GIVE UP ON HOA'S? HOA FEES VS MORTGAGE

I Realize we all ended up in an HOA for one reason or another. However, my question is if you had a choice an option or an alternative would you rather be enclosed behind your own four property lines? or not? Perhaps the Social Amenities attract you? or the lower cost of Community Shared Amenities such as a pool and spa are a welcome addition to your lifestyle. Maybe you crave the security of a gated Community. Just wondering what makes folks happy or not? In my case the HOA fee keeps going up but the benefits are not in line. So to take just one example in California at least, I could take my the value of my current home principal apply it to a modest maybe even fixer upper home and secure a small loan that would be fixed for 30 years (never going up) and although my home would not be as modern and a lot smaller it would be mine. In a few short years the HOA fees will exceed my mortgage or at least meet it. Not to mention that at some point perhaps I could pay off the mortgage and have no fees what so ever.

It's a decision you have to make for yourself. We have been in our first HOA for less than 2 years and so far we're satisfied. Not 100% satisfied, but enough that we're happy to stay and participate and be involved. Our fees went up almost 10% this year and I'd be lying if I told you we never had a discussion about, "Is what we pay really worth it?"

Our fees will be going up again next year and we will have the conversation again. There are always options.

I did not learn to appreciate my HOA as much until I moved out of it... My HOA house was small (less than 1K square feet). It was a great benefit for me to have access to a pool, a clubhouse, lawncare, and garbage pickup. Especially since it was only $50 at that time. The extra $50 could have gotten me a bigger house if I had put it toward a mortgage instead. However, I would have had no pool, clubhouse, or lawncare.

My non-HOA house I live in now is about twice the size. It does NOT have a pool, clubhouse, or lawncare. I have to pay lawncare to mow around $40 every 2 weeks. My trash pick up is now part of my utility bill and $13. I only get a trash can instead of a dumpster. If I want to throw party, now have to do it in my home. No off-site clubhouse.

Honestly, I would choose living in a HOA again. It is just I realize that a HOA's purpose is for ATRRACTING potential homebuyers. It is NOT to maintain or keep home VALUES. That is a HUGE misconception and one that gives HOA's a bad reputation.

Gertrude

Melissa was right about many liking a specific HOA for its amenities. I specifically chose my present HOA as we have no amenities thus we are not burdened with the cost and endless discussions about such.

I also choose my present HOA as the streets are not private thus we do not have the burden/cost of repairing them.

I also choose my present HOA as all landscaping and all external home maintenance is performed by the HOA.

It is simply pros and cons. Everything comes with both.

If I had a 'do over':

I would prefer to live in a tent in a decent campground than an HOA community.

food for thought:

Did y'all realize that one could contractually waive one's constitutional rights?
(did you know BEFORE you 'bought in')

If I had a 'do over':

I would prefer to live in a tent in a decent campground than an HOA community.

food for thought:

Did y'all realize that one could contractually waive one's constitutional rights?
(did you know BEFORE you 'bought in')

Thank you! for this comment I have been saying this for awhile now it hits the nail on the head for my situation.

Gertrude

Do you own the land the mobile home sits on or is a rent the land situation?

In an HOA it is the BOD/fellow owners that get to make/vote on dues. They do not just rise so one can make more money.

Been living here nearly 30 years. Mortgage is paid off. HOA fees are higher than mortgage payments (which are $0).

Am requesting that my HOA fees get reduced to $0 so that they are not higher than my mortgage payments. Hmmm ... wonder if my request will be approved. Here's hopin.

If I had the means, at my stage of life, I would choose an HOA for the reasons stated above. And the fact that I hugely enjoy urban high rise living, I doubt could find a non-HOA building anywhere!

Not sure if I would have chosen an detached-homes HOA back when we were rearing kids. On the one hand, I very much like the attractive appearance a well-governed HOA provides. On the other hand, back then with kids & otherwise a very busy life, I would not have had the time to participate in governing an HOA. And I would've been unhappy if there was an abusive board that spent my dues carelessly.

If that had happened and the market value of the home was the same or more than what we paid, I would have, as JohnB used to say moooooooove(d).

OR I'd try to find the time to find allies and kick the bums out. That would have been difficult, though, given my other responsibilities back then.

Right now, like NpS, we have 0 mortgage and HOA fees that are in line with other high rises with similar recreational amenities in our excellent location.

ps.

A NYC 'style' co-op (not a condo) does NOT have a HOA as there are no HOs.

Merely corporate owners.

A co-op remains a personal option.

Gertrude

I repeat the question because as I understand it, in most Mobile Home Parks the land is owned by the park owner(s) and they can increase the land rent versus an HOA where fellow members decide.

Which we have discounted as, although possible, not realistic that it's actually being done - on several threads.

since y'all started, food for discussion:

I would have not purchased my home in a HOA. It isn't that I mind the deed restrictions (which are reasonable). The problem with HOAs isn't the concept, it's the execution.

To date, we have paid $6500 over the last 10 years in HOA assessments. The only thing we "use" is the trash collection service. We don't use the amenities. Overall, the owners of this community have paid over $3 million over 10 years time.

I have watched the Board for the last 8 years after the developer turned the community over to the owners. What was once a beautiful family oriented community has turned into a hot mess.

The landscaping is trashed- the common areas are mostly weeds, the trees are dying. The common area palm trees are not trimmed. The HOA sidewalks are black with mold. The landscaping that has been since installed is a homeowner/Board members idea of "professional landscaping" and it looks tacky. No actual professional arborist or landscaper is consulted for planning. I call it "Landscaping by Kmart" because it is clear that the materials that are used come from such. But bear in mind, owners regularly receive letters over their lawn and trees needing trimming and replacement, their sidewalks and driveways needing pressure washing.

The pool house has been remodeled into something that looks like it came out of the 70s- repainted in garish colors that aren't on the community color palette. Owners had no say or vote on it- it was chosen by a Board member who has no experience in design (at least not in this century).

The common areas also now have cameras trained on every possible angle. Prisons have nothing on our camera system. Again, owners had no say in the installation (or cost). Yet to date, the cameras have not been used to "identify" some perpetrator. Which makes me wonder what the cameras are actually being used for.

There are signs posted everywhere and more to come. Again, we have a Board who has decided to plaster warning signs of all nature in common areas and in landscaping. The visual clutter has become astounding. Warning signs for trespassing, towing, neighborhood watch, rules, etc. A military installation has nothing on this HOA when it comes to warning signs.

In the meantime, the entrance sign to the community is in disrepair, the parking lot needs to be resurfaced, the landscaping needs to be replaced...but we have cameras galore, warning signs, and general tackiness.

Then there is the Board controlled ACC. Hand picked by the Board, these folks seems to employ the buddy system. If you are their buddy then you can get anything approved, whether it is a non-palette painting color or scheme, landscaping removal without replacement, landscaping additions where there should be none, etc. If you are not in that clique, you will be held to the original restrictions. This has created a hodge-podge look in a high density housing development.

Then there are Board member pet projects. Rather than correct the deficits, the Board regularly decides to add their own vision of improvements. Those improvements (besides tacky landscaping, cameras everywhere, a tonnage of warning signs, and garish paint jobs) have also ended badly and look like someone's project gone bad (reference anything with "Nailed It"). There has been nothing that ends up looking like an experienced professional did the work.

I have photos of the community when it was new. Sadly, what was a beautiful community looks horrible So no, I didn't get my $6500 investment and the community has not gotten their $3 million investment out of this "deal".

Well said Jim. All HOAs are evil. All board members are tyrants. I had a complaint once, and I didn't get my way - Which proves my point. Things in my HOA just aren't up to my standards - and what we get costs more than I want to pay. I'm so glad we have this site so that we can bitch and moan together. Thanks pardner.

NpS was responding to me, rather than you AnnH5. Yes, I'm afraid NpS is convinced that he is an Apostle of Virtue. It's a personality trait of all tyrants.

Hey, JimR, the purpose of this forum is to be: a positive place for HOA leaders to share ideas and learn. It's a forum to discuss topics concerning our association duties.

I can't see in what way your posts are helping anyone. Perhaps you can give us an explanation about why your posts have any value to HOA leaders or members.

PitA: Talk about Jabberwocky! Your cite above is a mess. This quote doesn't even make sense: "The courts resort to equitable servitudes law, which simply requires the acceptance of a deed in order to bind the home buyer to the CC&Rs sight unseen."

In SC, don't prospective buyers have the opportunity to read the CC&Rs before they code escrow?? Are there some states where buyers actually involuntarily buy into HOAs without seeing the CC&Rs, i.e, "sight unseen?"

ONE: "...equitable servitudes law, which simply requires the acceptance of a deed in order to bind the home buyer to the CC&Rs..." is an actual legal fact - you are bound whether you have read or not (for whatever reason) when you SIGN the deed

TWO: Yes, but misleading. Many first time buyers have no idea of the EXISTANCE of HOAs.
When a RE agent or the seller claims there is none they (naively) 'sign on the dotted line' whereupon ONE comes into play. Yes, the CCRs are 'public documents', but, many buyers do NOT understand Caveat Emptor and believe they are protected by the attorney and/or RE agent.

As per general contract common law: A contract must be fully understood prior to execution or it may be considered null and void.

Equitable servitude assumes that the unknowing signatory receives equivalent value for the signature - if the HOA is poorly run, they DO NOT.

In any event, thanx to HOAs, the 'county' is off the hook for major utilities - said major utilities become VERY VERY expensive down the road for private maintenance since the required vendors are in it for the profit as opposed to the 'county'.

Yes, gov. work may be inefficient, but, private work has a MINIMUM 20% profit built in.

And is taxpayer at large funded.

Then I applaud the states where the seller is required by law to provide all of the relevant docs to the prospective buyers before the escrow is closed. I don't know if SC is one of them.

But I don't think our constitution or certain states' laws forces buyers to actually read the documents, i.e., to educate themselves before they buy houses, cars or dishwashers.

Seconded and thirded. Being involved is the only sure way to influence things. There are no HOA Police that investigate wrongdoing or prosecute rogue boards. There are many humorous definitions of "politics" many of which contain nuggets of truth and wisdom. My favorite definition is one by Hunter S. Thompson, who said, "Politics is the art of controlling your environment". You simply have to get in the milieu to have a say.

Tim,
When we moved into this neighborhood, it was brand new and we liked the amenities. Everything was in pristine condition. Our gradual slide into not wanting to use the amenities probably started when there was a group of foul mouthed teens who used to hang out at the amenities. We didn't want to subject our younger children to it. After that group moved on, the common areas declined to the point of being unpleasant to use. Who wants to picnic in weeds and ant hills? The playground equipment has been cleaned once in 10 years and is surrounded by weeds. The court nets are filthy and have never been cleaned. So it isn't that we bought in a community with amenities that we never wanted to use. The amenities are simply too unpleasant to use. Many of these issues have been pointed out to the Board but rather than correct the problems, they continue to engage in their own pet projects and agendas.

The decline in the quality and lack of maintenance started on Day 1 of the owners taking control of the Board from the Developer. The first year was spent with the Board trying to get a handle on the Association. Fair enough. The next year, there was definitely a shift. Ever since then, the quality of Board members has been hit or miss. I know I always get in trouble for saying this, but not everyone is meant to serve on a HOA Board. What should have happened on Day 1 is that the Board should have created a maintenance and replacement plan and budgeted accordingly. Instead, they remodeled the clubhouse so that one of the former Board Presidents could "meet his friends in the clubhouse for a game of cards".

The last 3 years have been dreadful- definitely the implementation of someone's personal vision of the community. Out of the current Board members, I would say that only one may be truly the qualified. The others have their own agendas and do what they want to do, not what the community wants. They bend the rules to suit them as well. They also misrepresent the community in that they will say that they have "overwhelming support" or "community approval" for their ideas when the reality is that they have 15 owners who "support" their agenda. We have also watched these people harass vendors and make up false accusations against vendors and spread those falsehoods in the community to garner support. We have lost so many vendors and bidding out doesn't get us a large pool of potential bidders like it used to.

Why the apathy from the other owners? If you speak out against the Board or question their decision, you are branded as a troublemaker and the Board has their buddies launch personal attacks and spread rumors about the person who has spoken out. The common wisdom seems to be to keep low to avoid the drama. At least among the few original owners who have been around long enough to see it all. We have watched these current Board members cause problems over the years for the few decent people who have served. The decent people tend to get off of the Board rather than deal with the headaches that these individuals can and will cause. Others have volunteered for committees and have been turned down by the Board if the Board has a personal agenda against the person who wants to volunteer.

The other thing that caused so much apathy was the hard housing market crash in this state. The community is now a mix of retired people who seem to be on a fixed income and will die in their homes, many rentals, many foreclosures (ongoing in this state and projected to last for several more years due to the backlog in the courts), and overall a higher turnover of ownership. Some homes are on their 3rd and 4th owners in 10 years. Nearly half of the homes on our street alone are now rentals. Rental owners are either hedge funds or owners who had enough money to throw in the towel and move but held onto the house rather than sell at a tremendous loss. It is not an entire community of owners who are in it for the long haul and have a vested interest.

I don't think that all HOAs are evil. Our family is definitely gun shy about buying into another HOA community. Sure, it could be very nicely operated now but what about next year or in 5 years? Would we be in the same type of HOA that we are currently in right now? I hold very little hope that a group of well-educated, honest, business savvy individuals will end up on our Board. While we have our exit strategy, we don't want to end up in the same mess.

The engineered storm water management system a/k/a the lake(s) or the pond(s).

The engineered storm water drainage system.

The construction cost (even if later 'dedicated' to the public) of the roads is 'built in' to the home price as opposed to being funded by taxpayer general funds. If the roads are kept private, even better for the 'county'.

Street lamps and the electricity to operate them, sometimes even if roads are public.

The landscaping and entrance signage.

etc.

And that is one of the reasons why I continue to serve on the Board.

Yep, nobody said it would be easy.

If you don't stand up to a bully, the bully always wins. It took me three years to gather the support needed. During that time, and for a few years after, I too was labeled and had personal attacks against me. Some still believe those things about me. That's life.


I thought that way for several years. Lived by the "you leave me alone I'll leave you alone" philosophy. Once the group had gone after others, they came after me for stupid things.

Glad I finally got involved and withstood the personal attacks. It took a long, long time and for most of that time I thought I was in the fight alone. Even though sometimes the membership gets the type of Association they have chosen, sometimes the membership is simply looking for someone to step up to the plate that they can get behind and support.

I have gotten a bad taste for HOAS from my last 2 neighborhoods. My family bought both houses specifically because there was limited and reasonable deed restrictions and a voluntary HOA. In both neighborhoods the board was run by an ambitious clique, hired the same questionable lawyer and started rewriting the rules. The altered the bylaws and articles of incorporation to give the board more power and then got 51% of the neighbors to sign on to establish mandatory membership and fees for all. Then when the C&Rs expired they ignored the law and pressed on. What makes this worse is that they make up rules on the fly, like granting membership waivers one day out of the year (but requiring people to pay a full year of assessments) or trying to implement architectural control despite nothing granting them that power. I have talked to people wishing to buy homes in the neighborhood and they were turned off specifically because of the HOA'S shenanigans.

I am sure there are well run associations and associations right for certain people but there are some that should be shut down.