drug sniffing dogs?

Started by BonnieG1 • 44 replies • 2043 views

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BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

As I mentioned before, we have a convicted felon living in our building who we suspect is selling illegal drugs.
Drug enforcement unit of our local police department has told me the activity (multiple visitors) is an indication of drug dealing.

The young man we thought was just using drugs is gone and the owner is in the process of selling the unit.

We will be listing amendments to our Mater Deed and Bylaws (CC&Rs) for our members to vote on.
I am thinking of adding a section that may read something like this.

For the safety and security of all residents the Board may have a drug sniffing dog walk through the building at times.

Yes, we will run this by our lawyer as we will with all of our proposed amendments. I just would like to get opinions from other people in other states.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

So your not really into reading and following the Constitution of the United States of America? Mmmm... You may want to read one of those amendments instead... Can anyone guess which one?

Former HOA President

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 163

Posted:

Bonnie

Until today, I thought I had heard everything. UNBELIEVABLE!

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/28/2015 1:27 PM
So your not really into reading and following the Constitution of the United States of America? Mmmm... You may want to read one of those amendments instead... Can anyone guess which one?

You mean the part about "unreasonable searches and seizures" It wouldn't hurt us all (especially our national representatives) to continue to study the constitution.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 03/28/2015 1:31 PM
Bonnie

Until today, I thought I had heard everything. UNBELIEVABLE!

If I remember correctly, I think one of our owners mentioned this to me.
I have not presented it to the Board.

In fact the suspected drug dealers neighbor has threatened to get a gun to "protect" herself. Even one of our Board members thought about getting a gun to "protect herself". The Board member immediately realized having a gun was not a good idea. However the other lady has made the statement that someone should shoot this man.

Actually, I am a wee bit more concerned with the lady who made the statement someone should shoot him that I am with the suspected drug dealer.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BonnieG1 on 03/28/2015 1:22 PM

We will be listing amendments to our Mater Deed and Bylaws (CC&Rs) for our members to vote on.
I am thinking of adding a section that may read something like this.

For the safety and security of all residents the Board may have a drug sniffing dog walk through the building at times.

The provisions of the constitution pertaining to unreasonable search apply only to government agencies.

There is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about this. You have a condo, not a government agency. In truth, you do not even need to amend your documents as the board or any owner can already invite anyone with a drug-sniffing dog to come in and snoop in the common areas.

Police officers commonly use drug-sniffing dogs where they suspect drugs but have no other probable cause to arrest or search. If the dog indicates that drugs are present the police may seek a warrant to search based on the probable cause of the dog's response to the smell of drugs.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

With all respect, Bonnie, is the idea that writing this in your master deed (IMO, it would never belong in bylaws) will be a deterrent to drug use or dealing in your building? This would benefit your elderly residents. I do not think that such a sentence even belongs in a master deed (CC&Rs).

You've stated that many of your residents are elderly. Have those who like this idea considered the gossip, rumors and fear seeing such an animal stalking your hallways would cause? Won't others feel deeply offended by this intrusion into their common areas?? Does that downside outweigh the remotely possible deterrent effect?

I remember your posts fairly well, but don't recall that you have evidence the person was a convicted felon. What was his crime?

Have you checked to see how much it might cost to rent a handler and a properly trained dog? Will you build this expense into your annual dues, in other words, "Six visits by the drug sniffing dog, $1,200"? (I'm not sure what the line item would say.)

In thinking about it, even if it IS legal, IMO, it would not serve your community in any positive or useful way. And that's the Board's job.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Kelly,

When this person attacked a pizza delivery man, the police who came pulled up his license and told me he was a convicted felon. I have not done further research to find out exactly what is crime was. But the police that day said it was probably drug dealing.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Sorry, Bonnie, I should not have brought up your resident who have lots of visitors. You seems to know so much about him that i"m very surprised that you haven't checked on the nature of his felony. Perhaps that was noted on his (drivers?) license.

It understandably distracted you from my points about whether or not drug-sniffing dogs would benefit your HOA. Even if legal (Larry's & my posts crossed), don't the negatives outweigh the possible positive.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Sorry, Bonnie, I should not have brought up your resident who has lots of visitors. You seem to know so much about him that i'm very surprised that you haven't checked on the nature of his felony. That he's a felon, you said, was noted on his (drivers?) license.

It understandably distracted you from my points about whether or not drug-sniffing dogs would benefit your HOA. Even if legal (Larry's & my posts crossed), don't the negatives outweigh the possible positives?

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

J'accuse ! J'accuse !

Sieg Heil ! Sieg Heil !

This must actually be a joke.

The Board of Directors of a not for profit corporation hiring a trained drug sniffing dog in order to 'investigate' their own corporate members !?!

IMO: We would be better served with actual 'Death Squads' to weed out the idiots.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

from: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/idiot

"idiot
/id·i·ot/ (id´e-it) obsolete, offensive name for a person with profound mental retardation."

e.g. Bonnie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Knock it off, JohnB. If Bonnie's posts bother you so much, don't read them. Easy peasy.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Yes, Kerry it's about time people speak up about his uncalled for at time cruel comments!

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

John has admitted that he "tries to stir the pot". I think he gets a strange pleasure from his posts.
I ask thinks I honestly think about, but want others opinions before I make a big mistake.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

food for thought:

can a statement of fact, backed by written verification, be an act of cruelty ?

or is your (y'all) 'playing along' the real cruelty ?

why not repeat what I said in a more polite, politically correct, softer fashion ?

what would y'all do or think if one of YOUR directors proposed the dogs ?

i KNOW y'all are thinking the EXACT same thing that I coarsely stated !

however,

Bonnie,

I am truly sorry from the bottom of my soul if my statement offended you.
I promise to never criticize your suggestions in the future.
Yours is the sole voice of reason in an otherwise chaotic world, and we would all be better should we simply adhere to your pristine logic.

Sincerely yours,
John S. Bernabeu

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/28/2015 2:41 PM
Sorry, Bonnie, I should not have brought up your resident who has lots of visitors. You seem to know so much about him that i'm very surprised that you haven't checked on the nature of his felony. That he's a felon, you said, was noted on his (drivers?) license.

It understandably distracted you from my points about whether or not drug-sniffing dogs would benefit your HOA. Even if legal (Larry's & my posts crossed), don't the negatives outweigh the possible positives?

You have given me something to think about.

The negatives may outweigh the positives.

More than one of our members have mentioned making a rule that everyone has to go to the door to let visitors into the building and escort them to the door when they leave especially if it is after 10:00 P.M.
I asked each person that suggested this how we would enforce this rule. One thought we could just make the rule for the man who has been giving us problems. I told them we can not make a rule for just one person, if we make a rule it has to apply to everyone.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

I ask thinks I honestly think about, ...

Ah, another gem from the voice of reason.

I have recorded this pearl of wisdom in my notebook for safekeeping.

I will treasure this gem forever.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

One thought we could just make the rule for the man who has been giving us problems.

Are sure the inmates of your asylum are not actually contagious?

They appear to rival fruitcakes.

You have my condolences for having to deal with such people.

ps.

as I fight to NOT blend in and/or merge with my (senile) senior neighbors I find myself becoming more and more abrasive in self defense

it can actually be a struggle to help some people even after THEY request help

be careful, Bonnie
be very careful

YOU can still think. Upon reconsideration, perhaps you are merely repeating the idiotic idea of drug sniffing dogs.

John B.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 03/28/2015 4:12 PM

One thought we could just make the rule for the man who has been giving us problems.

I was once told that everyone in this world is a little crazy except me and thee and thee is a little bit so.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/28/2015 2:14 PM
(I'm not sure what the line item would say.)

How about "Dog Doo Process"?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Ah, NpS--hilarious!

Bonnies, if you'd let us know that you think some of your um, owners' idea are a little goofy, it would help us all I'm sure. I DO believe you're trying really hard to be a good HOA president.

But, I'm begging here, don't, IMO, suggest anything to your board owners or to us that would single out ONE resident. I'm certain some of this is difficult to explain to some of our elderly Owners, but....

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Bonnie when you add this, I would also add a prohibition against sprinkling cyan pepper or any other substance that could possibly destroy however temporarily a dog's ability to smell, on or around doorjambs. This would include any floor cleaner with ammonium in it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am sorry people but the HOA hiring drug sniffing dogs is way above it's pay grade. That is the police job. Even if you found "drugs" with the dog. It is NOT necessarily legal to arrest the person and to prosecute. You may want to consult something called the law on this one... Just saying...

You have the right to privacy and not be subject to illegal searches. I have drugs in my own house that would send a dog into a narcotic fit. They are not illegal but prescribed pills never took. If your of the older generation you most likely have some of these as well. Actually, some of the biggest drug dealers you find are amongst the elderly. They supplement their income by selling off their prescription drugs. Seems the sale of many of the pain pills that hit the black market come from Grandma' or Granddad's medicine cabinet.

The idea of drug sniffing dogs just randomly going down my street isn't the United States I signed up to live in... (BTW... My neighborhood does have 2 drug sniffing dogs living in it with a police officer. They are securely caged up where they should be off duty).

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BonnieG1 on 03/28/2015 1:22 PM
We will be listing amendments to our Mater Deed and Bylaws (CC&Rs) for our members to vote on.

What do you think this will accomplish Bonnie?

Do you think this will dissuade drug dealers from moving into or living in your complex?

Do you think that people will feel safer because this clause has been added?

Do you really think that if the person is already willing to break laws that could get him jail time, he will be worried about infringing on your new rule?

Anyway, if you want to go to the expense of walking any dog in a common area hallway, just do it - Doesn't matter if it's a drug sniffing dog or not. No constitutional violation because YOU ARE NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY. So I don't understand what benefit you expect to get out of making this change.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/28/2015 8:54 PM
Ah, NpS--hilarious!

Bonnies, if you'd let us know that you think some of your um, owners' idea are a little goofy, it would help us all I'm sure. I DO believe you're trying really hard to be a good HOA president.

But, I'm begging here, don't, IMO, suggest anything to your board owners or to us that would single out ONE resident. I'm certain some of this is difficult to explain to some of our elderly Owners, but....

Yes, I think some of my owner's ideas are a little goofy. Especially singling out one resident. But I will have to admit the drug sniffing dog didn't sound too goofy to me at first, but after reading some of this post I see a big problem with a drug sniffing dog. Especially with us older people and all the meds we are on. I probably couldn't pass a drug test unless I had a note from my doctor.

Since I posted this I will not mention it any of our members. If I did, some of them would probably push to have the drug sniffing dog. I can't remember if this was my idea or if someone mentioned it to me. I think someone might have mentioned it to me.

One of the owners once mentioned to me to charge more assessment for owners of empty units as a way to prompt the owner to sell. There have been more than one time I have had to tell an owner we could not implement the idea they gave to me.

A former president is so concerned we will have to install a fire sprinkler system (Our building is grandfathered in and not required to have a fire sprinkler system) if we update our documents that we can't seem to convince him any differently. This is the president that told us once that he could not find the percentages assigned to each unit in our documents and that it only took a majority of the people voting to amend our documents.

We have had to do a lot of reeducating of our members.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

I am presently making the sounds of a flock of Loons at midnight.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

What happens after the dog sniffs out the drugs? That's not probable cause for anything except having the cops dog walk around.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Take a look at the crime-free programs here

http://www.crime-free-association.org/

"The Crime Free Programs are innovative, law enforcement based crime prevention solutions designed to help keep illegal activity off rental property."

and here:

http://www.crime-free-association.org/condominiums.htm

"The authority to enforce rules and evict tenants come from the Crime Free Lease Addendum, which is identical to the one used in the Crime Free Multi-Housing Program.

As with any of the Crime Free Programs, you should never attempt to teach or manage a Crime Free Program without completing a certified Train-the-Trainer workshop, conducted by a certified Crime Free Instructor. This is especially true with the Crime Free Condominium Program."

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

We have had to do a lot of reeducating of our members.

not the BOD's job

simply maintain the common elements

and

MYOB

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 03/29/2015 10:24 AM

We have had to do a lot of reeducating of our members.

not the BOD's job

simply maintain the common elements

and

MYOB

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 03/29/2015 9:46 AM
Take a look at the crime-free programs here

http://www.crime-free-association.org/

"The Crime Free Programs are innovative, law enforcement based crime prevention solutions designed to help keep illegal activity off rental property."

and here:

http://www.crime-free-association.org/condominiums.htm

"The authority to enforce rules and evict tenants come from the Crime Free Lease Addendum, which is identical to the one used in the Crime Free Multi-Housing Program.

As with any of the Crime Free Programs, you should never attempt to teach or manage a Crime Free Program without completing a certified Train-the-Trainer workshop, conducted by a certified Crime Free Instructor. This is especially true with the Crime Free Condominium Program."

Thanks for this information!! You understand (although a drug sniffing dog is not a good idea) that my concern is the safety of our members. Since this man did assault a pizza delivery man what would stop him from assaulting one of his neighbors. The police who came that day said we could have had a murder on our hands if the young pizza delivery man had fallen and hit his head hard.

I don't have time to read this articles right now, but I have saved them to read and study when I have more time.

Thanks again, Posts like yours is why I put up with posts like John's posts.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

I disagree completely.

It is the Boards job to help members understand the governing documents and applicable regulations that the Board must comply with. Typically, this education only occurs when someone asks for clarification. When asked, the Board should answer and provide an answer that the member understands.

Tim, Thank you! It is posts like this that keep me coming back for advise and help me put up with John's posts.

When a former President is making a statement to the members that is not accurate, I feel it is my responsibility to give the members the correct information. Since he use to be president and is a man, some members would process what he says as absolute fact.

I have had members asks for clarification which I have given them.

One member suggested "someone" go through our very old Board Minutes to see if there is anything in the minutes regarding how we divide the expense of parking lot upkeep with the Care Center. This was mentioned at our social coffee hour. I informed the members that any agreement just mentioned in the minutes is not binding.

We are going to have a lawyer check with the court to see what if any agreements have been filed.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

..... what would stop him from assaulting one of his neighbors.

perhaps a 'feel good' rule issued by the BOD

correct answer: nothing

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Typically, this education only occurs when someone asks for clarification. When asked, the Board should answer and provide an answer that the member understands.

correct - when / if asked for clarification

not:

a generic responsibility of the BOD

ps. neither is law enforcement

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Bonnie,

I understand your motivation behind the suggestion but I don't believe the drug sniffing dogs are the answer. You seem like a very conscientious President and just concerned about the well-being of the residents in your HOA.

Since the problem resident is gone and when the owner sells his unit, perhaps the problem will go away. Or do you anticipate similar issues in the future.

Maybe just keep reminding your residents about keeping safe and watching out for each other and reporting unusual activities to the police. My mother lived in a close knit senior community for awhile and believe me there were plenty of folks on the look-out.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BanksS on 03/29/2015 3:16 PM
Bonnie,

I understand your motivation behind the suggestion but I don't believe the drug sniffing dogs are the answer. You seem like a very conscientious President and just concerned about the well-being of the residents in your HOA.

Since the problem resident is gone and when the owner sells his unit, perhaps the problem will go away. Or do you anticipate similar issues in the future.

Maybe just keep reminding your residents about keeping safe and watching out for each other and reporting unusual activities to the police. My mother lived in a close knit senior community for awhile and believe me there were plenty of folks on the look-out.

Just to clarify we had one young man who was occupying a unit. we just suspected him of using drugs. We never suspected him of selling drugs and he never assaulted anyone on site. This young man is the one who is gone and his father is in the process of selling the unit.

We have an Owner who still lives on site. This owner is the one we suspect of dealing drugs and who assaulted a pizza delivery man. At this point we have no legal basis for doing anything about the owner we suspect of selling drugs. At one point a note was put on our bulleting board advertising drugs of all varieties for sale in his unit. He did not put it on the bulletin board. One of his many "friends" put it there.

I do believe the drug unit of our police department is investigating him, but of course they could not tell us about any investigation. His ex still visits him at times and I would kind of like to warn her of the possibility of him being arrested when she is with him causing her to get in trouble also. But I know should not do that.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Yes, JohnB can be rude, but I must agree with his MYOB! re: the suspected drug dealers' ex and warning her when she visits about his possible arrest. This has NOTHING to do with your HOA and would not benefit your community at all. Stick to what matters to your Association.

Banks' suggestion a makes sense: "Maybe just keep reminding your residents about keeping safe and watching out for each other and reporting unusual activities to the police."

Our HOA too has entrances to our two lobbies from our urban sidewalks that are used by all types of people. Ever so often we remind residents to not let strangers follow them into the lobby entrances. We do NOT regularly have a security officer stationed in the lobbies.

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BonnieG1 on 03/29/2015 3:29 PM

Oh I misunderstood that the problem resident still lives there. Hopefully the police will be able to find enough on him and get him out of your building.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/29/2015 3:46 PM
Yes, JohnB can be rude, but I must agree with his MYOB! re: the suspected drug dealers' ex and warning her when she visits about his possible arrest. This has NOTHING to do with your HOA and would not benefit your community at all. Stick to what matters to your Association.

Banks' suggestion a makes sense: "Maybe just keep reminding your residents about keeping safe and watching out for each other and reporting unusual activities to the police."

Our HOA too has entrances to our two lobbies from our urban sidewalks that are used by all types of people. Ever so often we remind residents to not let strangers follow them into the lobby entrances. We do NOT regularly have a security officer stationed in the lobbies.

I agree with you and John 100% on this. I simply said I would like to be able to warn her. She volunteers for the same organization I volunteer for. We all had to have background checks. If she got caught up in his arrests she would no longer be able to volunteer for this organization. Although we don't get a check with a check stub we do get a stipend of $2.65 and hour. I just would hate for her to loose that. But I agree with you and John an this one that I need to Mind My Own Business. His ex has nothing to do with my business.

I never had any intentions of trying to warn her at all.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BonnieG1 on 03/29/2015 11:27 AM
Thanks for this information!! You understand (although a drug sniffing dog is not a good idea) that my concern is the safety of our members. Since this man did assault a pizza delivery man what would stop him from assaulting one of his neighbors. The police who came that day said we could have had a murder on our hands if the young pizza delivery man had fallen and hit his head hard.

I don't have time to read this articles right now, but I have saved them to read and study when I have more time.

Thanks again, Posts like yours is why I put up with posts like John's posts.

Bonnie, I know it is normal to want to do something but often the hard part is stepping back and acknowledging something is out of your hands. Yes the guy might be selling drugs but it is just as likely he is abusing them, maybe even his own prescription, maybe he is having an adverse reaction to his meds or maybe he has a psychological problem that can cause him to lash out out people.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

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