Does your Condo ALLOW grills

Welcome to HOATalk, Ginny. I can't help you because our FM doesn't allow propane grills in our urban area condos any more.

But others might help. Are you in detached homes? Or condos or townhouses? Do you mean charcoal grills? Or gas grills?

Ginny

I would think you best bet would have been from the local fire inspector who normally has safety standards for the use of grills.

Here you need to operate any grill a minimum distance from all combustible material meaning wood, vinyl siding, or other building material.

Here that would require a distance of I believe 10'.

Not sure why the fire marshal wasn't able to supply you with local codes and guidelines.

Each style grill comes with its own challenges.

A 20 lb propane tank can become quite problem when used improperly.

You policy would be affected by the size of your deck or area in which an owners might use them.

Charcoal is dirty, messy.

Small potable grills with disposable gas tanks create a waste problem.

You also have the option of electric grills

I would request guidelines used from the fire marshal and if they can't provide you with any I would suggest a call to your insurance carrier for ideas.

Local codes usually exist to set standards.

Well, let's see.... we are three stories tall.

Our insurance agent basically said... we would rather you not.... but if you do.... be sure and have rules.

Fire Marshall... you can... need rules....

Thanks guys....

https://archive.org/stream/gov.law.icc.ifc.2012/icc.ifc.2012_djvu.txt

2012 International Fire Code

308.1.4 Open-flame cooking devices. Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.
Exceptions:
1 . One- and two- family dwellings.
2. Where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an automatic sprinkler system.

That is Why.

That is it.... the local fire ordinance uses the 2012 International Fire Code.

Effective Date: Source Document: Topic:
January 1, 2003
19NYCRR 1225 - Fire Code of New York State (FCNYS) Prohibition of barbeque grills on combustible balconies and decks
This document provides that the following FCNYS sections are applicable. FCNYS section 102.2 provides that “the provisions of this code shall apply” to existing conditions and the use of barbeque grills is a “condition or use.”
FCNYS section F307.5, open-flame cooking devices, prohibits charcoal burners (barbeque grills) and other open- flame cooking devices on combustible balconies and decks or within 10 feet of combustible construction, except for one- and two-family dwellings (and except where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an approved automatic sprinkler system).
Furthermore, FCNYS section F307.5.1, liquefied-petroleum-gas-fueled cooking devices, states that LP-gas burners having an LP-gas container with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds (1.14 kg) [nominal 1 pound LP-gas capacity] shall not be located on combustible balconies or within 10 feet of combustible construction, except for one-and two-family dwellings.
The FCNYS section 3801.1 references the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standard 58, entitled “Standard for the Storage and Handling of Liquefied Petroleum Gases.” The overfill protection device required on LPG tanks is required through incorporation of this national standard. Although the device protects against the overfill of such tanks, it is not a protection against accidents.
Prior to January 1, 2003, the Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code referenced NFPA-58 and for over 10 years the standard also prohibited LPG tanks on balconies (except if there were outside stairs). LPG can be very dangerous. It is under high pressure and is heavier than air. For many years there have been distance requirements depending on the volume of the tank, proximity to buildings, and proximity to air intakes and openings in buildings. There is a greater property and life safety hazard in a multiple dwelling. LPG containers are prohibited from being inside a building or on the roof. They cannot be carried through a building because if there is an accidental release, the heavier than air vapors will sink. This can lead to an explosion if the vapors reach an open flame, such as water heater pilot.

I looked around for SC Laws on grills and I could not find anything. I do know several apartment/condo buildings where grills are prohibited from any balcony/patio above the first floor.

I did find the following:

In 2007, California updated its Fire Code and adopted portions of the 2006 International Fire Code, including sections 308.3.1 and 308.3.1.1. Those sections effectively ban the use of open-flame cooking devices on combustible decks. This ban became operative on January 1st, 2008. The code is not available online, but you will find a copy of the code in most libraries. The sections read as follows:

308.3.1 Open-flame cooking devices. Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exceptions:
1. One- and two-family dwellings.
2. Where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an automatic sprinkler system.

308.3.1.1 Liquefied-petroleum-gas-fueled cooking devices. LP-gas burners having an LP-gas container with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) LP-gas capacity] shall not be located on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exception: One- and two-family dwellings.

That's funny.

So a governmental employee allows what is legal, and he's an idiot? Where do you get off saying that?

Again I can't actually help, Ginny, but think you're wise to have rules..

Per the code that JohnC cited, our FM banned propane grills in our area of high rises last year. Most of our balconies far edges are only about 8 feet from our towers. They are non-conbustable but have no sprinklers. One of the reasons he used was protection of his fire fighters from exploding grills is a large fire did occur.

When gas grills were permitted, we had no rules.

An HOA is certainly entitled to enact more stringent regulations, as are the local authorities able to pass tougher laws. But you called the local Fire Marshal an idiot for not enforcing a law that doesn't exist.

No, I called him an idiot for telling you it was OK as long as you made 'rules'.

instead of:

"While they are code compliant, you must follow the manufacturer's instructions."

or

"While they are code compliant, I personally consider them a safety hazard."

p.s. the 'rules' would consist of following the grill manufacturer's instructions

said instructions are written as per NFPA which prohibit said grills from operation within 10' of flammable structure or under an overhang

Y'all KNOW it is a bad, bad to the bone, idea to permit said grills on balconies.

JohnC46,

Horry County, SC
enforces the following codes:

o International Building Code and Appendices A and H
o International Fire Code
o International Fuel Gas Code
o International Mechanical Code and Appendix A
o International Plumbing Code and Appendices E and F
o International Energy Conservation Code
o International Residential Code for One and Two Family Dwellings
o Standard Swimming Pool Code
o Standard Unsafe Building Abatement Code
National Electrical Code

Ginny let me say the difference between you and the Fire Inspector is that they have no liability while the HOA does.

Should you allow grills and lets say someone lacking common sense does what they shouldn't do you permission brings with it liability.

And if you insurance comapany finds you at fault in any way well you might have a fight on your hands having them make good on a claim.

Let me suggest you bypass the insurance agent as they do little more than fill out forms.

I would contact the insurnace carrier directly most have a claims rep. who might be able to provide you with specific concerns and possibily copies of rules and guidelines they use or other properties have used in your situation.

In my view far to vague to simply allow grills. How many propane tanks can be stored? What size? Where? and sprinkler systems and 10lb FE will be of little use should the worst occur.

People do really dumb things. Gas, propane, fire, lighter fluid, all can cause real serious problems.

I would ask the insurance carrier for guidance. Good luck.

In terms of the master insurance policy, I'm wondering what your insurance agent,loss control engineers, or risk management specialists, would think about the overall risk and their exposure if you follow through with this. Has anyone broached this with the insurance company that has the Master policy at this time?

Its likely during a routine inspection of your HOA by the insurance company, they would spot the grills and tell the HOA tell the residents to remove them immediately or they will drop the policy.

The next insurance company will say the same thing.

So beyond what this fire marshal said, which makes no sense, its a really dumb idea to have grills on a balcony. Of any type.

Our insurance let us know this. If you have a grill on an upper porch or too close to any burnable material for that matter. If that grill causes a fire.

THE OWNER OF THE GRILL IS LIABLE FOR ALL DAMAGE, including what would have been covered for common areas. The unlawful owner's insurance becomes the sole payer for all of it.

IOW, our insurance company didn't really care but certainly encouraged the removal of upper grills and the proper procedure for downstairs distance stated in the Federal fire laws.

I live in a townhouse complex in Southern California. As a number of people have noted, California, like other states, has fire codes that prohibit grills within ten feet of a structure. Most of my neighbors have grills on their roof top decks.

My HOA has many HOA ordinances and CCR's that are frequently violated. Don't be surprised if no one wants to enforce or even discuss this matter. We have other CCR's that are violated frequently and discussed often. If it has proved impossible to enforce frequently broken and discussed rules, then enforcing rules about roof top grills seems like a remote possibility. Unless , of course, there is a catastrophe. Then everyone will want to know why nothing was done.

I wouldn't worry about a grill too much, unless somebody is really interested in enforcement. It is no way to run an HOA, but it is how all rules are handled where I live .

Our fire marshal does not allow storage of combustible materials on the porches of multi family dwellings, so gas grills are out.

Electric grills are permitted with no restrictions.

Charcoal grills are permitted as long as they are not used within 10 feet of a dwelling or overhang, coals are disposed of properly and they cannot be stored on the porch. Residents are also responsible for any damage to the community caused by charcoal grills.

Are rules say that we can confiscate illegal grills but our attorney says that's trespassing and a good way to get shot, so we just send warning letters. Ultimately it's on the individual homeowner to follow the fire marshal's rules, although I have heard of them calling the association in to codes court if they are not enforcing the grill rules. Our attorney always prefers that we fine people rather than touch their property even if we tell them we can do it.

I can get you the exact wording of our policy but it is not in front of me right now.