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LorraineF1 (Oregon)
Posts: 19
Posted:
Wondering if other HOAs face this issue - when a self managed HOA Board is reluctant to enforce violations of the stated rules because a majority of board members doesn't want to risk offending an owner by requiring compliance with a rule (from the bylaws and/or Declaration!) that has to do with aesthetics.

An owner placed a large (4'x6') flag representing his UW sports team on a patio wall of his building. The bylaws and Declaration specifically address (in different sections) (a) not decorating exterior walls and (b) not hanging rugs, laundry, etc., on a patio wall - in each instance without approval in writing from the Board. The Board voted not to ask the owner to remove the flag because they didn't feel they would be able to decide which things were ok to hang and approve and which things were not ok to approve.

Two owners complained to the Board about the flag, stating it looked tacky and not appropriate (and citing the appropriate bylaws/declaration language); they were told the complaint could not be given to the owner unless the two owners were willing to have their names made available to the owner in question. The owners complaining were upset that the Board appeared to not be willing to enforce the clearly stated rules and regulations and that the Board was in effect stating that no complaints would be heard unless the names of those complaining could be given to the person against whom the complaint was made.

How do other HOAs handle this delicate situation of making complaints? These owners were willing to give their names to the Board to make the complaint; they didn't feel comfortable having their names shared w/ the other owner against whom they made the complaint. They felt targeted and implicitly encouraged not to complain about things which were obvious violations of stated rules.

Is this a common issue with self managed HOAs and how do other HOAs handle the issue?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Lorraine

We say a complaint must be signed by the complainer. That said we do look at each one (even if not signed) and if the complaint is legitimate, then the BOD (our MC actually) becomes the official complainant.

Your problem is the BOD does not have a set of.......
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I also hate when people tell you that you must reveal your name if you file a complaint against them. I don't think it really matters the source as long as there is valid verifiable complaint/violation. However, there are those type of people who want to know everything and why. They think they need to know the name of who accuses them which is an excuse to intimidate people in my opinion.

It is hard being a board member and to be confronted with this quandary. You are not only a board member but a homeowner/neighbor to everyone as well. So you can imagine how uncomfortable it is to have to approach your good neighbor the "Jones" and tell them to put their dog on a leash. No one wants to be THAT person. Even though you are doing your job as a board representative.

What I found to be a solution is multifold. First, if you submit a letter of complaint to the board then I feel it should be read at the meeting. If it is an OPEN meeting, then you read it in front of EVERYONE. However, we NEVER EVER used names but the Lot # ONLY. We did not accept letters from those who did not include that information. You have to realize in an OPEN meeting situation that ALL business is transacted in front of all the members so a letter is part of the business. The board is to act NOT the rest of the owners. They can just see the board is going to take or not take action and why.

The other way we handled things is to send out violation letters quoting directly from the rules. No flowery language just the facts. According to section X.XX.Y "You can not put up a sports flag etc...". We would then tell them to attend a meeting to address the issue, comply, or tell them if we removed it, we would send them the bill for correcting the issue. If you have a fining schedule, then you can state the fine and rate of it instead. We did not do fines.

Keep in mind can ONLY do this to the owners and NOT the renters. The owners are HOA members NOT the renter. So address your violations to the owner for actions.

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Your Board, Lorraine, does not need the names of those who complain when anyone can see this flag.

Your Board, based on previous posts, is just too cowardly to follow your violation procedures and get this flag removed. Their insistence that the complainers give their names is a bogus excuse to neglect complying with your governing documents.

It is not a quandary an it is not a delicate situation. You're on the board and should urge the others to follow your documents.

Why do you think it matters that you're self managed?
EW4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 95
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LorraineF1 on 04/16/2015 12:44 PM
Wondering if other HOAs face this issue - when a self managed HOA Board is reluctant to enforce violations of the stated rules because a majority of board members doesn't want to risk offending an owner by requiring compliance with a rule (from the bylaws and/or Declaration!) that has to do with aesthetics.

An owner placed a large (4'x6') flag representing his UW sports team on a patio wall of his building. The bylaws and Declaration specifically address (in different sections) (a) not decorating exterior walls and (b) not hanging rugs, laundry, etc., on a patio wall - in each instance without approval in writing from the Board. The Board voted not to ask the owner to remove the flag because they didn't feel they would be able to decide which things were ok to hang and approve and which things were not ok to approve.

Two owners complained to the Board about the flag, stating it looked tacky and not appropriate (and citing the appropriate bylaws/declaration language); they were told the complaint could not be given to the owner unless the two owners were willing to have their names made available to the owner in question. The owners complaining were upset that the Board appeared to not be willing to enforce the clearly stated rules and regulations and that the Board was in effect stating that no complaints would be heard unless the names of those complaining could be given to the person against whom the complaint was made.

How do other HOAs handle this delicate situation of making complaints? These owners were willing to give their names to the Board to make the complaint; they didn't feel comfortable having their names shared w/ the other owner against whom they made the complaint. They felt targeted and implicitly encouraged not to complain about things which were obvious violations of stated rules.

Is this a common issue with self managed HOAs and how do other HOAs handle the issue?


Big issues in my community. I am a board member and I am frustrated beyond belief with mine. Self managed as well. Early on (before I moved here) letters were sent, then attorney contacted, some taken to court. Over the years things have changed nothing done to one person was visiting homes (voted to stop, safety. At on point I took on the role with board approved/legally reviewed letters, documented everything had board votes before sending. When things got tough the majority of the board stepped back and left me holding the bag. So, I stepped away. The next person who stepped did the same with documenting, using board approved/legally reviewed letters, board votes, he even had to send letters to some board members. When things got tough the majority of the board did what was done to me plus let the perception that he was solely responsible for the letters. Homeowners publicly ripped the guy apart in an open meeting and the President let it happen.

Fast forward I can't tell you what this board is doing and I am on it. At least one member is supposedly knocking on doors,...but he won't provide details. No complaints have really been fixed or answered. I recently heard that some community members feel they were disrespected and marginalized because they received letters about their violations. Furthermore, the majority of the board does not want to write or sign compliance letters. Taking the lets be a friend/buddy approach I guess.

However, we are supposedly moving to adopt more of the UCIOA. The current draft for our community includes documenting issues, documenting contacts, writing letters, issuing fines. Everything they say they don't want to do.

As far as the person making the complaint signing it, that should not be necessary.
LorraineF1 (Oregon)
Posts: 19
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/16/2015 3:58 PM
Your Board, Lorraine, does not need the names of those who complain when anyone can see this flag.

Your Board, based on previous posts, is just too cowardly to follow your violation procedures and get this flag removed. Their insistence that the complainers give their names is a bogus excuse to neglect complying with your governing documents.

It is not a quandary an it is not a delicate situation. You're on the board and should urge the others to follow your documents.

Why do you think it matters that you're self managed?

What I understand from researching self managed vs. mgt. company managed HOAs is that the former is often reluctant to enforce rules because they don't want to be seen as the bad guy. Whereas, a mgt. company appears as a disinterested party and can more easily enforce/fine owners so that neighbors are not seen in a negative light. I'm interested if you don't agree, or have a different perspective?
LorraineF1 (Oregon)
Posts: 19
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LorraineF1 on 04/16/2015 5:05 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/16/2015 3:58 PM
Your Board, Lorraine, does not need the names of those who complain when anyone can see this flag.

Your Board, based on previous posts, is just too cowardly to follow your violation procedures and get this flag removed. Their insistence that the complainers give their names is a bogus excuse to neglect complying with your governing documents.

It is not a quandary an it is not a delicate situation. You're on the board and should urge the others to follow your documents.

Why do you think it matters that you're self managed?


What I understand from researching self managed vs. mgt. company managed HOAs is that the former is often reluctant to enforce rules because they don't want to be seen as the bad guy. Whereas, a mgt. company appears as a disinterested party and can more easily enforce/fine owners so that neighbors are not seen in a negative light. I'm interested if you don't agree, or have a different perspective?

I do wonder about the rules that have an aesthetic component (my term). we've run across this issue before where a judgment about correct/incorrect, ok/not ok, aesthetic nuisance or pleasing detail is involved. Some of the board members lean heavily on these kinds of rules and choose not to act for fear of irritating owners - (if I can't put anything above the fence line, are you going to make me take down my hanging geranium?!, etc.) I was hoping others have been able to more easily walk around these kinds of rules. This board tends to err (obviously) on the side of making everyone happy, which of course, ironically, makes many unhappy.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 163
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/16/2015 3:58 PM
Your Board, Lorraine, does not need the names of those who complain when anyone can see this flag.

Your Board, based on previous posts, is just too cowardly to follow your violation procedures and get this flag removed. Their insistence that the complainers give their names is a bogus excuse to neglect complying with your governing documents.

It is not a quandary an it is not a delicate situation. You're on the board and should urge the others to follow your documents.

Why do you think it matters that you're self managed?

Kerry

Exactly where do you see anything resembling the hanging of a flag in the content of what the OP posted? I see not decorating exterior walls and hanging rugs and laundry.

You think since the poster is from Oregon and the flag is from the University of Washington make a difference.

My suggestion, create a rule specifically addressing flags. Issue solved.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Lorraine,

The board has the discretion to choose which battles to fight and which to walk away from. If they choose to do battle with an owner over a trivial matter, they will do so at risk of consuming an unlimited amount of money to be paid by all members. Conceivably, the board could be placed in a position where at some future time they must tell owners to live with the leaky roof because all their assessments have gone to pay for the flag fight. There is no upper limit on what a legal battle may cost.

The two alleged complaining owners also have the discretion to fight this battle at their own expense and have apparently chosen not to engage. Instead of fighting their own battle at their own expense, they ask the board to not only fight the battle at the expense of everyone else but also to keep their names out of it. An owner unwilling to take a stand on an issue has no right to expect the board to take a stand for them.

You appear to have some poorly written rules scattered in multiple places. I will not try to second-guess the board but if you and others are unhappy then, as always, your solution lies at the ballot box.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Richard, read Lorraine's, rule again. It states owners cannot decorate patio walls. Very clear! Lorraine's wording is a little unclear though. I can't visualize a flag "on" a patio wall.

Lorraine, we have the same rule and no one breaks it. If someone did, you can bet that neighbors would report the violation and the Board would take action per our governing docs & state laws.

Our rules and those of all the condos around us are the same. The reason is to prevent penetration into these walls that might permit water intrusion.

Whether or not you have a PM, it is the board who meets with the owner to a hearing and who writes out what the violator must do to cure the violation.

I don't think, Larry, that Lorraine has said the violator is going to sue anyone. Why should owners send this violator a letter and try to solve this??
One reason owners like HOAs and pay dues to them is so that the Board can handle violations and keep the community attractive. The answer, imo, takes us back to JohnC's reply.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 163
Posted:
Kerry

I did read her comment. The flag could also be on a flag pole mounted to the wall. To me that is not decorating. I feel the issue is where the flag is from. She could have said a flag was placed on the patio wall.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LorraineF1 on 04/16/2015 12:44 PM

How do other HOAs handle this delicate situation of making complaints? These owners were willing to give their names to the Board to make the complaint; they didn't feel comfortable having their names shared w/ the other owner against whom they made the complaint. They felt targeted and implicitly encouraged not to complain about things which were obvious violations of stated rules.

Is this a common issue with self managed HOAs and how do other HOAs handle the issue?

I live in a self managed Association. I have served on our enforcement arm (architectural committee) and am now serving on the Board.

Our Association does require complaints of alleged violations to be in writing (e-mail works).

If the violation can be validated (parking violations, etc.) by a member of the Committee, the committee takes on the issue of enforcement.

If the violation can not be validated (failure to pick up after dog, etc.), then the member will be required to be a witness at any hearing on the issue.

If the violation may be a neighbor vs. neighbor issue (excessive noise for example) we require complaints by two Lots before the Association will become involved.

Our process is to not reveal the name of the complainant unless it's necessary at a hearing (for issues the Association can't verify independently) or through legal discovery process (reason for written complaint). We simply state that the Association has been made aware of xyz.

What tends to be a common issue (in America) is that individuals are less willing to talk to their neighbors and want someone else to do it for them. Hence, the complaints to the Association over noise, etc.

In fact, we had one person who was attacked by a dog make a complaint to the Association. Our response was to report the issue to animal control. They didn't want to do that because their name would be involved, but still insisted that the Association do something about the attack instead.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/16/2015 8:44 PM

I don't think, Larry, that Lorraine has said the violator is going to sue anyone.

When a board takes on an owner over a petty matter, there is no telling where it may lead. Maybe the guy will take the flag down without a fight or . . . maybe the entire alumni of UW will jump to his defense and drag this thing all the way to the Supreme Court. Is it worth taking that risk? The OP's board apparently does not feel that they have a strong enough case to take that chance.

Quote:

Why should owners send this violator a letter and try to solve this??

Because it is their fight. No one else seems to be in their corner.

Quote:

One reason owners like HOAs and pay dues to them is so that the Board can handle violations and keep the community attractive.

Actually, most condo owners purchase with the unrealistic expectation that someone else will take responsibility for everything for them.

The board's job is to exercise it's judgment to maintain the property in good condition. In this case the board has done just that. If owners are not satisfied with their board's judgment the proper thing to do is to elect a new board, which won't happen because those who expect others to take responsibility are not likely to take the responsibility to elect a new board.

EW4 (West Virginia)
Posts: 95
Posted:


What tends to be a common issue (in America) is that individuals are less willing to talk to their neighbors and want someone else to do it for them. Hence, the complaints to the Association over noise, etc.

In fact, we had one person who was attacked by a dog make a complaint to the Association. Our response was to report the issue to animal control. They didn't want to do that because their name would be involved, but still insisted that the Association do something about the attack instead.


True, neighbors tend not to talk to each other and that is tragic consequence of the world we live in. Your dog example is not uncommon. In my neighborhood we have one person who gives another the finger while she is she is cutting grass. The entire time she is cutting grass...she switches hands when she changes direction!! The recipient simply asked her to not cut his. Another neighbor walks 10 -15 feet up a property owners driveway, leashes his dogs out another 25' and let's them leave " presents " in the yard. Homeowner asks dog owner repeatedly to leave and don't come back dog owner curses homeowner out and keeps coming back. That propery owner is going to call the police in future and take video. Neither issue is HOA related but can explain reluctance to resolve neighbor to neighbor.
LorraineF1 (Oregon)
Posts: 19
Posted:
LarryB13

Part of this issue, from my perspective, is how to keep a 'uniform look' to the complex, such that it doesn't become a loosely connected set of buildings/units, each with diverse ideas of what the outside of their units look like. I believe this is why such rules are put into the bylaws/declarations. Otherwise, you end up, especially with renters, a sloppy and unattractive complex that doesn't attract owners who want to live there. That's the underlying question? ambiguity? about such rules. How to enforce them to protect owners' property value rights and continue to have a viable complex.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I agree with you, Lorraine. I can see the balcony walls of probably 2 dozen units in our twin high rises. These balcony walls and ceilings are exclusive use common areas--we residents get to use them, but the HOA can make rules about them. No "decoration" of any kind can go on these walls. They must be repainted the same color as the original. Only certain items may be kept on these balconies. These aesthetic reasons--to maintain uniformity--are accepted by all. If a newcomer (very rarely) breaks this rule, s/he is sent a courtesy letter to correct it. No one ever has continued such a violation (which typically insobvolves storing bicycles on balconies, patios or decks..

NOthing can be "hung" on them or nailed on them or screwed into them. The Rule exists to protect the building's structure and prevent water intrusion. All high rises around here have the same rules

And, of course, all Owners expect the HOA to enforce these rules. Now, Larry wrote: "The board's job is to exercise it's [sic] judgment to maintain the property in good condition." Yet Lorraine's Board colleagues, ignored a rule that promotes the good appearance of the property.

It's not enough to just to maintain items in the technical/mechanical sense, but also aesthetically. That's why HOAs pay to have gardeners take are of their landscaping. And this may matter more to folks who live in close proximity to others' patios & balconies when such ARE governed by HOA rules.

So, Yes, Lorraine, change your rules to be more specific, or loosen them or whatever. For now, IMO, they should be enforced by your Board! Just because only two other owners complained doesn't mean that many more find this "flag" unsightly.

Can you tell us more about the flag?? Is it nailed to the patio wall? Or what?? Are these wall separate interest private property? or Exclusive use common areas? Or something else?

Is your HOA you condos or town homes?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/17/2015 1:03 PM

So, Yes, Lorraine, change your rules to be more specific, or loosen them or whatever. For now, IMO, they should be enforced by your Board!

The crux of the problem seems to be that the issue is not specifically addressed in the rules, which is apparently why the board is taking no action. Kerry, what you suggest is to take action to enforce a rule that does not exist and then create the rule at some later date. My advice to you would be if you feel that the board is not doing a proper job then join the board. Knock on a few doors and ask the owners for their vote so you can be on the board and fine them for the way their home looks.
LorraineF1 (Oregon)
Posts: 19
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/17/2015 1:03 PM
I agree with you, Lorraine. I can see the balcony walls of probably 2 dozen units in our twin high rises. These balcony walls and ceilings are exclusive use common areas--we residents get to use them, but the HOA can make rules about them. No "decoration" of any kind can go on these walls. They must be repainted the same color as the original. Only certain items may be kept on these balconies. These aesthetic reasons--to maintain uniformity--are accepted by all. If a newcomer (very rarely) breaks this rule, s/he is sent a courtesy letter to correct it. No one ever has continued such a violation (which typically insobvolves storing bicycles on balconies, patios or decks..

NOthing can be "hung" on them or nailed on them or screwed into them. The Rule exists to protect the building's structure and prevent water intrusion. All high rises around here have the same rules

And, of course, all Owners expect the HOA to enforce these rules. Now, Larry wrote: "The board's job is to exercise it's [sic] judgment to maintain the property in good condition." Yet Lorraine's Board colleagues, ignored a rule that promotes the good appearance of the property.

It's not enough to just to maintain items in the technical/mechanical sense, but also aesthetically. That's why HOAs pay to have gardeners take are of their landscaping. And this may matter more to folks who live in close proximity to others' patios & balconies when such ARE governed by HOA rules.

So, Yes, Lorraine, change your rules to be more specific, or loosen them or whatever. For now, IMO, they should be enforced by your Board! Just because only two other owners complained doesn't mean that many more find this "flag" unsightly.

Can you tell us more about the flag?? Is it nailed to the patio wall? Or what?? Are these wall separate interest private property? or Exclusive use common areas? Or something else?

Is your HOA you condos or town homes?

The rules (as I assume most bylaws/declarations are that haven't been written in the last 25 years) are somewhat vague - meaning they do not name every single thing that could be a possible infraction of 'no decoration'. Otherwise, each time some new issue came up, you'd have to amend the rules to include the new 'thing' that offends. That someone thinks this is about the content of the flag is pretty funny; I only mentioned it to give some context to what the flag was. It appears to be nailed (I haven't gone up close to it) and is on the patio wall and because of the placement of the building, is visible from the entire complex. These are condos. Everything studs out is technically common area with each owner having a percentage of interest. The declaration and bylaws do, however, cover this issue of hanging things from walls and above the fence lines.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Our HOA board lets a lot of violations slide, not because they don't want to offend anyone, but rather because state law requires a 3-person committee to hear to investigate the complaints and recommend fines which the board must then approve. That's a lot of work! (sarcasm) It's hard enough getting people to volunteer for the board and committees as it is without needing to look for more people willing to be the bad guy when it comes to fines. It's not a huge problem at present, but as more and more homes turn over - a third in the last 3 years - we have more and more new people who are "pushing the envelope" to see what they can and cannot get away with. My preference is to start cracking down, in a fair but firm manner, so it doesn't become a big problem long-term. So far mine is but a voice in the wilderness.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
One of the main justifications for our HOA hiring a Management Company was to let them play the "heavy" when it comes to enforcing things. They readily accepted that this was a common justification and they were ready to play that role.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
But, Larry, I think the optic IS addressed in Lorraine's rules: "The bylaws and Declaration specifically address (in different sections) (a) not decorating exterior walls." And Lorraine IS on the Board.

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