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LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Our bylaws state nothing about having to be "interviewed" for a board position. Indeed, none on the board has been interviewed, and I can find nothing in past minutes to indicate this is a new requirement. The only qualifications, which are in the bylaws, is that you have to be an owner and you have to be a member of the association (ours is voluntary, and maintains no common property). The interview was more of an interrogation.

There are several on the board who do not want me on the board (I am a professional parliamentarian, I expect enforcement of covenants, and I expect the association to follow the bylaws and laws (they have a hard time with complying with the covenants and bylaws). The president has stated publicly he does not care for Robert's Rules. The Nominating Committee chair (who is also the V-P) refused to answer my question on just what would disqualify a member from being on the board. I have a feeling they will not vote me in at their next meeting.

I have served on the board before (twice), served as a volunteer on committees, and even won an award for the best volunteer of the year (for the association). Some people just can't stand others who want to follow the bylaws and who are great volunteers. This board has no transparency, either.

Any suggestions on what I can do if I am not voted in. Personally, I think my only recourse would be to sue.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556
Posted:
Aren't your board positions elected?
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
What will suing your HOA do for you at the end of the day?
JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218
Posted:
I agree with Chyrstal. What purpose would be served if you sue? That sure would not endear you to the board when and if you did run for a position.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
First of all, forget about suing. Just because you're a homeowner, that doesn't automatically mean you get a spot on the board just because you want it. If the Board has the right to appoint someone for an empty seat, they can pick whoever they like, provided that person is a homeowner. That's the fun (or curse) of democracy - when there's an election, someone will win, others will lose. If the winner gets to appoint someone, he or she can choose whoever is best for the job. None of that means the best person will be placed in the position - you'll eventually find that out as time progresses and if people are paying attention, you can vote them out or recall them. And hopefully, that person(s) won't do too much damage in the meantime!

As far as interviews go, I do think it's helpful to ask people about their background and their vision for the community. It's better if those questions come from other homeowners, but if the Board is appointing someone, it is appropriate to ask some questions about why the person is interested and see if they understand what the job entails. In your case, it appears the president and vice president have some type of personality conflict with you, but what about the rest of the board members? If there are enough of them, they can outnumber these two and vote you in, so perhaps you can concentrate on making your case with them.

If you really want to join the board and they won't appoint you, run again whoever's up for re-election when the time comes. Then, you can campaign among your fellow homeowners - in the end, they're the ones who elect, re-elect (and recall!) board members!


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Please, clarify, there's a vacant seat on the Board not an annual election, right? The Board has the right to fill it. Is that correct, Lee?

Do your state laws or governing documents require your Board to follow RONR?
JonD1
Posts: 2,350
Posted:
So you plan to sue to force your way onto the board?

And I doubt the board just wishes to exclude super volunteers from the board.
My guess your stated EXPECTATIONS as to how you see the board operating might be the source of any hesitation.

IF theere is an open position IMO the board would have the right to interview you to see if they feel comfortable voting you in as a replacement.

IF there is an upcoming election IMO if the CCRs don't require any interview they would have no right to do so.

As a general rule forcing yourself upon people who would rather not deal with you rarely works out for the parties involved.

And your considering legal action is flawed thinking at best.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
I'd only see a lawsuit as being justified if you won a seat in a general election and the board refused to seat you. If the board is filling a vacancy, it's really up to them.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LeeS8 on 05/07/2015 10:23 PM
I am a professional parliamentarian

In the real world, what exactly does a professional parliamentarian do?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 05/08/2015 10:44 AM
Posted By LeeS8 on 05/07/2015 10:23 PM
I am a professional parliamentarian

In the real world, what exactly does a professional parliamentarian do?

I was wondering that myself
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM31 on 05/08/2015 10:58 AM
Posted By NpS on 05/08/2015 10:44 AM
Posted By LeeS8 on 05/07/2015 10:23 PM
I am a professional parliamentarian

In the real world, what exactly does a professional parliamentarian do?


I was wondering that myself

from a website:

How can a Professional Registered Parliamentarian help you?
A professional parliamentarian can serve your organization as a Meeting Parliamentarian, Convention Consultant, Written Parliamentary Opinions, Bylaws Writing and Interpretation, Parliamentary Procedure Workshops, and serving as a Professional Presiding Officer.

From another site:

Professional parliamentarian. Assistance with bylaws, rules, effectively and efficiently running meetings. One of only 30 highly credentialed parliamentarians in the world.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We rarely use Robert's Rules of Order (RONR--Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised) on our board of 7 except for meeting situations that are a little unusual. One example is we've occasionally had to reconsider a decision previously made.

Our bylaws do say we must use some established form of procedure, like RONR, at members meetings, but not for Board mtngs. Our members meeting for the past several years have been so routine, though, that no rigid guidelines are needed. Just motions & seconds to approve previous annual meetings' minutes, close nominations, close the polls, etc. We learned from Bruce that CT HOAs do require RONR. Parliamentarian Jim Slaughter has contributed to this forum occasionally.

I can see where a professional parliamentarian could be useful in a very large HOA with a large board of directors. But, and this is the OP's other complaint, one doesn't need to have such credentials to correctly abide by the HOA's covenants and bylaws. And if it were me this latter issues would be a lot more troubling than parl. procedure.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Lee

Several have asked is the interview to be appointed to the BOD or to run for a spot?

Personally I would not want a Parliamentarian on the BOD as I think they could slow things down especially in an informally run HOA such as ours is.

LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
There are elections at the annual meeting. The rest of the year, when vacancies occur, the board makes up its own rules in violation of the bylaws. The president, who is well know to despise Robert's Rules, has refused to acknowledge people who are calling for a point of order.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
A parliamentarian can cut to the chase in a meeting, especially those meetings that can run on and on. A parliamentarian is also there while, to advise the president, to protect the rights of the minority. When a person calls three times for a point of order, and the president just doesn't want to acknowledge that person, a parliamentarian can advise him/her that he is not in compliance with his parliamentary authority. A parliamentarian can function quite well in a small group. But when that same president has held an illegal election, and the other board members are afraid to speak out about it, there is a problem.

The interview was to get elected to the board between elections at an annual meeting. The same board has just appointed people (the president's friends). The ONLY qualifications are to be a homeowner and a member of the HOA. That's it.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Whether to sue has not been decided. The whole point is that you can't have a bully for a president; he totally ignores the state statutes and bylaws for his own power trip. Unfortunately, he does not care about the members. The rest of the board members are afraid of him and do not speak up at meetings. It is not a healthy situation.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Yes, the governing docs require the board to follow Robert's Rules. But the president does not like Robert's Rules so he doesn't follow them--even the basic ones.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
There are several open positions on the board. In fact, the president was begging for volunteers at the annual meeting. Neither the covenants nor the bylaws require an interview. The board decides which candidates they will interview, even in the same election!

When your life has been one of volunteering, and one is a fairly known citizen in the community, legal action when there has been slander is not flawed thinking at best. Are you an attorney? There will always be people on any board/team/etc., that some do not like. The whole purpose, though, in an HOA, is to protect the interests of homeowners and to ensure that property values are maintained. Spending thousands of dollars and refusing to tell the membership what they spent the money on is not serving the membership. I could go on and on, but will stop. Without knowing the makeup of the board, it is hard to explain things to others. Yes, the board has excluded super volunteers in the past, all because someone does not like someone else, rather than setting aside their personal feelings when the person(s) has (have) skills the board could use. In short, the maturity level of the board is not the best.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Several vacant seats, actually. Yes, Board has right to fill them. Yes, governing documents require RONR.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
There have never been more candidates than there were vacant positions. In short, all previous elections were done by acclamation at the annual meeting. Candidates submit a statement of their qualifications, and that info is published in the newsletter. But, between annual meeting elections, and depending on who you are, some get interviewed, others do not. Inconsistency is a big problem. Like any association, there is apathy among the majority of home owners. As far as campaigning among them, there shouldn't be that need (we are talking more than 2000 people--you need money to run that kind of campaign), since there are never more candidates than there are positions. I know it sounds crazy, but this is what has gone on. I wanted on the board to stop this kind of corruption.

Thank you for your comments, though. They would make great sense if the board did not have a bully president who ran things for his own purposes.All the people on the current board were just told they are on the board, except for one. The president just said the rest were on the board. So, you see, nothing is done according to proper and legal procedure. You'd think this was Chicago!
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Personally, I don't think much of the interview one way or another.

On the other hand, if an individual has been denied a seat on the board after being interviewed, then I think that person is entitled to an explanation of why he or she was denied a seat. If the only qualification for sitting on the board is HOA membership, then the Board IMO has no legitimate basis to exclude.

I think that an excluded candidate could have a legal claim against the HOA - and I think a judge might order the HOA to make that individual a Board member.

But that's the only thing I see here other than claims by the OP that the Prez is overbearing (which is not uncommon). Am I missing something?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556
Posted:
Why did a professional parliamentarian have to come here for an answer he should have known?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 05/11/2015 6:38 AM
Personally, I don't think much of the interview one way or another.

On the other hand, if an individual has been denied a seat on the board after being interviewed, then I think that person is entitled to an explanation of why he or she was denied a seat. If the only qualification for sitting on the board is HOA membership, then the Board IMO has no legitimate basis to exclude.

I think that an excluded candidate could have a legal claim against the HOA - and I think a judge might order the HOA to make that individual a Board member.

But that's the only thing I see here other than claims by the OP that the Prez is overbearing (which is not uncommon). Am I missing something?

Personally, I don’t think a judge would even listen to this – it’s one thing if the board won’t give access to documents a homeowner is entitled to according to the Bylaws and/or CCRs, but if those documents also give the Board the authority to appoint someone to a vacant spot, why MAKE them fill that spot with a specific person?

Now, if the board is operating without the proper number for a legal quorum or someone who isn’t a homeowner (or a delinquent one) is serving contrary to what the Bylaws say, that’s another story.

And you still have the matter of money – going to court isn’t free. You may win, but who pays the costs of the association to defend the lawsuit? You and your neighbors because you ARE the association. This would be a good time for legally binding arbitration (it can be cheaper and faster than going to court), but if there isn’t a low cost or free program that offers that service, you’re back to where you started.

I do have sympathy for you, Lee, if the president is a boor and no one, including the homeowners, has the….cashews to stand up to him. If change is really necessary, you’ll have to speak truth to power, meaning you need to talk to the homeowners, who can vote him out (along with the rest of the spineless board??). There may be a lot of homes in your community, but taking a walk and taking to a few neighbors at a time is what you’ll have to do if you really feel it needs to be done.

I know it’s a lot of people and it may seem you’re talking to a brick wall because no one’s listening, but change is never immediate or easy. It’s just a matter of how far you’re willing to go. And you never know – you may find a few homeowners who are just as ticked off and can band together with them. That’s how revolutions get started - good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Hi Lee

FYI. We have a certain etiquette here. When we respond to a specific message, we use "quote" instead of "reply". That way, it makes the thread easier for all to follow.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Sheila nailed it when she wrote: "I do have sympathy for you, Lee, if the president is a boor and no one, including the homeowners, has the….cashews to stand up to him. If change is really necessary, you’ll have to speak truth to power, meaning you need to talk to the homeowners, who can vote him out (along with the rest of the spineless board??). There may be a lot of homes in your community, but taking a walk and taking to a few neighbors at a time is what you’ll have to do if you really feel it needs to be done.

I know it’s a lot of people and it may seem you’re talking to a brick wall because no one’s listening, but change is never immediate or easy. It’s just a matter of how far you’re willing to go. And you never know – you may find a few homeowners who are just as ticked off and can band together with them. That’s how revolutions get started - good luck!"

In our bylaws, Lee, if the Board fails to fill vacancies, owners may do It (I can look up the exact wording if you're interested). So... are all vacancies now filled? If not, what do your bylaws say about this? If silent and your HOA is incorporated, perhaps NM's corporations codes say something.

How many directors are your supposed to have per your governing docs?
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 05/11/2015 8:36 AM
Posted By NpS on 05/11/2015 6:38 AM
Personally, I don't think much of the interview one way or another.

On the other hand, if an individual has been denied a seat on the board after being interviewed, then I think that person is entitled to an explanation of why he or she was denied a seat. If the only qualification for sitting on the board is HOA membership, then the Board IMO has no legitimate basis to exclude.

I think that an excluded candidate could have a legal claim against the HOA - and I think a judge might order the HOA to make that individual a Board member.

But that's the only thing I see here other than claims by the OP that the Prez is overbearing (which is not uncommon). Am I missing something?


Personally, I don’t think a judge would even listen to this – it’s one thing if the board won’t give access to documents a homeowner is entitled to according to the Bylaws and/or CCRs, but if those documents also give the Board the authority to appoint someone to a vacant spot, why MAKE them fill that spot with a specific person?


The question we can't answer is whether the interview process is a means to discriminate against someone. Consider the following scenario:

A. Vacancy on board.
B. OP applies to fill vacancy.
C. Board notifies OP that interview is required.
D. Before OP's interview takes place, Prez finds a crony who will fill the vacant position.
E. Vacancy gone before OP is interviewed.

In this case, the interview process is just a way to stall and exclude.

I could see where a judge would force the Board to accept the OP because there was no legitimate basis for the exclusion.

Of course, if the Board could show that the interview requirement is consistently applied, that would probably lead to a different outcome.

Much depends on information that hasn't been supplied yet.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Yes, I already know answers. But laws and your bylaws from others on this discussion often have insight that is good to know. It is one thing to have your HOA follow a parliamentary authority, and it is another that the HOA also comply with your own state law. Some of this will require getting an ordinance amended, so getting input and insight from others is always enlightening.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
Yes, a lot of people, as in 2,100 homes.
No, not all positions they could fill are filled. Indeed, there are three committees that did not even meet all of last year. The president, who is supposed to be the leader, said that the bylaws don't require committees to meet. (Can you believe this guy?!) We can have up to 25 director; the minimum is 11, and that was a bylaw change that barely passed. It is not enough people. The BOD is authorized to fill vacancies between annual meetings.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So, Lee, do your bylaws allow Owners to fill vacancies if the Board doesn't? Are there now 11 directors?
PitA
Posts: 311
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM31 on 05/11/2015 8:17 AM
Why did a professional parliamentarian have to come here for an answer he should have known?

D'OH
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
What is the "ordinance" that you'd like to see amended, Lee?
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
The scenario above is one of those that actually happened.
Board members are elected at an annual meeting, and between meetings, candidates are "interviewed" (no requirement in the CCRs or bylaws for an interview) and board members vote.

I will close out this discussion. I learned there are some legal issues coming up and, frankly, I don't think it would be wise to be on the board when they do. When people sue, they also sue board members individually, and the potential for a class action lawsuit against the board is quite high (all this in the past 4 days).

Thank you everyone for your comments. We have a terrible situation with our HOA, and several have already resigned from it over the past week (it is not a mandatory membership HOA). I am going to resign from it as well. The benefits are miniscule, and it is disgusting to watch the board spend the dues revenue as fast as it comes in. When you ask what the money was spent on, you are told you cannot get that info. A terrible situation all around, and my decision is based on the fact that this board will self-destruct on its own!

Again, thanks everyone. Time to focus on more positive things, like my family.
LeeS8 (New Mexico)
Posts: 14
Posted:
KerryL1 - I would be interested in the language in your bylaws about filling board vacancies. Thank you!
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Lee, you didn't ask me but I'll give my HOA's bylaws language on the subject...

"Board Vacancies. Should a vacancy occur at any time during a term for any reason in the membership of the Board of Directors, a majority of the remaining members of the Board of Directors shall have the power to select a person to fill such vacancy until the next annual meeting."

My own interpretation of that is that our board has great flexibility in the event of a resignation. They can agree at a meeting that any member who stands up and volunteers to serve on the board can be selected and seated that same day as a director. Or they can undertake a qualification process as they see fit, and if their preferred process includes interviewing members who would like to be on the board, then they can do that. Or they can do nothing. Nothing compels them to select anyone if they choose not to do so.

Good luck with your situation. A non-mandatory HOA is a horse of a different color, I'm afraid, from anything I'm familiar with.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'll pull out that bylaws language later today. I don't know if our bylaws language is in CA Corporations Code but if it is, it would trump bylaws that are silent on that matter, yes?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Geno

You say:

"Board Vacancies. Should a vacancy occur at any time during a term for any reason in the membership of the Board of Directors, a majority of the remaining members of the Board of Directors shall have the power to select a person to fill such vacancy until the next annual meeting."

In his book, Legal Writing in Plain English, Bryan Garner suggests that we delete all our shalls in favor of a more precise word. If the goal of drafting is precision, then surely we should avoid a word that gets used by lawyers and interpreted by courts inconsistently. Even the federal government has jumped on the bandwagon. In its Plain Language Guidelines, the feds take aim at shall, describing it as “officious” and “obsolete.” Drafters are encouraged to delete shall in favor of must to impose obligations. This approach — wholesale elimination — is called the ABC Rule. The rule is named after the Australian, British and Canadian proponents who concluded that lawyers could never be trained to use shall consistently.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 05/22/2015 1:22 AM
Lee, you didn't ask me but I'll give my HOA's bylaws language on the subject...

"Board Vacancies. Should a vacancy occur at any time during a term for any reason in the membership of the Board of Directors, a majority of the remaining members of the Board of Directors shall have the power to select a person to fill such vacancy until the next annual meeting."

My own interpretation of that is that our board has great flexibility in the event of a resignation. They can agree at a meeting that any member who stands up and volunteers to serve on the board can be selected and seated that same day as a director. Or they can undertake a qualification process as they see fit, and if their preferred process includes interviewing members who would like to be on the board, then they can do that. Or they can do nothing. Nothing compels them to select anyone if they choose not to do so.


I agree with your reading Geno ... as long as the process chosen is consistently applied to all applicants. If a dual standard is applied, favoring some groups over others, the practice is suspect and subject to challenge.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Here's the excerpt, Lee, from our bylaws, Article, 5.7, "Vacancies.... The Members may at any time elect directors to fill any vacancy not filled by the directors..."

As I said, I don't know if this comes from CA Corps. Code & don't have time to check, but you might want to check similar codes in NM.

Still, your plan to back off for a while since it's a voluntary HOA and you have no common areas makes sense.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 05/22/2015 11:17 AM
I agree with your reading Geno ... as long as the process chosen is consistently applied to all applicants. If a dual standard is applied, favoring some groups over others, the practice is suspect and subject to challenge.

Oh yes, we are consistent if nothing else! We just had a director resign last week leaving us with 6.

It's going into the slow rainy summer season here now, so there's no rush for us to fill the seat, but we'd still like to do it. A member could literally show up at our board meeting next week and, if there were no other volunteers, they would be on the board immediately.

And JohnC, that's interesting. I thought the "shall" vs "should" debate had been settled long ago. I'll have a look and file it away for what I hope will be our document cleanup effort that's not too far away.

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