garage spaces

Started by BonnieG1 • 36 replies • 1930 views

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BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

We are a three story 43 unit building with 31 garage spaces in the building.
Our Master Deed (comparable to CC&Rs) list each space and the unit the space was originally assigned.
When still under Declarant control there was an amendment that allowed reassigning of garage spaces.
Through the years spaces have been sold and now there are only about 11 units who still have the original garage space. Many sales were done on just a handshake with nothing recording at the court house or in the Association files. (Some months ago I spent hrs at the courthouse checking on this and another item).

When we vote to amend the documents, I would like to present an updated list of garage spaces and the units the space is assigned to for a vote. I would not have anyone who currently has a space either move or loose the space. I just want to do it this way to start fresh. Then I would emphasize the need to have all reassignments on file at the court house and with the Association. Of course we will ask our lawyer about this but I would like your opinion on this matter also.

For some more history, a few years ago, an owner who originally had a garage space but currently has no garage space threatened to tow the car of the person who currently has the space. I have heard by the grapevine that this fight might have started again.

I wish 43 garage spaces would have been built when the building was built but we have to live with what we have.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Bonnie, I would stay out of it. It is not an HOA matter.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 163

Posted:

I am not, but would like to play a lawyer occasionally, would not get in involved in this at all.Take Glen's advise.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 03/17/2015 4:42 PM
Bonnie, I would stay out of it. It is not an HOA matter.

If not a Condo Association matter whose matter is it. These garage spaces are in the condo building not in a parking lot or the street.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

BonnieG,

A couple of questions to help clarify. You wrote that about eleven (11) still have the Garage Space as originally assigned.

In the swapping around, of the other remaining Units, does any Unit now have a Garage Space, that did not have a Garage Space originally assigned? In other words were all the swaps between the 31 Units that had Garage Spaces

I ask because you wrote “an owner who originally had a garage space but currently has no garage space threatened to tow the car of the person who currently has the space”.

How are the garage spaces characterized? Are they described as LIMITED Common, or in some other way?

Would you be willing to post the exact words from the Amendment that allowed the Garage Space swapping?

Thank you.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EllieD on 03/17/2015 5:53 PM
BonnieG,

A couple of questions to help clarify. You wrote that about eleven (11) still have the Garage Space as originally assigned.

In the swapping around, of the other remaining Units, does any Unit now have a Garage Space, that did not have a Garage Space originally assigned? In other words were all the swaps between the 31 Units that had Garage Spaces

I ask because you wrote “an owner who originally had a garage space but currently has no garage space threatened to tow the car of the person who currently has the space”.

How are the garage spaces characterized? Are they described as LIMITED Common, or in some other way?

Would you be willing to post the exact words from the Amendment that allowed the Garage Space swapping?

Thank you.

Yes, there are 12 units that originally had a garage space and now have none. My unit is on of these units. I am not doing this to get a garage space for my unit. I just would like to have this mess untangled in the easiest way possible. I am thinking (although I may be thinking incorrectly) that if we simply amend our documents to show the current garages with the current units that have the garage space it might be untangled.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BonnieG1 on 03/17/2015 5:42 PM

Posted By GlenL on 03/17/2015 4:42 PM
Bonnie, I would stay out of it. It is not an HOA matter.

If not a Condo Association matter whose matter is it. These garage spaces are in the condo building not in a parking lot or the street.

Bonnie it is a private matter between the seller and the buyer. If they are too stupid or cheap to properly record the transaction then as John would say Caveat Emptor. Contrary to some's beliefs it is not the Board's business to regulate and arbitrate every picayune detail but to enforce the CC&R's. What's next will you have the Board check every homeowner's taxes to make sure they took the proper deductions and didn't cut any corners or file false deductions. Then the Board could take over making sure every homeowner paid their bills on time or maybe....

See what I mean, stick to the four corners of the CC&R's and let the homeowners deal with everything else.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

Bonnie,

Based on what you wrote, I agree that it needs to be straightened out. And I would think that the Garage Assignment would be included in your Documents, as I am guessing that the assignment was originally included, prior to the Amendment allowing the swapping, selling.

Since some Units have Garage Spaces and others do not, do all of the Condo Units pay the exact same monthly maintenance fees, or do those with garage spaces pay more?

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EllieD on 03/17/2015 7:03 PM
Bonnie,

Based on what you wrote, I agree that it needs to be straightened out. And I would think that the Garage Assignment would be included in your Documents, as I am guessing that the assignment was originally included, prior to the Amendment allowing the swapping, selling.

Since some Units have Garage Spaces and others do not, do all of the Condo Units pay the exact same monthly maintenance fees, or do those with garage spaces pay more?

The ones with garage spaces do not pay more that a unit of the same size without a garage space. The garage space is a limited common area.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our underground garage spaces are limited common areas. But they are deeded to specific units. My spaces belong to to my unit. I can rent them out or sell them.

I see the point of many--leave it alone! On the other hand, it does seem it needs to be straightened out. with Ellie, may we see the amendment? I recall asking in the past: WHO may reassign spaces? What else does it say?

I also wonder why Owners should vote on this re: rewriting your CC&Rs?

I think you need your HOA counsel's advice very soon!!

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2015 8:22 PM

Our underground garage spaces are limited common areas. But they are deeded to specific units.

This sounds contradictory. Common elements, limited or otherwise, normally have no separate deed as the property is owned by all unit owners in common. Since your garage spaces are deeded, they are not common elements although, like your condo units themselves, they are surrounded by common elements.

In Bonnie's situation the parking spaces are beginning to sound like common elements over which the association may exercise some control subject to the provisions of the Master Deed. Until someone can locate recorded deeds for those parking spaces this is an association problem.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2015 8:22 PM
Our underground garage spaces are limited common areas. But they are deeded to specific units. My spaces belong to to my unit. I can rent them out or sell them.

I see the point of many--leave it alone! On the other hand, it does seem it needs to be straightened out. with Ellie, may we see the amendment? I recall asking in the past: WHO may reassign spaces? What else does it say?

I also wonder why Owners should vote on this re: rewriting your CC&Rs?

I think you need your HOA counsel's advice very soon!!

Our lawyer advised us to do many amendments to dour documents at one time instead of voting to abide by the newer NE condominium laws.

I was thinking we may be able to handle the parking situation with an amendment. We definitely would get counsel's advise on all amendments we propose including the garage space problem. Our lawyer even said he would come to the member meeting to field questions.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 03/17/2015 11:15 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/17/2015 8:22 PM

Our underground garage spaces are limited common areas. But they are deeded to specific units.

The fact that limited common spaces normally have no separate deed presents another problem as some of our owners have actually gotten a separate deed to their garage space. I did check this when I was at the court house.
These owners were concerned that the space not be taken away from them.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Our lawyer advised us to do many amendments to dour documents at one time instead of voting to abide by the newer NE condominium laws.

Either:

Jabberwocky

or

An (in the medical definition) idiot attorney.

John S. Bernabeu

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

The deed to my condo unit states that my parking spaces are mine. The parking space #s are on the deed. They are "exclusive usecommon areas" (the language here) because I may (and do) walk across others to get to my elevator lobby corridor and to get to my storage unit area.

Our HOA maintains these spaces, e.g., stripes them, paints the yellow bumpers and regularly cleans the floors. in a edition the HOA makes rules a bout them, we may not store anything other than an auto and a personal shopping cart in each. We may not clean our cars; we may not lab fund leaks on the ground.

My storage locker also is an exclusive use common area. Its number is on my deed. The HOA has many rules about it, e.g., what may not be stored in it. I'm responsible for it, e.g., must provide a lock, except for the wooden slats that enclose it and the wooden slat door & hinges.

What I'm asking, Bonnie, is why the parking spaces will be on a ballot? What in the world would the wording say? Why do the garages have anything to do with the new NE legislation.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Kerry,

you repeated what I said soooooooooooo politely

soon, you too, will be bored with Bonnie

JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562

Posted:

Bonnie:
No one has to amend governing documents because of changed state laws. The laws automatically supersede governing documents. You lawyer is just trying to make money.
Jeanne

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Bonnie

You say the parking spots were originally "assigned" to a specific unit. Were they "assigned" or "deeded" to the unit? If assigned (as in not deeded) then I say the unit owner could not give them away nor sell them as they never owned them.

Take the following scenario. They were not deeded. Original owner "sold" his spot to another. Original owner long gone. The BOD gets into it and says the spaces were not ones to sell. All deals are off. Well I thought I owned the space and now I am mad. I am breaking out my legal hired gun. Guess who we are going after first?

If the BOD does anything, there will be some unhappy campers. Keep the BOD out of it. Let the "owners" duke it out.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

JohnC,

you repeated what I said soooooooooooo politely

soon, you too, will be bored with Bonnie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

That's what I'm trying to get at, JohnC. WHO owns the parking spaces? If the HOA actually owns some or all, then this is an HOA matter.

That is why I asked Bonnie if the amendment she refers to states WHO "assigns" the spaces? I think I've asked her this in the past, and I don't remember her replying.

Most of our motorcycle parking spaces are owned by our HOA. When a resident wants a space, our PM, based on a Board resolution, "assigns" one to the resident. That resident also fills out a form agreeing to certain conditions, etc.

(The developer sold a few spaces to new owners when the building opened. These motorcycle space numbers are on these owners' deeds and these owners may rent, sell, or exchange these spaces. I actually saw a notice on our bulletin boards once offering two motorcycle spaces for rent. Apparently that owner wasn't aware that 90% of the spaces are HOA-owned and are free to use.)

I still say Bonnie & her board need to pay an HOA attorney to straighten out this specific mess. IMO, it needs to be treated differently than the CC&Rs in general.

And Jeanne is correct, CC&Rs don't need to be revised when state laws change. But I do think Bonnie has mentioned yet other CC&R issues that are unrelated to the new law.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Y'all will NOT get a simple straight answer from Bonnie.

She, like myself, loves to stir the pot and keep it at a low simmer.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 03/18/2015 5:40 AM

Our lawyer advised us to do many amendments to dour documents at one time instead of voting to abide by the newer NE condominium laws.

Either:

Jabberwocky

or

An (in the medical definition) idiot attorney.

John S. Bernabeu

John,
I am certain our attorney understands Nebraska State law and that State law take precedent over our documents. I also understand state law takes precedent over our documents.
In Nebraska there are two sets of state laws. One is for Condominiums established before January 1, 1984. Since we were established in February of 1981 these are the laws that take precedent over our documents.
State Statue 76-826 (b) "The provisions of sections 76-801 to 76-824 do not apply the condominiums created after January 1, 1984
Any Association established prior to January 1, 1984 can vote either a blanket vote to abide by the newer state laws or vote to abide by specific newer state laws by amending the documents.
I was going to have a member vote to place ourselves under the newer state statues but our lawyer (who I am certain is not an idiot) advised us to not vote this way but rather to do many amendment to our documents.

Some of the items that differ from the old law include
Old law - quorum for a meeting 51% of the members present either in person or by proxy.
New law - quorum for a meeting 20% (or a higher percent determined by the Board) present either in person or by proxy.
Old Law - all Board Members must be members of the Association
New Law - A majority of Board members must be members of the Association.

Old Law - The Board has complete discretion regarding a budget and Association Fees
New Law - The Board must present the annual budget to the members for ratification.

Old Law - Notices of annual meeting to be mailed not more than 30 days prior or less than 21 days
New Law - Notices of annual meeting to be mailed not more than 50 days prior or less than 10 days prior to the meeting.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/18/2015 12:46 PM
That's what I'm trying to get at, JohnC. WHO owns the parking spaces? If the HOA actually owns some or all, then this is an HOA matter.

That is why I asked Bonnie if the amendment she refers to states WHO "assigns" the spaces? I think I've asked her this in the past, and I don't remember her replying.

Most of our motorcycle parking spaces are owned by our HOA. When a resident wants a space, our PM, based on a Board resolution, "assigns" one to the resident. That resident also fills out a form agreeing to certain conditions, etc.

(The developer sold a few spaces to new owners when the building opened. These motorcycle space numbers are on these owners' deeds and these owners may rent, sell, or exchange these spaces. I actually saw a notice on our bulletin boards once offering two motorcycle spaces for rent. Apparently that owner wasn't aware that 90% of the spaces are HOA-owned and are free to use.)

I still say Bonnie & her board need to pay an HOA attorney to straighten out this specific mess. IMO, it needs to be treated differently than the CC&Rs in general.

And Jeanne is correct, CC&Rs don't need to be revised when state laws change. But I do think Bonnie has mentioned yet other CC&R issues that are unrelated to the new law.

Article 4(E) of the Declaration is hereby amended to read as follows:

"All easements and other appurtenances benefiting an Apartment shall be inseparable from that Apartment and shall benefit and run in favor of its Owner and Occupants and their quests, provided, howwever, a Limited Common Area may be reallocated by a recorded assignment executed by the Apartment Owners between or among whose Apartments and the reallocation is made, or by a recorded amendment to the Declaration executed by those Apartment Owners. The reallocation of a Limited Common Area shall not be effective until the Apartment Owners executing the assignment or amendment to the Declaration shall have provided a copy thereof to the Association. Neither the Governing Documents nor the Association shall in nay case unreasonable restrict access to service and utilities or ingress and egress to and form the Owner's Apartment or any Limited Common Area appurtenant there to"

The problem is that many owners who have "reallocated" the garage spaces have not provided what this amendment requires.

Thank you for this question. Now I have another question. I am wondering how the two owners can amend the documents. I will have to ask the lawyer about this.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 03/18/2015 2:36 PM
Y'all will NOT get a simple straight answer from Bonnie.

She, like myself, loves to stir the pot and keep it at a low simmer.

I doo not intention try to "stir the Pot".

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 03/18/2015 11:42 AM
Bonnie

You say the parking spots were originally "assigned" to a specific unit. Were they "assigned" or "deeded" to the unit? If assigned (as in not deeded) then I say the unit owner could not give them away nor sell them as they never owned them.

Take the following scenario. They were not deeded. Original owner "sold" his spot to another. Original owner long gone. The BOD gets into it and says the spaces were not ones to sell. All deals are off. Well I thought I owned the space and now I am mad. I am breaking out my legal hired gun. Guess who we are going after first?

If the BOD does anything, there will be some unhappy campers. Keep the BOD out of it. Let the "owners" duke it out.

A few years ago an owner who doesn't currently broke out her legal hired gun. She threatened to have the car towed who was in the spot who she felt should belong to her unit. The gentleman who lives in the unit that now has the parking spot was sitting outside in front of his car to prevent it from being towed.
And I have heard by the grape vine this owner may be again after what she considers her garage spot.

Before this happed a new owner realized her unit originally had a garage spot and wss ready to go after what she thought was her spot. I would just like to get this settled so our owners don't have to put up with people going after their garage space.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanneK3 on 03/18/2015 10:50 AM
Bonnie:
No one has to amend governing documents because of changed state laws. The laws automatically supersede governing documents. You lawyer is just trying to make money.
Jeanne

Please read my response to John.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Also the original assignments of garage spaces are in our documents.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Well, Bonnie, your Declaration/CC&R citation does seem to say that condo owners do "own" parking spaces. but it also says, as you know, that they must record changes and give the HOA a copy, none of which has been done.

But, if someone has been constantly using space xx, then they might be able to claim it under a prescriptive easement or some such. This is why you need your HOA attorney, imo, to give you a written opinion on this whole mess.

JUST one issue is: should owners who've kept their original spaces and those who've exchanged them or whatever and did it correctly be forced to pay the attorney for disentangling this?? there are a lot of nuances to this!!

Some of your other changes do not appear to be hoped for changes to your CC&Rs, but, instead, to your yaws. Right, Bonnie?

Unlike John26, I don't think you purposely try to "stir the pot," but i do think you try too hard to figure out things for yourself when your Board cannot seem to help. We also learned recently that your MC gave you incorrect advice. You have to find someone truly knowledgeable and you will have to pay for that knowledge.

EllieD (Vermont)
Posts: 446

Posted:

Re amending, JeanneK, wrote “No one has to amend governing documents because of changed state laws”. I agree, but an Association may want to amend governing documents “because of changed state laws”.

However, it does not necessarily follow that all the words in a State Statute supersede and apply, without an Amendment to the Association Documents.

Although it may not be necessary to amend for some things to apply, by doing so, should make the Association Document easier to read and understand, without having to refer back to the State Statute.

However, should the Association want to take “advantage” of a new State Statute provision, depending, it may be necessary to amend, or to “restate to the new Statute”, or to “Declare” to the new Statute, and record in the Land Records, in order to have that section apply.

I am not an Attorney, nor do I work in the legal profession.

All of this is typically made clear within the State Statute. At least it is, in the latest Vermont Statute.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/18/2015 3:47 PM
Well, Bonnie, your Declaration/CC&R citation does seem to say that condo owners do "own" parking spaces. but it also says, as you know, that they must record changes and give the HOA a copy, none of which has been done.

But, if someone has been constantly using space xx, then they might be able to claim it under a prescriptive easement or some such. This is why you need your HOA attorney, imo, to give you a written opinion on this whole mess.

JUST one issue is: should owners who've kept their original spaces and those who've exchanged them or whatever and did it correctly be forced to pay the attorney for disentangling this?? there are a lot of nuances to this!!

Some of your other changes do not appear to be hoped for changes to your CC&Rs, but, instead, to your yaws. Right, Bonnie?

Unlike John26, I don't think you purposely try to "stir the pot," but i do think you try too hard to figure out things for yourself when your Board cannot seem to help. We also learned recently that your MC gave you incorrect advice. You have to find someone truly knowledgeable and you will have to pay for that knowledge.

I don't understand when you refer to "your yaws."

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Sorry, Bonnie, typos are (just) one of my shortcomings. I meant bylaws. And i wrote it because bylaws usually are the governing docs that state director qualifications, required notices for meetings, etc.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 03/18/2015 2:36 PM
Y'all will NOT get a simple straight answer from Bonnie.

She, like myself, loves to stir the pot and keep it at a low simmer.

Sturm und drang some people can't exist without it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Bonnie, you're going to do what you're going to do but I have to ask: Just how much time and Association funds are you willing to expend to sort out 30+ years of garage spot horse trading? And how do you decide who is lying to get a better spot?

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Glen,

If I recall correctly, Bonnie has been working on this issue for a few years now.
The issue appears to be important enough to her to devote that amount of time.

We has a similar issue with assigned parking. However, what we did was take the original plan, asked the two or three owners, who's initial assignment didn't make sense, where they normally parked and then modified it. Sent the plan to everyone as a draft saying that this will be the parking assignment and speak now or forever hold your peace. We had a few speak up and we addressed those concerns. Then we implemented the plan.

If I were Bonnie, I would go to the courthouse (since the issue appears to have been recorded), draw up a plan and send it to the membership saying this is how it's recorded at the courthouse. If you have problems with it, bring the issues forward along with your written documentation. Otherwise, this is how the plan will be.

However, Bonnie's way of trying to figure out all the transfers first can work to. It just may take longer.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

AGREE

..... may be reallocated by a recorded assignment executed by the Apartment Owners

no recording = no reallocation

I would:

Draw a 'site plan' of all the parking spots.

Go to the Register of Deeds Office and list the RECORDED owners on said plan.

Distribute 'labelled' plan to membership.

Give a termination date for any disputes to be resolved by any member making any claim.

Issue NUMBERED parking passes and have a towing plan in place.

or

fuh-ged-'bout-it and let the chips fall where they may

INO:

put up or shut up

D'OH

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 03/19/2015 6:42 AM
Glen,

If I recall correctly, Bonnie has been working on this issue for a few years now.
The issue appears to be important enough to her to devote that amount of time.

We has a similar issue with assigned parking. However, what we did was take the original plan, asked the two or three owners, who's initial assignment didn't make sense, where they normally parked and then modified it. Sent the plan to everyone as a draft saying that this will be the parking assignment and speak now or forever hold your peace. We had a few speak up and we addressed those concerns. Then we implemented the plan.

If I were Bonnie, I would go to the courthouse (since the issue appears to have been recorded), draw up a plan and send it to the membership saying this is how it's recorded at the courthouse. If you have problems with it, bring the issues forward along with your written documentation. Otherwise, this is how the plan will be.

However, Bonnie's way of trying to figure out all the transfers first can work to. It just may take longer.

Tim,
actually your way is kind of the way I was hoping we can handle this. Of course if we did it this way, we would definitely have something recorded at the court house.

We have currently have our lawyer working on something else, but I definitely want to ask his opinion on the garage space problem before our next annual meeting. This is something that at this time is not pressing.

When the issue first came up a few years ago, my thought was to just leave it alone, but I have changed my opinion over the years.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

I am sorry if I gave the impression my Board is not backing me. I would say about 98% of the decisions we make are made unanimously. I am glad I have Board members that feel free to disagree with me.

We just had a meeting tonight and all decisions were unanimous. Some issues did take more time to discuss before a decision was made, but we were all in agreement when the issue came to a vote.

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