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EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
I realize that this may differ from state to state, but has anyone ever tried to repeal their bylaws and then activate a new set?

Ours (and our CERs) appear to have been created by sloppy cut and paste from some master documents. They include ambiguities and errors and some of us would like to start over.

"These Bylaws may be altered, or repealed, or new Bylaws may be adopted by vote of sixty-seven (67%) percent of the total number of votes represented by Association Members, in person or by proxy, at any meeting of the Association duly constituted for such purpose at which a quorum is present, and prior to which written notice of the exact language of the amendment or of the repeal or new Bylaws shall have been sent to each Member at least ten (10) days prior to the meeting."

So we're permitted to do it and we can call for/force a special meeting.

Just looking for any experiences.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
HOA Bylaws are generally undergirded by any given state's corporations codes. Your 67% is higher than our simple majority, which is needed to approve.

The language, I think, is amend for a few changes, or "rewrite" for a fundamental change. Ours too, are boilerplate and i imagine that's common.

We tried to rewrite ours but only reached about 40% and my board was too impatient to try to extend the approval period and send out targeted pleas to those who hadn't voted. i recall it cost us maybe $12-1,500 in attorney's fees and the ballots mailer.

What is is that you want to change Edward? It sounds like you;re trying to do many things at once in your HOA.
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
What did the attorneys do for you?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
HOA attorneys make sure that the rewritten bylaws comply with and do not conflict with with state and federal laws and sometimes municipal laws.

In addition, bylaws may not contradict or conflict with "higher level" documents such as your CC&Rs and Articles of Incorporation.

What about your bylaws bothers you, Edward?
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/31/2015 3:36 PM
In addition, bylaws may not contradict or conflict with "higher level" documents such as your CC&Rs and Articles of Incorporation.

At they say "It is not uncommon to find conflicts within or between governing
documents such as the covenants and the bylaws. There may also be conflicts between governing documents and statutes. When this occurs,
attorneys must often consider applying Rules of Interpretation."

We have conflicts, ambiguities, irrelevancies, legalese... Need I say more?
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Oops! The URL got trashed. It's www.hoa-usa.com/statelaws/nj.aspx
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
We have amended our docs many times, but we never had more than 3 changes on any single amendment. The reason is straightforward - the entire document is voted on: Yea or Nay.

Let's say you made 5 changes to your docs Edward. Those changes will not pass unless 67% of the owners (not just 67% of the voters) agree with all 5 of your changes. Anyone who agrees with 4 changes but disagrees with the 5th is going to vote against your rewrite. And the more changes you make, the lower your chances of getting enough votes.

You are proposing an entire rewrite. not just a handful of changes. Do you honestly think that you can get 67% of the owners to agree with all of the changes you would like to make?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 03/31/2015 4:06 PM
We have amended our docs many times, but we never had more than 3 changes on any single amendment. The reason is straightforward - the entire document is voted on: Yea or Nay. Let's say you made 5 changes to your docs Edward. Those changes will not pass unless 67% of the owners (not just 67% of the voters) agree with all 5 of your changes. Anyone who agrees with 4 changes but disagrees with the 5th is going to vote against your rewrite. And the more changes you make, the lower your chances of getting enough votes. You are proposing an entire rewrite. not just a handful of changes. Do you honestly think that you can get 67% of the owners to agree with all of the changes you would like to make?

I asked for experiences, not admonitions.
JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218
Posted:
Our HOA was made up of 118 homes; 55 street facing homes and 63 garden court homes. The street facing homeowners wanted to separate and kept pushing the board to take action. Our MC at the time had a lawyer start the process. They said it would take $10,000 to re-write our by-laws (to remove all reference to street-facing lots). We fired our MC and used a different law firm who charged us $1500 or so for a simple amendment to our by-laws. They scoffed at the reason for a total-rewrite. In retrospect it appeared to the board that our former law firm was doing a money grab to pad their billing hours. In the end, the amendment did pass with more than 67% of the required vote. We are a much smaller HOA and the street-facing homeowners are on their own.

Good luck with your HOA's action.
JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218
Posted:
Edited to add the following: We had our new law firm write the amendment and our MC sent out a mailer to the homeowners for comments. We scheduled 2 information meetings (attended by the lawyer to answer questions). We served refreshments at each meeting to encourage attendance. As for voting, we needed 67% of 118 homes for it to pass. I believe we ended up with 69% approval. We had online voting (matched to their HOA account) and actual ballots. The board members also knocked on neighbor's doors and explained the issues. After approval, the HOA membership was notified. By state law, homeowners apparently have a full year to contest the changes to our by-laws but would have to file a lawsuit (highly unlikely).

A total, our costs were:

$1500 for the law firm to write the amendment and attend 2 informational meetings
$750 in MC administrative costs such as their time to process mailers, verifying membership votes, etc
$200 in refreshment costs

I am missing some of the misc costs but I think our total expenses were $2700 or so. Time from the amendment being written and the final approval vote was 4 months.
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
THANK YOU, JERRY!! Very valuable information.

We've actually passed a couple of amendments, one a highly controversial "tort immunity" clause! Current insurance carrier promised a doubling of the premium if it didn't pass, board member claimed no one would underwrite us w/o such a clause, etc. Eventually, FUD won out and now we have:

Article X, Section 10.05 [should be 10.5]
Except where there is a willful, wanton or grossly negligent act of commission or omission by the Association, the Association shall not be liable in any civil action brought by or on behalf of an owner, to respond in damages as a result of bodily injury, including death resulting from bodily injury to the owner occurring on Association property.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
I withdraw my comment.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 03/31/2015 5:34 PM
I withdraw my comment.


Correction: I repeal my comment.

Good luck on your efforts to "force a special meeting" to get your rewrite passed.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EdwardC1 on 03/31/2015 2:02 PM
I realize that this may differ from state to state, but has anyone ever tried to repeal their bylaws and then activate a new set?

Yes, so to speak.

In 1993, we amended our CC&Rs and Bylaws. It was a huge effort but we effectively replaced the whole document with a new one. The votes were to accept the new set as written.
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 03/31/2015 5:39 PM
Posted By NpS on 03/31/2015 5:34 PM
I withdraw my comment.
Correction: I repeal my comment. Good luck on your efforts to "force a special meeting" to get your rewrite passed.
Again, if you don't have something positive to add, why not just give your keyboard a rest?
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
When Ohio passed an update of its Condo statutes in 2004, it contained a clause to allow COA's to update their By-laws to conform with the new law without a homeowner vote. While the law governs, whether or not the By-laws are updated, this removed any ambiguities between the old and the new.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 03/31/2015 8:41 PM
Posted By EdwardC1 on 03/31/2015 2:02 PM
I realize that this may differ from state to state, but has anyone ever tried to repeal their bylaws and then activate a new set?


Yes, so to speak.

In 1993, we amended our CC&Rs and Bylaws. It was a huge effort but we effectively replaced the whole document with a new one. The votes were to accept the new set as written.

I should say that ours took over 2 years to accomplish a full rewrite.

We hired a firm to do an initial rewrite.
Formed a committee to review and make changes.
Published a draft to the membership to review
Held informational meeting for questions and receive membership suggestions
Board reviewed draft and membership suggestions and made changes
Sent the whole thing for a legal opinion
Board made changes based on the legal opinion
Published the proposed documents for review
Solicited proxies like crazy
Held information meeting on proposed document
Solicited proxies like crazy
Held meeting for vote

Had 80% turn out (between proxies and attendance) and achieved enough to make changes.

Had attorney record new/amended document with County

Cost: I'll try and look that up for you (need to dig through the records).

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You asked for experiences – we didn’t repeal all of our Bylaws, but tweaked them a few years ago. A draft copy was sent to everyone and they were given a deadline in which they could send comments. The Board would have reviewed suggestions with the Association attorney to see what made sense then prepared another draft, incorporating some and then explaining why others were rejected. In our case, we didn’t receive any comments, so the final draft was approved by the board and sent to homeowners for their review, along with the date and time of a meeting where a vote would be taken. If you couldn’t come to the meeting, you had to sign and return a form indicating whether you approved the changes or not.

At our meeting, we also discussed proposed updates to the CCRs, and more time was spent on that because people didn’t like the rental cap proposal (needless to say, that didn’t pass and now our CCRs are horribly outdated, but that’s another story).
As for the Bylaws, we only need 10% of the homeowners to approve them – we had far more than that at the meeting, a motion was made, seconded and passed by a show of hands and that was that.

You said your Bylaws are full of ambiguities, errors and such. I believe the Bylaws dictate how the Association is to be run, covering things like voting rights for homeowners, terms of board members, etc. To make sure you do this right, have your association attorney take a look to see what’s going on. You can give the attorney a list of areas that are most problematic, and perhaps pass along some ideas of what you’d like to have in it. From there, he or she can come up with some proposals – you may not need to toss the entire thing (maybe the real problem is everyone’s misinterpreting what’s written), but change the language in some areas, drop others and add a few more.

Since the Board already has a lot to do, you might want to charter a committee to look at the bylaws and come up with some ideas to tighten them up. They can then send their recommendations to the board and attorney.

Send a draft to the homeowners and get their comments, explaining why certain things should be changed. Review the comments with the Attorney to see what makes sense, adapt those suggestions to a new draft, send it out for review and THEN call your meeting to take a vote.

You might also want to take a close look at how proxies are to be used for this. When we tried to update our CCRs, we thought we could do it with a simple vote, as with the Bylaws, but later found the current batch contain language requiring ballots or letters used to amend the CCRs had to be notarized. That’s another reason our efforts failed – people sent it in without getting it notarized and we didn’t get the percentage needed anyway (75%).

(Say, that’s one issue your updated Bylaws might address - do you keep proxies or add language that would allow for electronic voting?) Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
EdwardC1 (Florida)
Posts: 90
Posted:
Thank you for all your reports of your experiences. They give me hope.

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