire remaining elected board of an HOA with accusations as to their less than acceptable behavior is not beneficial to the community. Understanding this exams accusations might be unfounded.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

In a world of only bean counters, gearheads, and poets:

Mary would be a bean counter;
Tim would be a gearhead; and
Jon would be a poet.

We need them all. They all have their place.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JonD1 on 06/14/2015 10:40 AM

You see once you lay those claims against others you can't walk back off them in the hopes you can build a trusting relationship going forward.

Very true. Based on Mary's own postings, although I agree that she was right to question the issue, it appears that her approach (if she said those things to the Board) may have caused more damage then she had hoped to correct.

Hopefully she can learn from this and approach things differntly.

I have often used the "I know I don't have all the facts and may not be seeing the big picture, but from what I see . . . " approach. This gives the person(s) you're asking an opportunity to save face if they are wrong and an opportunity for you to save face if you are wrong.

MaryW15 (Minnesota)
Posts: 8

Posted:

JonD - Just because we disagree doesn't mean I haven't read all of your posts and learned from them. If the majority posters here had posted the same thing, I would have known that I was completely in the wrong and would have backed off. But since the majority seem to have agreed with me - at least in part I don't feel all that in the wrong. I've taken away something from everyone's post. I asked my questions for a reason. And am grateful for the responses.

The use of the breach is my language only. I have not said a thing like that to our board members or any other owners. Nor will I. This was just me thinking out loud. We do have a fiduciary duty. Whether there failure to review the proposals closely rises to a level of a breach - I doubt it very much.

As for my asking for my name to be marked as a nay - I'm guessing that MN has a statute similar to FL guaranteeing me that right. I haven't looked for it since the President asked me where in Robert's Rules I was granted that right and I sent him and the secretary the reference. As for the litigation part of it - this board was sued before. Long before I came. I know some of the details from the neighbors but not all of them. I know it dealt with decks, construction contractors, etc. I know there was a settlement early on but none of those details. To protect myself against something like that - yes, I will insist. My guess is that it will never happen again.

As for my handling of everything - sure there are things I might have changed. But all I did was send an e-mail objecting to the proposals as presented. They were just too vague. The President actually sent an e-mail agreeing with that. I looked at them for a day or two and noticed the double-billing. Right now...that's probably the thing that concerns me the most. I sent another e-mail pointing that out and reiterating my concern on the other bids. At that point - I did offer to locate additional landscapers. However, the President and the Director of Landscape said that it was too late. I brought up my objections again at the meeting just to make triply sure how I felt (and I'm SURE they did by now!! LOL) They voted yes and I voted no. I'm open to any suggestions on how to do it better. Even from you JonD ;)

If an owner should ask me why I voted no - I would tell them. I was uncomfortable with the vagueness of the bills and some of the pricing and that it looked like the contractor was double-billing us. What AM I suppose to say?? This is THEIR money we're talking about.

As NpS said - I am the bean counter. LOL I'll own that and wear that badge proudly.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryW15 on 06/14/2015 12:24 PM

If an owner should ask me why I voted no - I would tell them. I was uncomfortable with the vagueness of the bills and some of the pricing and that it looked like the contractor was double-billing us. What AM I suppose to say?? This is THEIR money we're talking about.

I would suggest something along the lines of:

"I voted no because I was uncomfortable with the vagueness of the proposal and thought we should get other bids. However, I was outvoted and we move forward with the Boards decision."

No need to throw the other board members under the bus.

CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265

Posted:

You are exactly right as far as I'm concerned Mary Ann. Keep questioning, but do it as politely as possible. I can't think of a good reason why the secretary would prohibit your name being listed as the no vote, other than they simply don't like to be questioned, much like our board.

Our board recently held an executive session (didn't state why they were going into it) then came out and voted to remove me from the grounds committee, sighting negative and disruptive behavior. When asked what negative and disruptive behavior they were referring to they had no response and gave no reference at all. This after I recently questioned the selection of our grounds maintenance company when our board took the grounds committee's recommendation of a company that charged over $10,000 more for the same service we could have received from another nationally reputable company that submitted a bid. Everything the grounds committee did concerning the selection was done through email. When I pushed back and insisted we discuss the matter in an open grounds committee meeting, I was booted off the committee.

Now everything is secretly done through email.

Keep up the good fight and don't let anyone tell you to sit back and observe. The members expect more out of you.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Mary my suggestion to you would be the get your facts straight so you might then avoid attacking people's reputations with comments like,we were doubled billed, there might be fraud, it appeared we were double billed, the board is bordering on failing in their fiduciary duty.

Were you in fact double billed or NOT? Not really all that hard to determine. Do you really think the remaining members of the board turned a blind eye to fraud? If not then don't suggest they did. And how do you voice the opinion the landscaper acted improperly when in fact you don't know for sure?
Maybe, could be, possibly, looked like, bordering, all words not to be used when bringing into question the honesty and integrity of others.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 06/14/2015 12:29 PM

Tim I can see the difference my guess Mary won't bother to consider it. " looked like" and with those two words you bring into question the honesty of those serving on the board AND the landscaper. Does Mary bother to know for sure? Why would that matter. And based on no real knowledge of the landscaping business other than her claim she could remove the same bushes in 5 minutes for sure, ( I would LOVE to see that!) Mary is uncomfortable with the pricing.
Just how many landscaping bids has she priced out?

And I beg to differ with you Mary needs to throw the others under the bus to get her way. Whether her accounts are true or not doesn't really matter.
She is going out of her way to do so. When you bring something up 3 times because the first 2 you failed to get what you wanted no surprise how the board responded.

If only the others on the board were looking out for YOUR money like Mary is. Battling fraud, overpricing, bad service and a board full of irresponsible individuals. No doubt doing God's work.

What you have pointed out Tim is not lost on Mary she just does not care. Her agenda and goals are all that matter. Even if that takes attacking the honesty of everyone else. Whether true or not.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryW15 on 06/14/2015 12:24 PM
The use of the breach is my language only. I have not said a thing like that to our board members or any other owners. Nor will I. This was just me thinking out loud. We do have a fiduciary duty. Whether there failure to review the proposals closely rises to a level of a breach - I doubt it very much.

One of the great things about this site Mary is that you get to test what the responses might be if you present your issues in a certain way. Sure, you can vent here - But when you do, you divide this audience into those who sympathize and those who roll their eyes. Take it for what it is. This is a no-risk place where you can test your approach and then go back to your real HOA and do what you learned here is most likely to work best for your situation.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447

Posted:

Hello, I would like to suggest, and I have not read every word or every writer, that your board adopt some kind of policy and/or procedure that when a project comes up, you obtain a minimum of three (3) bids. My experience is that vendors/contractors who have been affiliated with HOA's for many years, get a little comfortable with their fees. I obtained a bid for my HOA and as soon as the service company found out someone was willing to do the same work for less, they dropped their fee without even being asked!!! Good people business people make smart decisions and HOA is a business.....make no mistake.
JMD

ScottA5 (New York)
Posts: 1

Posted:

Hello all, I am a Landscape Contractor. I have joined this forum to know more designs of landscape and I think this will help me a lot to know more designs.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Scott,

Welcome to the forum.

You may not have noticed, but this thread is 2 years old. It's best not to reactivate old threads.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

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