Are HOAs really this omnipotent?

I've submitted all the HOA documents required by to do a remodel, down to the very last detail. The board ended up rejecting my proposal because they decided that I should install a flood prevention device on my water heater, even though it is not mandatory. They cited a recent flood in our building, but there have been numerous floods of greater magnitude before and they have not mandated anything in the past. It is not in the house rules, CC&Rs, or anything else at the moment. My remodel documents were submitted before the flood anyways, and it was a last-minute request. It doesn't quite make sense that they are imposing this restriction without any kind of meeting to make this mandatory and after an arbitrary third flood in the complex.

The HOA has made other frivolous claims, including that the contractor's workers compensation had a typo that did not specifically say the condominium is listed under workers compensation in the description, EVEN THOUGH THE CERTIFICATE HOLDER BOX LISTS OUR CONDOMINIUM AND THE FORM HAS WC CHECKED. They have also said things like the permits received are not specific enough to do certain things like raise the shower head one foot, even though the permit already includes plumbing. I ended up taking this off the contract completely to appease them.

They have established an executive committee so I don't have to wait another month if I fix these issues and get what they want, but my contractors don't have all the time in the world to wait around. In the event that they still refuse to approve the remodel or that it is delayed even more because of their negligence, I am considering suing them for two or three months of rent ($10,000+), which is how long my remodel has been delayed.

Could I please get some opinions on the matter? Should I sue if my remodel has been delayed even longer? I have a cousin that owns a law firm. He is willing to aid in the lawsuit, free of charge, so I will not have any legal fees.

Mellisa, perhaps I did not explain myself well. I intended to install a flood stop anyways, but with a different plumber after the remodel. Floodstops sometimes require electrical outlets to be moved, and that's not something that all plumbers can do. So, to add floodstops, I am having my general contractor move outlets first. My general contractor is not the one installing the floodstops, so I require two different contracts, one submitted after the other.

Regardless of whether or not I intend to install a floodstop, the HOA does not have grounds to stop my remodel. My understanding is that HOAs are not god–they do not have legal grounds to just say no whenever they want, for whatever reason they want. Your argument is that I should install floodstops, but that's not my issue because I am going to install them anyways.

Your problem is NOT the HOA's problem. They are NOT on your timeline. Sorry but going to be blunt and honest with you. I've built over 25 houses and a home remodeler myself. I know construction and I know HOA's. Your playing your own "God card" here as well. How dare someone hold you up to standards!?

Your going to have a General contractor move outlets??? Are you freaking nuts??? That takes a LICENSED ELECTRICIAN!!! You never EVER hire a general contractor to move electrical nor other licensed trades. You have plumbing issues, you hire a plumber. You have electrical you hire an electrician. You need carpentry you hire Jesus... A general contactor is just that "GENERAL". They specialize in nothing and mean they are going to be NOT responsible for anything.

The HOA has a point of making sure things are done by licensed professionals, they are insured, approved plans, and permits in place. Your shoddy work for the cheap is putting ALL the owners at risk. Your not living there but other people are. They have to be insured and assured the HOA isn't putting their homes in danger. That means making sure there is proper record keeping and paperwork.

I am an electrician and was a HOA president. So if you were in my HOA, I would be giving you the same hard time. Threaten to sue all you want. I would wait on the paperwork for you to do so. What are you going to sue for the right for the HOA to approve work they don't feel is on the up and up? No court is ever going to do that.

You don't understand and seem to be taking offense to all of this.

I HAVE all the permits. I HAVE all the licenses. I HAVE all the contracts. I HAVE all the documentation the CC&Rs ask for. I HAVE all of the documentation the house rules ask for. I HAVE submitted it in a timely manner. You want a plumber and not a general contractor to add the floodstops? Guess what—the board wants my general contractor to do that. They want my general contractor to include floodstops in the plans otherwise they won't approve it. And so my plumber that was going to do it next month no longer has that job.

And here's the part you don't seem to understand.. Floodstops are NOT MANDATORY. PERIOD. It's none of anyone's business whether or not I put them in. I would have put them in earlier if I didn't JUST PURCHASE THE PROPERTY.

The threat of lawsuit is based on the fact that I have been held to standards beyond what anyone else has for their remodels. You don't understand my HOA at all, so stop pretending like being president of one board makes you queen of hoa land. There has been bickering between members of my board for 30 years, so I've been told. The board members hate each other. They are inefficient and incompetent, and I am being dragged down because of it. The last HOA meeting took 4 hours because of all the arguments between the board members.

Your purchasing this property for an investment isn't the HOA's problem either - didn't you read the governing documents BEFORE you bought the unit? If so, you knew or should have known that your HOA board has the power to preapprove certain improvements, and whether you think it's necessary or not, when you brought the unit, you agreed to comply with the rules.

You mentioned other units had had floods before - not having this flood control thing might have been the reason the board now requires this. You might consider asking the board if they'd be willing to take the matter to some sort of alternative dispute resolution program or mediator, if there is such a program in your community. It could be a lot cheaper than a lawsuit and often the mediator can work out an agreement that will make both sides happy. Or go to the next meeting and ask for a hearing where you can present your case in more detail, maybe bringing the contractors along who can answer questions.

Sorry about my typos. Sheila, it looks as though Jl6 DID comply with all of the written guidelines. And in CA, that's all we owners need to do. have NO idea why Melissa is accusing him of shoddy work.

Neither the HOA Board nor an ARC can suddenly"make up" new rules in this state even if you or I or Melissa think it's a good idea. We are NOT HOA gods. Nows maybe your boards in IN or AL can.

Btw, JL6, ARC Guidelines in our high rise require a general to sign off on everything, but the general hires subs like electricians, plumbers, etc.

If you really want to see what happens, go ahead and finish the work per the written guidelines you have. Have it inspected and signed off. What will your HOA board do to you???

Or, as Sheila suggests, consider mediation, which actually is required in CA, but that would take time. Do vista davis-stirling.com.

I DID read the governing documents, AND I have met all requirements. Not only have met, but I have exceeded. For example, the rules require a hardwood floor underlayment of IIC 50. My underlayment was literally the highest rated at IIC73. But that wasn't enough–I had to toss out that and get a different brand of underlayment with IIC73. It's ridiculous.

The other units have had floods before, yes, and the board has still approved other remodels without forcing them to install floodstops. But like I said, I'm installing floodstops anyways! I had a plumber lined up to do work next month! I am complying with the rules 100%. As I said, I have provided all documents and permits and EVERYTHING. There is NOTHING in the house rules that say they can reject a project because they randomly decided to mandate that I had to add floodstops.

LarryB, what an arrogant, bitter fool you are to tell me what to do with my money. I purchased this condo because I plan on moving to the city in two years and did not want to fight the rapidly inflating costs of San Francisco real estate. The board is, in fact, not comprised of resident owners, and I have already been welcomed by the entire community. A few have already committed to handing me their votes, so I look forward to being on the board next year.

The board wants a signed contract before they approve anything, which is frustrating because I would like the elevators padded so that they aren't damaged. I could "just do it," but then the contractors might cause damage and I would be liable. Or, they could fine me. I'm not sure what might happen..

I've been told that people have been fined for unauthorized work on their unit. If I were reported, wouldn't that happen?

The board can force someone to remove the work they did if it is NOT approved. If they owner does NOT comply, the HOA can get their own contractor to do the work and charge the owner for it. It's a the HOA's rate too. Plus if the owner does not pay, then the HOA can lien for the work... So yes the HOA can indeed do something...

Reality check Melissa.

The Board can take them to court and try to force them to just as the Board can take them to court to try and gain access to make repairs, they can't force access anymore than the police can enter your home without a warrant or your permission.

In CA, Crystal, the Board may NOT change ARC rules, requirements, etc. without an open meeting and other requirements plus written notice to al Owners of the new requirement, rule or whatever. This, of course, is to avoid arbitrary decisions by boards.

A few high rises have written requirements for flood prevention or for leak detectors--the vast majority do not. We certainly have had floods too, including one two weeks ago from a clogged common area drain line. This could happen in any high rise. This affected 5 condo units. but we do not require in our ARC Guidelines, any flood protections, leak detectors, etc. I'd say we average -4 floods a year. It's a risk one takes to live in a high rise.

I must say I don't see why there's so much animosity here about the fact that the OP is an investor.

Thank you, Kerry. I appreciate the advice.

Long story short, I need to have my general contractor work on the property before my plumber, which is why I need to have these plans approved before those. The plumbers I've consulted for bids have told me they won't bid until I can get a few things done (change outlets, remove cabinet covers, demo floor for drainage installation, etc.), so I need to get the general work done before the floodstops added.

They have denied my remodel for two months now, citing things that don't make sense (adding the condo as additionally insured on worker's comp). The unit is uninhabitable in its current state, so even if I wanted to live there now, I couldn't. The place really needs to be remodeled. I feel like I'm owed some kind of compensation for the needless delay, which is why I made this thread.

Again, thank you Kerry for the advice and support.

You may be right about me but I lived in northern California in 2006 and 2007. I watched as one buyer after another, like lemmings headed for a cliff, offered ever-higher amounts for homes. I saw couples with $60,000-a-year household incomes pay $500,000 for a 1,000-square-foot row house. The mentality was always that if they do not buy today that the price will be higher tomorrow.

Facilitating these ridiculous sales were the mortgage brokers. They assisted the buyers by misrepresenting material facts to the lenders. (“Misrepresenting material facts” is lawyer lingo for what the rest of us just call “lying their butts off.”) This was a practice in California long before 2006 and did not end with the real-estate meltdown of 2008. As far as I know, not a single mortgage broker has ever been prosecuted for his role in abetting mortgage fraud. As old habits die hard, I have to believe that this still the normal practice in California.

There is mortgage fraud all over your situation. I have never seen a mortgage lender knowingly finance a home that the borrower did not intend to occupy immediately, I have never seen one issue a mortgage for rental property, and I have never seen one knowingly issue a mortgage to someone who lacks the income to make the payments. I strongly suspect that you and your broker knowingly misrepresented your situation to the lender.

I really do not care what you do with your money. But I do care what you do with my money and it was my money that paid to bail out all the reckless borrowers in the last meltdown. When you can pay for your folly with your savings I will shut up but since historically guys like me foot the bill for mortgage fraud, I think I have the right to speak up. I have the right to be bitter when I pay for your fraudulent activity.

BTW, this arrogant fool returned to Arizona and watched the real-estate market implode upon itself. When the time was right, we bought a foreclosed home in Phoenix for about 30% of its previous market value. Even though we put only 3 percent down, we now have more than 50% equity just four years later, thanks to rising values. We refinanced earlier this year to lower our interest rate and our total monthly payments (PITI) are now about $500 for a 1,500-square-foot home with 2-car garage on a quarter-acre lot in a decent neighborhood. And I have no HOA to screw with. So you are right – I am an arrogant fool.

Ann

I think the BOD is being overly cautious to be sure the work is properly done but in the long run this will help protect all. I know if I lived in a high rise, I would be all over being sure the work is done by properly licensed and bonded people. Not by some guy in a flannel shirt I met at an aisle in a big box store.

Each HOA is different. Ours can force you to remove the violation or lien for us doing it. End of my reality versus yours....

This is my takeaway from your spiel.


Excellent. Welcome to HOATalk, where people with no HOA can come and moan about nothing relevant. Feel free to leave the thread whenever.

You know? In the past, when Melissa has asserted this HOA "right," many times, I think she was talking about owners' yards, which may/ may not have been exclusive use common areas or elements (can't remember).

But, Melissa, are you really stating that your current or former Board can send someone inside your residence to tear something out??? (Outside of an emergency?) And that the contracter would actually break in and do the demo or whatever?

The idea that an HOA can enter an individuals property to re mediate something that they deem to be in violation of the governing docs is ludicrous. An entry into property without the consent of the owner is a trespass and likely a criminal act.

While the governing documents might very well state the HOA has a right to remedy a situation they would first have to petition a court to order the offending party to comply with the guidelines, and if the order is not complied with, request a court order to enter the property for the purpose of remedying the situation.

And while "suing an HOA is suing yourself" - so what, any reputable HOA is going to have insurance that will pay the cost of defending a lawsuit, and the homeowner has contributed to the premium for that insurance.

We too have the ability to fine for unauthorized work. It was added because the Prez at the time got angry when people were having work done without pre-authorization. The fine has never been applied - But it's still on the books. The reason it hasn't been applied is because every time it came up for discussion, some board members got uncomfortable about the fine being applied unevenly. Easy for the fine to be there as a scare - much harder to face the consequences of inappropriate fining even when it is on the books.

What I'm trying to get at is that there are two sets of decisions that the reviewing members face. First, whether to approve your request. Second, whether to fine. In our case, there were quite a few who didn't want to fine no matter what the offense.

From all you say, I think you are probably best to forge ahead and let the chips fall where they may.

About 5 years ago my HOA submitted our documents to the association's attorneys for review. In their response they noted a section in our CCRs that permits the association to enter the individual homes for a number of reasons. They said, "Because of the possibility of individual harm and the risk of liability to the association, we recommend that a homeowners association exercise great caution and restraint before it engages in such 'self-help' remedies. We particularly recommend that the association contact us before it procedes with any self-help remedies such as maintenance inside or upon an owner's lot."

You should always obtain your own legal advice, but this is an example of what we were told. Here is the section of our CCRs that the above was in reference to. What may have seemed appropriate and acceptable in 1988 may be seen as much less appropriate, acceptable and reasonable today.

"The Board of Directors of the Association is hereby granted the right, in case of any violation, or breach of any of the restrictions, rights, reservations, limitations, agreements, covenants and conditions herein contained, to enter the residence upon or as to which such violation or breach exists, and abate and remove, at the expense of the owner thereof, any erection, thing or condition that may be or exists thereon contrary to the intent and meaning of the provisions hereof as interpreted by said Board of Directors, and said Board of Directors shall not, by reason thereof, be deemed guilty of any manner of trespass for such entry, abatement or removal."

When we were buying, we noticed this provision right off the bat the first time we saw the CCRs. It struck me as a bit draconian and overreaching. Later on I found out about the attorney's advice and felt relieved. As far as anyone living here today is aware, the HOA has never availed itself of this self-help provision. If we ever get around to our Great Document Cleanup Project, that section will be the first one eliminated, I am sure.

I know I speak the truth when insults are thrown my way. No presumption here. You don't want to wait for the HOA board to approve your plans. Your HOA because of a flood event has to get everything in order. That does take time to do, put things in order. It sounds like your board is in the midst of putting a safeguard or system in place, and unlucky for you, your stuck in a wait game. Since you are such a good person, and I am not, perhaps I should move next to you?