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CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Our HOA hasn't had an annual meeting in years, and we won't have one again this year. Our quorum requirement is 25% and difficult to obtain. We usually get about 15% to attend every time, which I believe is reasonably good, and if we ever have an annual meeting again I'm going to recommend we reduce our quorum requirement to 15%.

We have a provision in our governing documents that allows for a quorum reduction to 10% at the second attempt to have an annual meeting if a quorum is not met the first time, but our current board won't use it citing the "expense" of noticing the meeting again is too great. As they did last year, they intend to simply appoint who they want to be on the board at the next board meeting, which is next Monday evening. Only two candidates have come forward anyway, but our governing documents allow for members to be nominated from the floor of the annual meeting, and we've had association members step up at the meetings before.

Ironically, our association has actually taken the steps to go door to door to have members sign off agreeing to email notification of meetings. The communications director has compiled this email list, said it is complete, and actually emailed the list to all members.

Our bylaws, not our Declaration, address notice of any membership meeting. I make this distinction for a reason, as you'll see. I know the industry norm is to snail mail membership meeting notices, but I believe this statute of Virginia code allows for email notification. The code was last amended in 2010, while our documents were drafted in 2006. The first paragraph seems to me to be clear that in Virginia membership meeting notices can be sent via email if the member agrees to this. Provisions would have to be made to snail mail notice to any member that wanted to continue receiving notices this way.

Please read this statute and share your opinions as to whether or not a simple email noticing any membership meeting is all that is needed.

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+55-515.3

Thanks
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
CfD:

I read the statute. How much more explicit could they state it to allow email notices? Yes, an email is all the board needs to send out for those members with email. For those without email they can hand-deliver notices or find some other equally effective traditional means of giving notice.

If Virginia statutes are like Arizona, the annual meeting is required not by HOA statutes but by nonprofit corporation statutes.

BTW, just how many thousand square miles does your association cover that makes compliance with state law (ie, mailing out notices of an anual meeting) so prohibitively expensive as to justify non-compliance?

CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Believe me Larry, I agree with you 100%
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Cf,

It would likely be pointless to make a motion at an annual meeting to amend the quorum. This is because notice requirements include the language of any proposed amendments. If everyone wasn't notified of a vote to amend the Bylaws, then you would need to wait to vote on an amendment until the membership has been notified of a proposed amendment.

Therefore, make the suggestion to the Board and have them include it with the notice for this meeting. That way, if you do get a quorum, you can actually vote on the proposed amendment.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Cf,

I recalled an earlier thread on what defined a meeting (as technically you had an annual meeting you simply failed to meet quorum and therefore were unable to conduct business).

At that time, I posed the question to the VA ombudsman. I posted her reply in that earlier thread but will re-post it here as well:

From Tim:
A simple question but I'm not sure the answer is simple.
If an Association calls a meeting with all requirements (notice, date, time, membership list available, etc.) being met to hold the meeting and a quorum is not present so no business was conducted. Did a meeting take place?

I know that the options are having a recess, adjourning to another date and time, or just adjourn.

What I'm trying to determine is, did the Association meet its obligation and hold a meeting even if a quorum was not present.

From Ombudsman:
Is this for an annual meeting or a board of directors meeting?

From Tim:
Thank you for the quick response. This would be for an Annual meeting.

From Ombudsman:
Thanks and no problem. I am not giving you a legal opinion here, because quorum requirements are not really part of the common interest community laws or regulations. They are typically part of your own governing documents or part of the Virginia Nonstock Corporation Act and I do not have jurisdiction over any of those. I did a little research on your question and based on my reading, it appears that the association probably has not met its obligation until it follows through on the alternatives available under your governing documents for a lack of quorum - adjourn and reconvene, etc. Annual meetings are too important to throw to the wayside because quorum could not be obtained in one attempt. The association should probably review its bylaws carefully to determine what its options are, follow through on those and only after diligently attempting to hold the annual meeting should it give up and wait until the next year's annual meeting. There does appear to be a reasonableness standard to all this as well - they make a reasonable effort to hold an annual meeting that would be valid based on the quorum having been met.

All this being said, keep in mind that I am speaking in the most general of terms here. I have not read your governing documents, I don't even know the name or size of your association. I am responding only to the information you provided to me, and attempting only to give you very general information that does not even come close to the level of a legal opinion. I would strongly suggest that the association consider working with an attorney in order to make certain that it is meeting the requirements of its governing documents in terms of holding an annual meeting, reconvening, or doing whatever is necessary to carry out its duties under the bylaws and under the law.

Hope this helps. Keep in mind there is no common interest community law that governs this - this really is internal to the association.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
CfD,

I think what really bothers me most about your situation is that the board of directors relies on state corporate statutes to shield themselves from any personal liability yet they feel it is too burdensome to actually comply with all the requirements imposed by those same statutes.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Cf

We are in the process of attempting to change our Quorum requirements. At present it is more then 50% (57 of 113 to us). We have never had more then 30% attend. We want to change it to 20%. Our lawyer informed us that over 50% must agree to the change in order for us to change it.

We have not exactly settled on how we are going to do such. We are discussing two methods with our lawyer:

1. Sending out a Proxy with wording that would do two things. Establish a Quorum at our Annual Meeting and allow the BOD to modify the Quorum requirements. Along the lines of a General Proxy allowing the BOD to cast their vote(s) as we desire.

2. Sending out a Proxy that would by returning the Proxy, be counted toward establishing a Quorum. Plus have the Quorum change detailed and Owners vote Yes or No on it. Along the lines of a Directed Proxy.

We also will be having our first BOD Election at the Annual Meeting, so we have a bit on our plate.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566
Posted:
"our lawyer informed us that over 50% must agree to the change in order for us to change it."

Was that not clearly stated in your CC&Rs?
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
potential answer:

Who knows? We are only volunteers doing our best! What do you mean: In the documents?!

A perfect example of Nonfeasance.

Unfortunately it may, too oft, be typical.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
ps.

nonfeasance is NOT covered by D & O insurance

check your policy for yourselves
AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566
Posted:
JohnC,
I was asking my question to you because wondered if you knew something about SC law that I'm not aware of concerning amending CC&Rs. I thought it was always spelled out clearly in the CC&Rs. I wondered if your CC&Rs were not specific? It was not intended to be a criticism, just curious.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AmandaR2 on 03/10/2015 9:06 AM
JohnC,
I was asking my question to you because wondered if you knew something about SC law that I'm not aware of concerning amending CC&Rs. I thought it was always spelled out clearly in the CC&Rs. I wondered if your CC&Rs were not specific? It was not intended to be a criticism, just curious.

Amanda

The Quorum requirement for us to conduct business is in our Bylaw, not in our Covenants. Basically it says we need a Quorum of over 50% to conduct business at our annual meeting such as hold an election, present/accept a budget, etc. In hard numbers, that is 57 of our 113 owners.

We originally assumed that we only needed over 50% of the over 50% as in 29 to make a change. We talked to our lawyer asking him to guide us in how to do such. He came back with the tricky/hiccup part which came in the form of SC Non Profit Code:

SECTION 33-31-722. Quorum requirements.

(a) Unless this chapter, the articles, or bylaws provide for a higher or lower quorum, ten percent of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter must be represented at a meeting of members to constitute a quorum on that matter.

(b) A bylaw amendment to change the quorum for a member action may be approved by the members and, if required, be approved as provided in Section 33-31-1030.

(c) An amendment to the articles of incorporation or bylaws that adds, changes, or deletes a greater quorum must be adopted under the quorum then in effect or proposed to be adopted, whichever is greater.

Our lawyer says that (c) means we have to have over 50% vote Yes to change it from over 50%. Again, to us that would be 57 Yes votes. We are going for a 20% Quorum.

I assume this is the hierarchy of documents/laws and a good example of why an association should discuss any changes with their lawyer rather then assume they know what they are doing, as we did. Our bad. This made our task a bit more difficult, but it will survive any challenges.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 163
Posted:
John

Can I ask what good is quorum of 20% when you need over 50% approval?
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Thanks to all for the contributions. Especially like our Ombudsman's point of view on this Tim, and agree that changing the quorum percentage should be included on the annual meeting agenda as a topic of discussion and possible action item prior to the meeting.

My feeling is if we can get the 10% quorum at another attempt at an annual meeting with the "quorum reduction" agenda item, we can make the necessary motion on it, take the vote, and then work to collect enough signatures throughout the neighborhood agreeing to it (51% of owners). My understanding is 30 days is considered a reasonable time frame to accomplish the collection of signatures on the issue before it should be scrapped and reintroduced at a future meeting, but if anyone has better guidance I'm all ears.

Unfortunately, I know already that suggesting any of this to our board is futile. Egos rule the day on our board, and the perception that they can do no wrong must continually and systematically be perpetuated to the masses at all costs. Its all gotten a little absurd.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/10/2015 11:07 AM
John

Can I ask what good is quorum of 20% when you need over 50% approval?

Richard

We are trying to change our Quorum requirement from the present over 50% to over 20%. We need over 50% to approve the change to over 20%. Some wanted to take it to 10%.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
CfD

In my last HOA we often to have 3 meetings to get a Quorum. Each reconvened meeting required a 30 day notice to all and and the required Quorum dropped by 50%. Like 200 to 100 to 50.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 163
Posted:
Forgive me if this was always addressed.

CfD, you mentioned you have a provision for a reduction to 10%. In all governing documents I have seen, the membership are the ones that would vote to adjourn to a later date with reduced quorum, not the Board, as its a membership meeting, not a Board meeting and really the only Board member doing anything should be the President as they would preside over all membership meetings.

You mention 15% shouldn't be a problem.

I live in Los Angeles County and we get billion dollar bonds passed with only a 7% turnout.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Well, in Georgia the quorum requirement is one third. And it is set by The Georgia Property Owners’ Association Act.

44-3-228.
Unless the instrument provides otherwise, a quorum shall be deemed present throughout any meeting of the members of the association if persons entitled to cast more than one-third of the votes are present at the beginning of the meeting. Unless the instrument specifies a larger majority, a quorum shall be deemed present throughout any meeting of the board of directors if persons entitled to cast one-half of the votes in that body are present at such meeting.

Walt
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WalterM3 on 03/10/2015 12:04 PM
Well, in Georgia the quorum requirement is one third. And it is set by The Georgia Property Owners’ Association Act.

44-3-228.
Unless the instrument provides otherwise, a quorum shall be deemed present throughout any meeting of the members of the association if persons entitled to cast more than one-third of the votes are present at the beginning of the meeting. Unless the instrument specifies a larger majority, a quorum shall be deemed present throughout any meeting of the board of directors if persons entitled to cast one-half of the votes in that body are present at such meeting.

Walt

Walt

I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

I believe your 44-3-228 sets an amount unless you docs say otherwise and then the docs would rule. Do you agree?

Not much different then SC Non Profit Articles which says:

(a) Unless this chapter, the articles, or bylaws provide for a higher or lower quorum, ten percent of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter must be represented at a meeting of members to constitute a quorum on that matter.

WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/10/2015 1:26 PM
Posted By WalterM3 on 03/10/2015 12:04 PM
Well, in Georgia the quorum requirement is one third. And it is set by The Georgia Property Owners’ Association Act.

44-3-228.
Unless the instrument provides otherwise, a quorum shall be deemed present throughout any meeting of the members of the association if persons entitled to cast more than one-third of the votes are present at the beginning of the meeting. Unless the instrument specifies a larger majority, a quorum shall be deemed present throughout any meeting of the board of directors if persons entitled to cast one-half of the votes in that body are present at such meeting.

Walt


Walt

I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

I believe your 44-3-228 sets an amount unless you docs say otherwise and then the docs would rule. Do you agree?

Not much different then SC Non Profit Articles which says:

(a) Unless this chapter, the articles, or bylaws provide for a higher or lower quorum, ten percent of the votes entitled to be cast on a matter must be represented at a meeting of members to constitute a quorum on that matter.


Seems to me that some lawyer got to impress the yokels (me) by copying the language of the statute into the By-Laws and then getting paid for it. But I take your point. "Unless the instrument provides otherwise..." are just weasel words I think.

Walt
AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566
Posted:
Thank you so much for clarifying that, JohnC. I guess the theory is, why bother to keep things, when we can so easily complicate.
AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566
Posted:
OOPS I meant "why bother to keep things SIMPLE, when we can so easily complicate"

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