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Police enforcement of HOA roadside parking prohibition

Started by DanR8 • 16 replies • 2276 views

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DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
I've got a question that I'm hoping someone with some legal knowledge ( maybe a real lawyer) would be able to answer. The issue is parking enforcement on HOA owned roads. In Memphis, the police refuse to write tickets to parking violators based on the assumption that the police can only enforce the law, not HOA rules. It sounds reasonable enough, but I'm wondering if it's really not against the law and here's my logic.

The International Fire Code, Sections 503.1.1, shown below, states that there should be Fire access roads leading to all buildings.

503. 1.1 Buildings and facilities. Approved fire apparatus
access roads shall be provided for every facility, building or
portion of a building hereafter constructed or moved into or
within the jurisdiction. The fire apparatus access road shall
comply with the requirements of this section and shall
extend to within 150 feet (45 720 mm) of all portions of the
facility and all portions of the exterior walls of the first story
of the building as measured by an approved route around the
exterior of the building or facility.

Furthermore, Section 503.2, states that the minimum unobstructed width of such roads is to be at least 20 feet.

503.2 Specifications. Fire apparatus access roads shall be
installed and arranged in accordance with Sections 503.2.1
through 5032.8.

5032.1 Dimensions. Fire apparatus access roads shall have
an unobstructed Width of not less than 20 feet (6096 min),
exclusive of shoulders, except for approved securitiy gates in
accordance with Section 503.6, and an unobstructed verti-
cal clearance of not less than 13 feet 6 inches (4115 mm).

Section 503.2 of the Fire Code states that fire access roads shall not be obstructed.

503.4 Obstruction of fire apparatus access roads. Fire appa-
ratus access roads shall not be obstructed in any manner,
including the parking of vehicles. The minimum widths and
clearances established in Section 503.2.1 shall be maintained
at all times.

Few, if any, of the private roads in our community are wide enough to provide 20ft of space with a parked car on the roadside!

Significantly. the International Fire Code was adopted by Memphis and Shelby County in their building code in 2012 and also by the Memphis City Council in Ordinance #5487 (12/18/12).

101.4.6 Fire Prevention. — The provisions of the
International Fire Code shall apply to matters
affecting or related to structures, processes and
premises from the hazard of fire and explosion
arising from the storage, handling or use of
structures, materials or devices, from the
conditions hazardous to life, property or public
welfare in the occupancy of structures or
premises, and from the construction, extension,
repair, alteration or removal of fire suppression
and alarm systems or fire hazards in the structure
or on the premises from occupancy or operation

Thus it appears to me that it really is against the law to park on our HOA-owned roads and the police, if they so choose, can stop it just as they can stop us from beating our wives or running a meth lab or a cathouse. I've tried to get the police to run it by city lawyers to see if they think the parking is illegal, but they just turn it over to the fire department and the Memphis Fire Chief couldn't care less.

Does anyone have any insight into the validity of my legal argument here. This is from the University of Google, which is OK, but I'd like something better.

PitA
Posts: 311
Posted:
Your HOA is in violation of the fire code(s) by not enforcing INTERNAL parking violations.

Try contacting the local FD.

They may, or may not, care as they will generally merely 'plow' an obstructing vehicle aside.

Similar to running the suction hose THROUGH the vehicle parked at the fire hydrant.

GOOD LUCK
DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
This is an interesting response! Another HOA president from an adjoining neighborhood told me the fire trucks were out in his HOA recently and they were blocked by parked cars and they threatened to fine the HOA if it happens again.

I'm wondering however, how our public servants get to the conclusion that it's up to us to enforce the law. We aren't responsible for preventing wife beating. How did we get stuck with this? Also, what constitutes enforcement? We, of course, have signs. At times, the tow truck has been called, but it takes an hour for the truck to get here and when it does, it makes so much noise that the car owner hears it and comes and moves the car and the tow truck goes back empty handed.
AllisonD (Florida)
Posts: 449
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanR8 on 05/08/2015 3:46 PM
This is an interesting response! Another HOA president from an adjoining neighborhood told me the fire trucks were out in his HOA recently and they were blocked by parked cars and they threatened to fine the HOA if it happens again.

I'm wondering however, how our public servants get to the conclusion that it's up to us to enforce the law. We aren't responsible for preventing wife beating. How did we get stuck with this? Also, what constitutes enforcement? We, of course, have signs. At times, the tow truck has been called, but it takes an hour for the truck to get here and when it does, it makes so much noise that the car owner hears it and comes and moves the car and the tow truck goes back empty handed.

Wife beating is a crime, the police have every right to enforce criminal laws. The penalty for violating code is a fine and it is a civil matter. The police will not typically care about civil matters in an HOA except when it looks like things are escalating to the point where a battery may occur, and I am sure they would not sit by while a firetruck is blocked. The job of police is for criminal law.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanR8 on 05/08/2015 3:46 PM
I'm wondering however, how our public servants get to the conclusion that it's up to us to enforce the law. We aren't responsible for preventing wife beating. How did we get stuck with this? Also, what constitutes enforcement? We, of course, have signs. At times, the tow truck has been called, but it takes an hour for the truck to get here and when it does, it makes so much noise that the car owner hears it and comes and moves the car and the tow truck goes back empty handed.


You don't own your wife. You do own your streets.

I see nothing wrong with a government official putting the responsibility for emergency access violations on the HOA. If your HOA wants to make the individual violators responsible, the HOA should have the authority to pass that cost along. That additional burden of going after the individual violators should not IMO be placed on those public servants whose job it is to respond to and deal with emergency situations.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Well this one is a little off target.

"Civil cases usually involve private disputes between persons or organizations. Criminal cases involve an action that is considered to be harmful to society as a whole"

Blocking a fire lane is a crime (at least if my arguments about the fire code are correct) not a civil matter. You're probably thinking of the categories of crime. There are infractions, misdemeanors and felonies. This parking thing may be an infraction ( a not so serious crime) but the police will enforce parking regulations anywhere else in the city. Try telling a cop you can park next to a fire hydrant and he should go deal with emergency situations. The police patrol our neighborhood regularly, they don't have to turn a blind eye to fire safety just because the HOA owns the road.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanR8 on 05/08/2015 2:41 PM
I've got a question that I'm hoping someone with some legal knowledge ( maybe a real lawyer) would be able to answer.

Looking for someone with legal knowledge, you would need to ask a local attorney.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DanR8 on 05/08/2015 4:59 PM
Blocking a fire lane is a crime (at least if my arguments about the fire code are correct) not a civil matter. You're probably thinking of the categories of crime. There are infractions, misdemeanors and felonies. This parking thing may be an infraction ( a not so serious crime) but the police will enforce parking regulations anywhere else in the city. Try telling a cop you can park next to a fire hydrant and he should go deal with emergency situations. The police patrol our neighborhood regularly, they don't have to turn a blind eye to fire safety just because the HOA owns the road.


Run for mayor of your town. Get elected. Instruct your Chief of Police that his police officers are to enforce laws against obstructing emergency vehicle access on private streets. Easy Peasy.

Just make sure you don't make it part of your campaign. You might not get elected.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Yeah I know! I may bite the bullet and pay for one out of my own pocket one day. I was hoping that someone here had already done that. LOL
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
DFan

HOA roads and HOA parking rules. It is upto the HOA to enforce. Begin fining.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Dan

HOA roads and HOA parking rules. It is upto the HOA to enforce. Begin fining.
DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Not as simple as that! In the first place our governing documents don't include any provisions for fining. We can pass along the cost of enforcement, but we can't issue fines. The second and most important point is that when a car is parked on the roadside, we can't prove who it belongs to. We can't run the license plate number like the police can and we can't just send a bill to the nearest homeowner. What if people take to parking if front of the house next door?

What do some of you have against fire safety? What if the house on fire was yours? What if the next ambulance call was for you or someone in your family? Who would you rather depend on for your safety, a policeman or your HOA president?
PitA
Posts: 311
Posted:
Institute a towing program.

Contact a major towing company.

THEY will set it up legally as THEY will make money.

The HOA can still oversee the program.

Problem solved.

You will need to set up signage:

FIRE ZONE
NO PARKING
TOW-AWAY ZONE

+ whatever signage is required by local ordinance (the towing co. will handle)

The BOD is empowered to issue rules governing the operation of any common element.
The roads are a common element.
There are fire codes in place.

D'OH
DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Again, not as simple as that.

As I said in a post above

"At times, the tow truck has been called, but it takes an hour for the truck to get here and when it does, it makes so much noise that the car owner hears it and comes and moves the car and the tow truck goes back empty handed. "

Memphis requires that the property owner, supervisor or in our case the HOA president be present to sign for the tow. That means in all weather, I or another officer has to wait until the truck arrives. The law also prevents the tow company from seizing any car that has someone sitting in it, so all the scofflaw has to do is come out and lean against the car and the tow company has to leave with no compensation for time or gasoline. After a few dry runs like this the tow company realizes they're better off ignoring us and concentrating on accidents and other sure things. We're a waste of their time!

Problem not solved!
PitA
Posts: 311
Posted:
Memphis Towing Company: Vehicle Towing Services for Property Owners
If you own a business, a Memphis Towing Company can provide tow away services for your parking areas. In some areas where parking is scarce, vehicle owners may attempt to park in private lots intended for customers, employees or apartment tenants. This can create parking problems for the intended users. A Memphis Towing Company can help solve this by towing illegally parked vehicles from your property and most often this service is free to the business owner.

The Memphis Towing Company will provide you with state certified tow away signs informing drivers that they are parking on private property and that unauthorized vehicles will be towed away. This allows you, the property owner or manager to call and request towing of illegally parked vehicles any time day or night. A dispatcher will promptly send a tow truck to the location to remove the vehicle. The driver will thoroughly document the event, leave a copy with you and report the incident to the local police as well. The highly visible signs also serve to provide customers or tenants with a 24/7 emergency number should they need service or towing.

Let a Memphis Towing Company Monitor Your Private Parking Lot
The other option for property owners is to set up a schedule for patrols. Unlike a security company, the Memphis Towing Company doesn’t sit and monitor the property. Instead they have a set schedule for checking the lot for violators.

If a violation is spotted the driver will radio the supervisor of the Memphis Towing Company. Based on their knowledge of the local parking laws, the Memphis Towing Company supervisor can determine whether or not the vehicle needs to be towed. There are many laws and regulations involved around vehicle towing, so hiring knowledgeable staff is a must. A property owner wouldn’t want to find themselves involved in a lawsuit over car towing or vehicle damage. Once the vehicle is towed it then becomes the vehicle owner's responsibility to contact the impound lot used by the Memphis Towing Company.

Whether you're an individual who needs a tow from the scene of a fender-bender, or a business owner in need of someone to patrol your lot, there’s always a Memphis Towing Company to help you out. From car towing and truck towing to trailer towing, they’ll be there with reliable towing service.


Seems simple enough to me.
DanR8 (Tennessee)
Posts: 23
Posted:
How about calling the number of this company and asking about their monitoring program. I did. The wife of the owner was unaware their website said this. They don't monitor parking lots like it says. As I said in above posts, we have a tow company that will come out here if we call them. The trouble is they never nab a car. Furthermore a few years back the Memphis city council got upset when tow companies had the authority to monitor lots and tow violators. The allegations were that some unscrupulous operators were nabbing cars that were legally parked and saying they were parked somewhere else. Thus the edict came down that the property owner/manager had to be there to sign for the tow.

Anyway what seemed simple enough to you, isn't so simple. It would however be simple if the police would help.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
As others have said, if you want legal advice, you'll need to pony up for an attorney (sorry!)

However....our CCRs state that the city and county rules on parking, traffic and whatnot (can't remember the exact language) shall serve as our community's rules. We have two police officers who serve as security officers, and why they don't do daily patrols for X numbers of hours every day, they do drive through the community several times a week and look for inoperable cars (they'll put a warning sticker on the car and if it's not moved, the car will be towed at the owner's expense). They can also ticket drivers if they see them park on the sidewalk, in front of a fire hydrant, etc. It's not a perfect system, of course, but having them available does help resolve some problems. Perhaps you can talk to your local department to see if someone might be interested and find out what they would be able to do.

If you don't have a fining system, perhaps you can review your documents with your association attorney to see if they permit this - if so, set it up (may require homeowner approval). Propose the idea to the homeowners and ask for comments, then incorporate some of their suggestions into the new policy. You'll also have to think about how this will be enforced - will you hire someone to walk/drive through the community looking for violations? Will you take time/date stamped photos of the violators so you'll have proof? What will do you if visitors violate the rule? Will you have an appeals process? What will you do if the homeowner refuses to pay? And so on. All of that should also be announced to homeowners, along with an effective date of the policy (at least 30 days in advance is good so people will prepare).
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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