Denied for TH exterior sunroom extension, worth appealing? advice needed

Started by PaulB12 • 23 replies • 2658 views

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PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Hello, I'm new, I searched through the threads back to 2014, couldn't find anything on this, so I own a 2000sq-ft 3-level 22 foot wide town-home in Northern VA, I applied for a rear 3-level 13ft x 10ft extension, I got signatures from the neighbors to both sides. ARC denied the application due to "no extension permitted due to location and impact to neighbors" No other reason.

The 13 x 10 extension was an option for any town-home when they were built brand new so some neighbors have them, some don't. I filed appeal on the basis of impacted neighbors signed off on it so it cannot be used as a reason for denial. This is really all I got for the appeal. Other points I have come up with

-other neighbors have extensions and I'm only doing the same extension, nothing extra
-enhances my property value and others in the neighborhood

This is all I got, the rules are so vague, the rules say any exterior mod must be approved by ARC. As long as I get the signatures, colors and dimensions correct, everything meets the application criteria.

Other than someone saying I should of paid for the extension when I bought it, the questions I have are:
Should I continue with the hearing and appeal, I get one appeal so need to put my best effort not to let the wife down, need convincing arguments?
Anything that might convince the board to allow the modification?
Any surprises I might encounter at the hearing?
From the view point of the ARC member why would this be denied?

PitA
Posts: 311

Posted:

-other neighbors have extensions and I'm only doing the same extension, nothing extra

perhaps the issue is merely miscommunication

request an informal meeting with the committee and see

PitA
Posts: 311

Posted:

real friendly-like

I probably filled out the request wrong.
I may have failed to communicate.
What should I do now?
What do y'all need from me?

....the new and improved PitA

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Paul,

Is your builder still in control of the board? The reason I ask is that if purchased the home new from the builder and elected to forego the extension you now wish to add, the builder may be a tad bit vindictive or may feel that you are going to hire some other contractor to do the work.

From what I read, I think your CC&R's stink because you have no real notice of what is or is not acceptable. You've been sold a pig in a poke.

If you were to pursue this through legal action I think you have a good chance of prevailing but the cost may not be worth it. It's a judgment call that only you can make.

PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 05/20/2015 12:04 PM
Paul,

Is your builder still in control of the board? The reason I ask is that if purchased the home new from the builder and elected to forego the extension you now wish to add, the builder may be a tad bit vindictive or may feel that you are going to hire some other contractor to do the work.

From what I read, I think your CC&R's stink because you have no real notice of what is or is not acceptable. You've been sold a pig in a poke.

If you were to pursue this through legal action I think you have a good chance of prevailing but the cost may not be worth it. It's a judgment call that only you can make.

The builder is not in control, they sold all the properties long ago. 110 homes. Its KHov. I'm with you, I'm not going to pursue any further than the appeal hearing. I'm stuck with what I got. Got a few quotes on lawyers, all about $1000-$1500 which should last about one meeting and one hearing. They all said it not worth pursuing but did say try to make a good point at the appeal.

I do have a backup application for just the deck and fence. I've got good advice on that already. For example, they denied a neighbor for trying to put a deck separator (you know the diamond shaped hole ones). So that's off the table.

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

A few ideas . . .

- Definitely first try to proceed informally (pre appeal) by getting clarification on the initial decision. Denied due to "no extension permitted due to location and impact to neighbors" is certainly ambiguous.
- Who are the ARC members? Informally speak to them to get their perspective and whatever information they have.
- Proceeding informally and in a friendly manner, you will come to find out more info than you will if you immediately start being adversarial.
- After gathering all your info, proceed with the appeal. It's the only option at this point if you want the extension as you have designed it.
- However, if denied at your appeal, I don't believe there would be anything preventing you from making slight adjustments to your design (based on what you learned through the appeal) and resubmitting a "new" request.

Good luck.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Bring to the hearing:

2-3 photos of every house that has the extension. Sometimes an ARC doesn't know how prevalent a variation is until you point it out to them.

Signed approvals from each of your neighbors. Even better, see if your neighbors are willing to attend the hearing with you.

Original documentation (if you have it) showing that the extension was a standard offering when the units were built.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 05/20/2015 3:17 PM
Bring to the hearing:

2-3 photos of every house that has the extension. Sometimes an ARC doesn't know how prevalent a variation is until you point it out to them.

Signed approvals from each of your neighbors. Even better, see if your neighbors are willing to attend the hearing with you.

Original documentation (if you have it) showing that the extension was a standard offering when the units were built.

This is good, I did that in the proposal but honestly I don't think they got passed the first page. I have all the original Khov brochure's so that is good.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Actually, if you have a copy of the floor plans for your model showing that option, that would also be a good bit of documentation.

PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Update

Exhausted all appeals, I can't reason with these uneducated HOA members, even hired a professional engineer to okay the project, lawyer now wants more $$$ (now upped his price to $5k-$8k) so extension is probably off the table.

I could of beat them, the case was so strong because the restrictive covenants were ambiguous, no court in the world would enforce an ambiguous covenant. They are now drafting revised covenants to ban any additions.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Paul,

Other option is to gather support and change the Board - who can change the Architectural Committee members, and resubmit the application.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Paul

You referenced the builder and others having such done by the builder but my question is was your request to do as "identical" to the what the original builder did?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Here is an outside the box idea... The people who have the extensions do they have issues? Meaning have they suffered leakage, structural issues, or other maintenance items? Could be they look good but like a bad porch, better off removed.

Think the board is telling you something by not telling you something. You may feel they are saying the addition is unfair competition effecting all members home values. More likely someone would buy your home for having it. That perception means effecting home values.

The other thing could be what happens to many home flippers. They go in and gut a home. They install marble, porcelean, and nickle plated fixtures etc... Well all the houses have leneulium, old cabinents, and carpeting... They basically have improved a house who comparible equals do not meet the same quality. They out price themselves in the market effecting home values.

You have to understand the reality of home value is based on real numbers not attractiveness of the home. Your home value would be based on what those houses with extensions sell for. Your neighbors without are not comparible. Which in turn lowers their property value compared to yours. Hence why they say your addition does effect the home values when it comes to refi and sales.

Former HOA President

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/09/2015 5:23 PM
Here is an outside the box idea... The people who have the extensions do they have issues? Meaning have they suffered leakage, structural issues, or other maintenance items? Could be they look good but like a bad porch, better off removed.

Think the board is telling you something by not telling you something. You may feel they are saying the addition is unfair competition effecting all members home values. More likely someone would buy your home for having it. That perception means effecting home values.

The other thing could be what happens to many home flippers. They go in and gut a home. They install marble, porcelean, and nickle plated fixtures etc... Well all the houses have leneulium, old cabinents, and carpeting... They basically have improved a house who comparible equals do not meet the same quality. They out price themselves in the market effecting home values.

You have to understand the reality of home value is based on real numbers not attractiveness of the home. Your home value would be based on what those houses with extensions sell for. Your neighbors without are not comparible. Which in turn lowers their property value compared to yours. Hence why they say your addition does effect the home values when it comes to refi and sales.

??????????????????

PitA
Posts: 1,416

Posted:

Richard,

Are you not fluent in the language of Jabberwocky?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Richard and Pita may think Melissa’s comment is silly, but she might have a point regarding the other extensions. Perhaps they’re not being maintained properly, which makes the community look bad (which can also impact property values), so the Board has decided it would be best to ban all of them.

It’s also possible there’s language in the current CCRs that would make the association responsible for maintenance of the additions after a certain period. Sounds goofy, but for some reason, my community has the same language concerning patios that were converted into small storage sheds. No one thought to change the language when the CCRs were last updated in 1978, and as a result, the Association has had to pay for small roof repairs over the years (that was a big issue when I moved into the community 14 years ago – my patio doesn’t have one, thank goodness).

Anyway, because of the expense and homeowners unwillingness to maintain the things (for example a few have let the doors come off the hinges and don't even bother contacting the property manager), the Board decided that it will no longer approve these requests. There was one such request before I left the board, but unlike yours, we denied it AND explained why, adding the homeowner could easily purchase one of those Rubbermaid free standing sheds. Haven’t heard from the homeowner since and since the Association did repair the patio pad on an unrelated matter, I guess he decided to let the matter drop.

In any event, CCR revisions have to be approved by a certain percentage of the homeowners (check your documents for the figure), so when they present the proposals, lobby among your fellow homeowners to make your case. You can also do as Tim suggested – gather support and change the Board who could then change the committee members.

By the way, your argument that the addition would enhance property values can also be seen as ambiguous - how do you know that for sure and how much in dollars would this enhancement be worth?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 07/15/2015 12:33 PM
Richard and Pita may think Melissa’s comment is silly, but she might have a point regarding the other extensions. Perhaps they’re not being maintained properly, which makes the community look bad (which can also impact property values), so the Board has decided it would be best to ban all of them.

It’s also possible there’s language in the current CCRs that would make the association responsible for maintenance of the additions after a certain period. Sounds goofy, but for some reason, my community has the same language concerning patios that were converted into small storage sheds. No one thought to change the language when the CCRs were last updated in 1978, and as a result, the Association has had to pay for small roof repairs over the years (that was a big issue when I moved into the community 14 years ago – my patio doesn’t have one, thank goodness).

Anyway, because of the expense and homeowners unwillingness to maintain the things (for example a few have let the doors come off the hinges and don't even bother contacting the property manager), the Board decided that it will no longer approve these requests. There was one such request before I left the board, but unlike yours, we denied it AND explained why, adding the homeowner could easily purchase one of those Rubbermaid free standing sheds. Haven’t heard from the homeowner since and since the Association did repair the patio pad on an unrelated matter, I guess he decided to let the matter drop.

In any event, CCR revisions have to be approved by a certain percentage of the homeowners (check your documents for the figure), so when they present the proposals, lobby among your fellow homeowners to make your case. You can also do as Tim suggested – gather support and change the Board who could then change the committee members.

By the way, your argument that the addition would enhance property values can also be seen as ambiguous - how do you know that for sure and how much in dollars would this enhancement be worth?

I don't know that's why I came here because I needed other points to make, obviously they were more concerned about other stuff, like damaging the neighbors house or road, pavement, grass, etc. From the real estate agent I know return on this type of extension is about 50%, so a 30k investment would mean a 45k increase in house value but anyway I could use the money for something else, if I decide to sell one day. So I guess them saying no isn't so bad after all. I'll just wait until some new members get voted in.

If they do decide to change the restrictive covenants I'll try to point it out to the neighbors if they step over the line, which they probably will. They are under the impression they don't need a community vote on restrictive covenants(67% in VA, 50% if they go to court), they must be thinking about bylaws.

MikeS1
Posts: 521

Posted:

Paul - Did I miss anything here? Did you appeal the ARC's decision (in writing) to the board? If you have not, I would IMO. Then file a formal complaint through your P.M or HOA. Next step if that does not go well, might be to look for some oversight on this. File a CICB complaint. http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/CIC-Ombudsman/

Is this in Fairfax County? Did you check with Zoning on Setbacks? Does it encroach on any setbacks? Any problem with getting a building permit for this?

PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MikeS1 on 07/17/2015 7:01 AM
Paul - Did I miss anything here? Did you appeal the ARC's decision (in writing) to the board? If you have not, I would IMO. Then file a formal complaint through your P.M or HOA. Next step if that does not go well, might be to look for some oversight on this. File a CICB complaint. http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/CIC-Ombudsman/

Is this in Fairfax County? Did you check with Zoning on Setbacks? Does it encroach on any setbacks? Any problem with getting a building permit for this?

Yes I filed an appeal in writing which went to the board, the board of directors could not make a decision, they said its up to the architectural review board, they sent it back to that board, they denied it again. Its Loudoun county, no zoning issues because in my initial post I said this was an sunroom extension option was available from the builder. Some people paid $25k for it, some did not, I did not. Contractor see no issues getting a permit.

The HOA already knows, I don't see the point in filing complainant, the manager's seen it, the directors, president all weighed in, they said its up to the ARB and the decision is final. I could file with Ombudsman just don't see what would change now. Only an attorney could do something.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Paul

I repeat an earlier question:

You referenced the builder and others having such done by the builder but my question is was your request to do as "identical" to the what the original builder did?

PaulB12 (Virginia)
Posts: 56

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 07/17/2015 12:13 PM
Paul

I repeat an earlier question:

You referenced the builder and others having such done by the builder but my question is was your request to do as "identical" to the what the original builder did?

Exactly the same, colors, dimensions, copied it right from the Brochure KHOV gave us.

PamM6 (Michigan)
Posts: 41

Posted:

Jump through all the hoops stated here to be lovely and show that you are making an effort to get along with the board. Then if still denied, and you still want the extension, go ahead and build it They have to sue you to take it down and they are unlikely to do that when there are plenty of other extensions present. Just make sure yours is not the pink elephant in the room. We used to have a board that was inconsistent, fortunately that's changed. I've just built a pool and my contractors biggest issue with an HOA is how inconsistent the boards decisions are when homes are in the same community. They're human. I guess.

MikeS1
Posts: 521

Posted:

- If they already have sunrooms in the community that were offered by the builder, I do not see why they would deny you. What was the basis for their decision?

MikeS1
Posts: 521

Posted:

- If they already have sunrooms in the community that were offered by the builder, I do not see why they would deny you. What was the basis for their decision?

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