HOA hits 30 year mark

I have some questions. Does the 30 year mark end when the builders deeded the HOA or does it end when each owner was deeded in closing. We have 37 homes and believe our covenants and restriction have expired for most of our 37 homes. Only two remain under the covenants and restrictions if we are understanding this right. Also if we were to try and revitalize the C&R what majority is needed to go forward. I've read 51% and 80%. We have a huge mess going in. Our board has been incompetent for years. Thanks

The 30 years starts at the root of title - the first deed for the individual homeowner. It may be different for each homeowner.

Thanks all....our wording is not clear. We believe the HOA actually stands for 50 years but everything else ends at 30 years. There is much confusion and arguing. One board member was voted off, probably not legally and then they turned around and reinstated her. The next day she resigned not wanting to work with the rest of the board and she has the majority on her side. If there is a vote among homeowners, which I believe there will have to be, I don't think it will pass to move forward to revitalize.

I live in an Association that is over 30 years old. I was on the Board(no longer am) and brought up the MRTA issue when the Board censored me for wanting them to do things properly. They were not following the agenda, writing horrible minutes, one Board member was trying to exert her agenda on the community - I was very unhappy with their tactics. After writing the censor letter, I went to an HOA attorney and he wrote them back. While he was composing his letter , he discovered my title was over 30 years old and mentioned MRTA. I was shocked to find this out and went to an HOA Expo to find out more about it. No one at the Expo wanted to talk about MRTA but suddenly a voice came up and stated she was involved with MRTA in her HOA. I have learned much about MRTA from this person but still have questions and feel overwhelmed by my Board and their poor performance. They hired the cheapest attorney they could find,had two Board members and one of their husband's search the titles to save money. There were at least 14 to 16 properties that were extinguished but this group came up with 3 and some common ground. Their attorney files the preservation with only the three titles and common ground. My root title was 1984 - they included me in the preservation. My questions are:
1) The President went to the three properties and gave them a legal paper stating they would sign to come back to the Association and return to enjoying the amenities. He told them to sign it with him and the Secretary present at a Notary. The one elderly couple called me asking what to do?
2) I read there are four steps to preservation - the last being the clerk of the circuit court send certified letters to each of the preserved properties or it must run in the paper for two weeks. Is this true or is it just something that need not be done?
3) The President states the MRTA "thing " is over and we go back to using all the amended documents - 1983,1991,2006. The Board did not change any of the prior restrictions. Before knowing of MRTA, they were revising the present docs(what a horrible fiasco) and feel they can go right back to doing this.
4) They are now back to doing projects and spending association money on their agendas. At the June Board meeting on Monday, they are going to ask approval of doing the neighborhood islands which is quite expensive.

I am stunned. They think the Preservation was simple and easy and they are back to business like MRTA never happened.
I have retained an attorney as I feel my title is extinguished. I am using the attorney recommended by a fellow blogger.

You can't just have the affected properties "sign a piece of paper" and be done with it. The process to preserve and revitalize when some parcels have had their covenants expire is a detailed one that is carefully spelled out in FS 720. Among other requirements, a majority vote is required of ALL parcel owners that are proposed to be governed by the newly revitalized declaration and covenants. That vote needs to take place and be certified by an attorney or court reporter.

The vote needs to be held at a meeting FOLLOWING the activities of an Organizing Committee whose job is to draw up the revitalization documents. Those documents, including a graphic depiction of all properties to be governed need to be delivered, in writing, to all affected parcel owners at least 14 days before the meeting is held.

Then, they have to be reviewed by the state Department of Economic Opportunity, and approved by them. Once approved, all of the documents have to be re-filed with the county and once that is done, a complete copy of everything, as filed, has to be distributed to every affected parcel owner.

And finally, even then, FS 720.407 states, "With respect to any affected parcels that had ceased to be governed by the previous declaration as of the recording date, the revived declaration may not have retroactive effect with respect to the parcel and shall take priority with respect to the parcel as of the recording date."

The work necessary to pull this off takes hours of effort on the parts of many people. At the very least, I think one would require the services of an attorney to make sure it was done right. Once MRTA has begun to expire the covenants and restrictions, even on one parcel out of many, it's too late to do anything else except what FS 720 requires.

I wish you good luck. There are a lot of ignorant people in Florida and that includes more than a few attorneys.

We all know that the CC&Rs (deed restrictions) are considered a civil contract between all owners of the properties that have the same deed restrictions attached. Associations are formed to maintain and/or operate the common area and fulfill any services (trash/recycling, snow removal, street lighting, etc.) required by the CC&Rs. Per the CC&Rs, the Association is also given the authority (in addition to the owners) to enforce the covenants, restrictions and conditions of the deed restrictions (contract). Typically, Associations are incorporated (usually as a nonprofit) as this provides them certain advantages. As a corporation they must comply with corporate laws in addition to any HOA/COA laws.

As you know there are civil laws and criminal laws. Criminal laws are usually enforced by the Government (Federal, State, local). You need to keep in mind that all HOA and Condominium laws (and most, if not all, corporate laws) are considered Civil (vs. Criminal) laws. Civil laws are usually enforced by the individuals involved and they do this through the court system.

Since contracts, hoa/coa laws and corporate laws are considered civil laws, there is typically limited governmental authorities to "oversee" or enforce those laws.

Sure the State corporation commission may fine for not filing the annual report on time. The IRS will certainly go after the Association for failing to file taxes. The District Attorney will prosecute if criminal laws are broken (example embezzlement). However if the Association doesn't comply with the Bylaws or a civil law, it's up to the membership to hold the Board accountable. The easiest way would be to recall the board or not reelect them to the Board. The more expensive option is to go through the court system.

This is why it's imperative that the members remain active in the development and actually take an interest in how the Association is governed. If apathy sets in (and, unfortunately it does), it becomes that much more difficult to change things when issues are discovered.

The membership is the check and balance to the Association's authority that the Board exercises. If more people in Associations understood this, perhaps membership apathy would be minimized.

Thank you for all of your responses. I am trying to understand MRTA and how it applies to me. Since they didn't recognize me as one of the extinguished lots and went ahead and preserved me, I now will have an attorney represent me. I am not rich by any means - work hard to maintain what I have but it seems to me there is a right and wrong. I have tried to make sure the Association is run as per the covenants, bylaw,AOI, and state statutes. The Board felt I was doing this to better myself -no, it was to improve the running of the business that we all as the Board were obligated to maintain properly. I, still for the life of me, cannot understand how these mini governments can exist in the USA. How can statutes be imposed and yet not be enforced? How can untrained homeowners exist as Board members in charge of large amounts of money when they have absolutely no experience in doing so? And how can they impose their will on their fellow homeowners when not following the rules? We pay taxes, follow the rules and live in the USA. Where is it that a contract can be written(CCR's) and yet to enforce that the Board properly utilize this contract, we need to hire an attorney to make sure it is done properly and spend our private money? I went to the required certification classes as mentioned in the law but now Board members defy going because who is going to enforce it? Why should these Board members spend their time doing something that is not enforceable?
Now the MRTA law is being utilized improperly by our Board and their attorney - they had the attorney draw up a legal form for the extinguished homeowners to sign - telling them that in order to enjoy the amenities(lawn mowing, pool,cable), that they have to sign this legal paper. Once they sign it, they are back into the Association. Yep, that is what I want to do -be back with a Board that is handling my money and running the Board improperly.
So, they filed my property improperly and I will get legal representation. But the little elderly couple that have their property mentioned in the MRTA debacle, don't know what to do -sign this paper brought to them by the President or refuse and not be a part of the wonderful association. I thought extinguished properties needed to be revitalized.
If the choice is up to me, I will refuse to be a part of this association and be just a single family home. I will continue to fight to get out of this horror of mini governments and hopefully some of the elective officials will see how the Floridians they represent are truly suffering under the weight of these so called HOAs. Something needs to be done to control the repulsive nature of how we allow fellow homeowners(Board) run our lives and spend our hard earned money. Where are these elected officials? Why don't they enforce the statutes they wrote for HOAS?

There is no legal document an extinguished parcel owner can sign that will bring them back into the HOA. If the HOA president told them that, then he may very well have committed fraud. Individual properties that have had their covenants expire due to MRTA are not revitalized on an individual basis. The HOA as a whole loses its ability to force an individual owner to abide by the CCRs until the association as a whole revitalizes its covenants and other governing documents. It cannot be done on a case-by-case basis. It doesn't matter if they identified 3 properties and missed 14 others. If ONE property has had the covenants expire then the ENTIRE HOA has to go through the revitalization process in order to bring that single property back into the fold. Or 3 properties. Or 17. There is no single piece of paper an owner can sign that will magically transport them back into the contract. That's not how it works. That's not how any of it works.

I'm happy to hear you've hired an attorney because I think you're going to need one before this is over. I hope he's a good one that is trustworthy.

Thank you, Geno. I have had so many different answers to my questions and I will hopefully be able to utilize the information I receive. I am concerned at how quickly my Association preserved these records and really never explained to the homeowners what MRTA actually was. In the preservation letter they sent for the meeting between the board members, they had a small excerpt from 712. But nothing was explained to the Association members by the Board. I had attended a HOA meeting from another HOA that was going through MRTA and brought all the info to my Board(at the time I was still on the Board). The Board accused me of "scare tactics" and dismissed the information I had brought them.
By having homeowners search the titles instead of the attorney, I think they did not find all the root titles and missed quite a few of them. I had my title looked over by an attorney as well as the covenants and the amended covenants. He verified that my title was extinguished and yet they preserved it. The elderly couple called me as we had discussed MRTA with them briefly and were afraid to sign this legal paper the President brought them. If the other two homeowners signed it, is it fraudulent that the President even brought them this paper? I am not happy to be paying my assessment to these individuals who seem to be doing MRTA wrong. If I am no longer part of the association through being extinguished, I do not want to contribute to their bad decisions.

Thanks again and I will be back.

I am not a proponent of suing my HOA, but if your board did the preservation illegally on your property, would you be able to recover the attorney fee's from the HOA? This may be a bargaining chip for you to get them to understand that they have made a big mistake on behalf of the whole hoa, not just you.

It's a radical step to take, that's for sure. I can only envision a few scenarios where it would even begin to make sense. Any common property such as roads, street lights, stormwater retention ponds.... If your HOA goes away then the individual homeowners become liable for maintaining all those and that could be a nightmare.

On the other hand, if it's not a gated subdivision and has through-streets already maintained by the county, and the utilities and sewers are municipal and there's no other pressing maintenance issues, well.... maybe, but even then only if the association has a history of making for bad neighbors or collecting assessments and squandering the money.

I can't see the latter scenario existing in very many places, but my sample size is small and I could be wrong.

Banks said:

There are no architectural guidelines or rules about one's garbage can or parking or things like that. Thus there are no fines, no arguments about paint color, fence height, etc.

The controls are one of my reasons for being in an HOA. Put me out in Bumnowhere with a few acres between homes where I cannot see nor smell my neighbors then maybe I am comfortable. Put me in any city or urban area with a closer living environment where I can see and smell my neighbors then I wan some control and I will surrender some of my freedoms to them for the greater good of our neighbor.

HOA's are good for the control of the populace.....Lenin.......LOL

I know I wanted both my neighborhoods to die via MRTA but for good reason. Considering a neighboring HOA annexed my subdivision by having my neighbors sign a consent forms and then insist they could charge a "mandatory maintenance fee" of any amount of the board's choosing on non-members, I would think wishing for MRTA to put an end to them would be understandable.

And my other neighborhood experienced a similar conversion by the same law firm as the first, I would say that for a homeowner who followed all the rules and was a voluntary dues paying member in the past, utilizing MRTA was worth it.

The fact is the law is the law. It doesn't make a difference if people like me are whiners or not. The HOA has an obligation and there are rules that govern such obligation.

I think even in the best run HOAS you need people like us. While my HOA is still trying to do their own thing I now have a lot more people talking. Many homeowners withdrew membership or questioned what was going on and the board has been met with several challengers, although they all lost. I think this is why the board has hired a couple property managers. The last property management company upped inforcement, sending hundreds of violation notices in a month, but in the end they couldn't collect. Probably because unlike the HOA there is a goverNing body they could be impacted by. Now they hired a new manager and it seems they started sending people to collections (their attorney) as a way to up the antenna and prove they mean business.

Susan

You need looser whatevers as they are making you uptight.

Your issue is a bad BOD (according to you) so you choose to go the MRTA route versus address their actions.

The Lenin remark was a joke. Vladimir (Vlad to his friends) died in 1924. I doubt he ever heard of an HOA.

Florida Fellows Kevin and Geno,
If your HOA is past the 30 year mark according to MRTA, does membership in the HOA become voluntary? If it is voluntary, do only voluntary members pay assessments? What if you have common elements to maintain? I get that building restrictions are no longer enforceable but what about maintenance of the common elements. What if your HOA has no common elements to maintain? What would be a good reason for keeping it going?

If you are a voluntary member are you lawfully required to adhere to the CCR's? For instance what if you want to paint your house a color not on the list of approved colors or you get fined for leaving out your garbage can? Could you just say "I quit."

This is specifically for Geno. What side of the fence are you on? Do you wish for revitalization or to just let your HOA become voluntary.

I live in a state with some of these same issues but as I said before most of my neighbors are fine with the nonprofit to maintain the sanitary sewer. There are plenty of issues associated with maintaining the sewer. I can't imagine what it would be like to have more stuff to deal with.

John, I need looser whatever's? What?
I am a very easy going person- been a nurse for 42 years and never have been called uptight. I do notice in most of your blog, John, you are for board members more so than the individuals in the HOA . Sorry, any joke with Lenin's name doesn't seem like a joke. I came to this blog to hear what others say about MRTA and find out if they can help me. I didn't want to be subjected to some one telling me to move or what the rules are for in an HOA. I have diligently worked as a Board member and find it to be frustrating and demeaning. If it was run properly,I would still be on it and helping my community. I know the covenants better than anyone in my community and read the state statutes frequently.
I want out of my association now as it can't be salvaged. I want to enjoy my home without the thought of what this Board will do next improperly. If MRTA allows this, I am gone. Sorry,apathetic homeowners and Board;you lose a very good person for the board and association. I would be free.

That would be association-specific, no? Not all HOAs have virtually limitless funds. I want to put in our budget for next year money for about 10 hours worth of our attorney's time to answer some questions regarding our documents. It hasn't even come up formally yet but I have informally mentioned it to some other members here and there is a LOT of pushback against the idea already.

If we were to become involved in any litigation there wouldn't be much stomach for it here. People would want to make it go away in the cheapest way possible, never mind standing on principle or worse: proving a point to satisfy board egos. We certainly would not have "unlimited funds" to engage in court fights.

Back again and have more questions about MRTA. I found 19 properties in my community(we have 76 homes) that seem to be extinguished as per MRTA. The root title is from the developer to the builder - correct? This is the first deed. On the root title is the covenant notice with book and page #. Almost all the homes sold did not have that language on it. I bought my home three months after the builder bought the property from the developer. The builder's title has the language; mine does not. The docs were written early 1983; my builder bought the property in July of 1984; I purchased it from him October 1984. Now, the Board has preserved all of the homes in my community, including mine, stating only three were extinguished. They went to all three homes with a legal form which all three signed stating they were back in the Association. I sent a letter to the President with all 19 root titles of properties extinguished by MRTA.
The President returned with an answer - stated MRTA was 100% complete in my community; all titles preserved for another 30 years and my title was preserved as were the others. The association lawyer has told the Board that because the root titles had the language of the covenants on them that MRTA did not apply to these titles and they were not extinguished.The preservation notice only mentioned the original docs and not the 1991 and 2006 amendments.
I questioned the Prez again and he sent me a copy of my deed but lo and behold, it was the deed of a property I owned in 1986 and sold in 1996. It was not the title of the property I own now. By the way, the Board in trying to save money, had two Board members search titles for the attorney. The attorney never searched the titles. And the cost for preservation is over $3,000. Homeowners were never told of what MRTA meant - not that they would care as they are so apathetic.

I have an attorney well versed in MRTA that is sending their attorney a letter that they did not preserve my title.

Any word of wisdom - I sure would like to know what you all think.

I really loved my HOA - was on the Board multiple times but this Board is horrible -self serving individuals who make poor decisions and will eventually cost the association lots of money. We have an apathetic group of homeowners - no one wants to serve on the Board - we still have a vacancy from 3 months ago. The Board does things secretively and condone anyone that asks them to fly right. I have been censored three times because of my letters to the Board. And three of those letters saved them money as they wrote incorrect checks to vendors. They are not transparent -we do not know where our money is going; the bounce checks; have a CPA that they all voted in with no discussion - had the contract ready to sign; they hire the cheapest vendors; they are horrible and I am not willing to give my hard earned money to them. I have lived there 32 years and never missed a payment; now i would rather be out and live in my home without listening to the rantings of idiots.

I want out.

Thanks for the advice, John and I, too, believe in joining and working within to make changes; I worked hard all three times I was on the Board and made considerable changes. I love my home - it is paid for; my children were raised there; it is perfect for my dogs and I love my yard. Why should I be forced to leave because of these morons. I have watched numerous Boards change and really had a lot of hope for this Board until a woman joined with a very strong agenda and changed the whole complexion of the association. She is a control freak and is making people cringe with her antics. However, apathy runs rampant and no one wants to be on the Board. So, we are stuck. I work in the area, my family is in the area and my home is great. I will not give it up and will fight with determination to eliminate my stressors. HOAS in Florida are a joke - laws but no enforcement. Until they are changed, Boards will do whatever they want and the homeowners suffer the consequences. Well, not this homeowner.

I am not leaving my home but will leave the Association in a blink of an eye.

Thanks, Geno. My association filed a preservation even thought the docs were written in 1983. There were i9 root titles that were supposedly extinguished. There are 76 homes in the HOA. The Board filed a preservation and stated there were only 3 extinguished properties. They recorded the preservation in the courthouse and than gave each of the three properties extinguished a legal form to sign that would reinstate them back into the association. All the root titles were the same so I cannot figure why only three and not the 19. My title was one of the 19. The HOA attorney stated that because the language on the root title referenced the covenants by book and page #, MRTA was not applicable to these titles. So, they all could be preserved and MRTA was 100% finished. I explained to the President that the language on my root title was the same as the three extinguished but he told me I didn't know anything about it and I was subject to the CCand R's. The preservation only made reference to the original docs and not the ammended 1991 and 2006 docs.So, if the root title mentions the covenants and the book and page # - it is not subject to MRTA? My title has no reference to the Covenants and it was in 1984. I am so confused now. My lawyer says they cannot encumber my title but the Association lawyer states MRTA does not apply to my title because of the root title....Yikes....What is the truth? I have researched until I am blue in the face but the articles have different ideas about MRTA.

Help.

Thank you, Kevin. I appreciate your comments and they make me feel much better about MRTA. My President wrote me a long letter that they were 100% compliant with MRTA as the attorney the Board hired has 18 years of HOA law under his belt and knows the law. Sadly, the President is unaware I had a title search done by a professional company that states my title was extinguished. The Association attorney says no - because I have the Declaration on the root deed to my property, MRTA doesn't exist for me. So, wow.....These are the attorneys the Association uses; they run up large bills and provide incorrect information; the Board thinks they are in the clear and resume business as usual. I do not want my money supporting individuals like them. And they go around and tell all the other homeowners what a grand job they did to save the community from MRTA.

Oh, well. Onward I go to do what is right. I appreciate all the info I can get. I have retained an attorney that only deals in MRTA. Hopefully, he will give the Board a lesson on that subject that they won't forget.

By the way - I first heard of MRTA when I went to a local attorney to defend myself when the Board wrote a certified letter about my behavior and censored me when I was on vacation( I was the Treasurer on the Board). This attorney looked up my title and lo and behold, I was extinguished. Never knew about MRTA. Kindly, this attorney wrote to the President and informed him that the docs had expired. I went to an expo months later where I met a woman who was deeply involved in MRTA; went to one of her HOA meetings where they were presented with MRTA - her attorney(now mine) was a guest speaker. I was so impressed with his knowledge(but still every once in awhile when I hear another attorney say something different, I have to be reassured). I presented my Board with the idea to meet with this attorney so they would understand MRTA - this attorney suggested meeting with them. They refused because they thought it was scare tactics and MRTA was not that difficult. One of the Board members had a friend that was an attorney and he stated MRTA was an "easy Peasy" solution and so they went with a friend.

Now they have preserved the docs; made extinguished homeowners sign a legal form; and told me that I am still a part of the Association even though I have been extinguished. And they are spending lots of homeowner money.

I am amazed that HOAs can continue with this type of incompetence. Where are the laws protecting us against these people called Board members? I am a RN and must have a license to practice, be certified in ACLS, BLS and be proficient in all types of procedures. Board members need to be certified correctly and not just by signing an affidavit. Who are these people and where is their expertise in the running of a business? It is very scary what is out there.......

I agree with you, Geno, and though I do not have a lot of money neither does my Board or community. I was the Treasurer for 5 years and brought them from bankruptcy to having $50,000 in their reserves. I resigned at the advice of my attorney. They are spending this like wildfire. I always adhered to the budget - they see the money as a means to do what they want. Unfortunately, a lawsuit would devastate the community. And that is what I will do. If the homeowners are so apathetic that they don't question this Board even after I wrote them about it, than they deserve what they get. I know for a fact that this Association could not survive a lawsuit. They are so arrogant thinking that no one would dare sue them.....

I have faithfully paid my assessment for 31 yeas - never missed a payment but I will not give anymore money to these fruitcakes after I bring action against them.
I also heard homestead plays into the equation? Bottom line - they preserved the entire neighborhood when there were homes with expired deeds. They only mentioned the original docs - no mention of the amended docs; they excluded three homes but had them sign a legal form. The President told these three homes that they needed to sign these forms to enjoy the amenities and restrictions the Association supplied. Like fools, they all signed but in fairness, they didn't really understand what they were signing. The Board never once explained MRTA to any of the homeowners. When I was on the Board, I wrote the monthly newsletter and tried to explain MRTA - I was admonished by the Board for doing so.

It is time someone stood up to the repulsive thing we call an HOA and Board. I will make one small step in taking on mine even if it means I have to work double time.

It is truly a shame what HOAs have put homeowners through. I was raised in a wonderful community where everyone enjoyed families and their homes. No HOA was ever mentioned and the neighborhood was beautiful - everyone took pride in their homes. I move to Florida and thought the community I moved into was a good place to raise my young family.Unfortunately it was an HOA. The first President after the developer moved on, was President for 25 years on and off. He was corrupt and had an agenda for every thing he did. He used unlicensed vendors, spent our money recklessly and was cruel to people who did not go along with him. My children were raised in this atmosphere. I could not move as I worked in the area, my children went to school in the area and my husband had his business nearby. We were sued - we won the suit but were taken to appellate court which we won again. I joined the Board to make sure it just wasn't me - served three years and because I research and do most of the work, the association was doing very well. I was fired by a self serving attorney that was a homeowner, Board member, and the attorney for the association. Being very limited in my knowledge of HOAs, I moved on and became just a homeowner again. 5 years ago, a homeowner asked me to serve again - why I did it, I don't know. I became Treasurer and found out why they needed to change and get a new Treasurer. The Association was on the verge of bankruptcy. I had a checking account balance of $4,000 and $11,000 of bills. My husband helped me run a very efficient Treasury and we had a wonderful budget and kept the assessment the same for five years. I cleaned up their infrastructure which was crumbling and the reserves grew to $50,000. It was strict budgeting, using good vendors and lots of hard work. Lo and behold, a woman joined the Board who was self serving and downright mean spirited. She had the Board censor me because I felt she was spending incorrectly and doing things as per her agenda. She wrote a hateful letter that all the Board members signed asking for my resignation. This time I knew my rights and remained on the Board until my attorney told me to get off due to the liability. This woman is now the Treasurer. She has paid bills inappropriately, had overdrafts, had a book keeper hired that is costing us a monthly rate(we really don't need a book keeper but he seems to be her friend) and hired a lawyer to represent them for MRTA. This lawyer does not seem to know the law and that is why I have all the questions. This forum was recommended by a woman who was on other blogs on MRTA and has helped me considerably. But reinforcing the info is invaluable - I thank you all.

I am ready to retire and have decided that I am going to work on these things called HOAs. How can they be allowed and how can Board members be so poorly educated as to the law and their own covenants? I think it is time to stop this behavior.... I had the Board all certified(the Prez signed an affidavit)but what is the sense of this if it means nothing. The law(720) can't be enforced. HOAS are not being taken care of during legislative sessions. And Board members even with the certification classes - didn't learn a thing. Sloppy minutes, poor work ethics, laziness, self serving, on and on.
I do not want my children to think this is how things are to be - honesty and integrity are so important. What type of example do I show by letting these misfits win.......