Commercial Business in Residential Home

MaryB28 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1

Posted:

Our covenants clearly state that our neighborhood is for residential, NON-COMMERCIAL use only. We have a neighbor who is essentially running his electric service company out of his home. It's not just a home office. His 3 employees visit him once or twice a day to pick up job orders or drop off checks. A uniform truck delivers uniforms once weekly. He has an office worker who works at his home every day. he said she does housework as well as office work. (Aren't cleaning ladies allowed? He asks) The immediate surrounding neighbors want the HOA to put a stop to this. We have tried reasoning with the man. He is ready for a fight. He has been threatening and belligerent. We don't want to go to an attorney ... yet. Would like to settle this on our own. Where can I find a GOOD/EXCELLENT definition of what constitutes what a commercial business is??? We have many neighbors who telecommute. This is not the same thing. The rule-breaker thinks if his business goes, then all telecommuters have to go too. HELP!!!!!!!

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

In addition to your CC&Rs, there may be local ordinances. Here's one of our township's definitions:

NO-IMPACT HOME-BASED BUSINESS
A business or commercial activity administered or conducted as an accessory use which is clearly secondary to the use as a residential dwelling and which involves no customer, client or patient traffic (whether vehicular or pedestrian) pickup, delivery or removal functions to or from the premises, in excess of those normally associated with residential use. The business or commercial activity must comply with the standards in § 240-32U of this chapter.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Mary,

The typical reason for a no home business rule is to minimize the excess traffic.
Get documentation, photos, times, etc. of workers going in and out of the home, corporation documents, advertising, etc. Then utilize that as the issue.

Based on what you provided, it appears that this person may have done this in other locations he has lived at and knows how to "play the game" in giving answers that can delay the inevitable.

Here are some links that may be helpful:

commercial definition from Merriam-webster

Home Based Business Definition from USLegal.com

Handling Home Based Businesses article from the NJCooperator

VA § 55-513.2. Home-based businesses permitted; compliance with local ordinances. VA statute concerning home-based businesses

Home-Based Business and Government Regulation from the small business administration

Subject: Home based business A thread on this forum (please don't reactivate it, just use it as a resource)

Hope this helps,

Tim

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Mary

Seems you BOD may lack a spine. Commence fining.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryB28 on 02/13/2015 7:47 PM
Our covenants clearly state that our neighborhood is for residential, NON-COMMERCIAL use only. We have a neighbor who is essentially running his electric service company out of his home. It's not just a home office. His 3 employees visit him once or twice a day to pick up job orders or drop off checks. A uniform truck delivers uniforms once weekly. He has an office worker who works at his home every day. he said she does housework as well as office work. (Aren't cleaning ladies allowed? He asks) The immediate surrounding neighbors want the HOA to put a stop to this. We have tried reasoning with the man. He is ready for a fight. He has been threatening and belligerent. We don't want to go to an attorney ... yet. Would like to settle this on our own. Where can I find a GOOD/EXCELLENT definition of what constitutes what a commercial business is??? We have many neighbors who telecommute. This is not the same thing. The rule-breaker thinks if his business goes, then all telecommuters have to go too. HELP!!!!!!!

If ever there was a situation where you should pounce on a jerk with lawsuits, this is it. Not only does your jackass homeowner have notice that this is a residential neighborhood, so do all of his suppliers, employees, and customers. Your recorded covenants give them all notice. I would sue every last one of them and run that bully out of town. He wants a fight and he deserves one. Bankrupt him and ruin any chance he will ever have to do business elsewhere in the future.

If he is a licensed electrical contractor, he may have had to post a bond with the state. File a claim against that bond for starters. File a claim with the state for licensing a contractor to do business in violation of your covenants.

Fining this guy won't do squat. He has already learned that he can kick dog dirt into your faces and that you will do nothing about it. When there is a fly in your house you do not argue with the fly and you do not try to reason with the fly, you go for the flyswatter.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaryB28 on 02/13/2015 7:47 PM
Our covenants clearly state that our neighborhood is for residential, NON-COMMERCIAL use only. We have a neighbor who is essentially running his electric service company out of his home. It's not just a home office. His 3 employees visit him once or twice a day to pick up job orders or drop off checks. A uniform truck delivers uniforms once weekly. He has an office worker who works at his home every day. he said she does housework as well as office work. (Aren't cleaning ladies allowed? He asks) The immediate surrounding neighbors want the HOA to put a stop to this. We have tried reasoning with the man. He is ready for a fight. He has been threatening and belligerent. We don't want to go to an attorney ... yet. Would like to settle this on our own. Where can I find a GOOD/EXCELLENT definition of what constitutes what a commercial business is??? We have many neighbors who telecommute. This is not the same thing. The rule-breaker thinks if his business goes, then all telecommuters have to go too. HELP!!!!!!!

Exact wording found in your governing documents (CC&Rs) addressing this subject will be of utmost importance. Do your governing docs offer detail on the subject, describing what is or is not allowed? Also, in some cases the activities of a business being run can be addressed under nuisances in your governing documents.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/14/2015 7:15 AM
If he is a licensed electrical contractor, he may have had to post a bond with the state. File a claim against that bond for starters. File a claim with the state for licensing a contractor to do business in violation of your covenants.

Hi Larry
Are there any potential repercussions to the HOA for filing a claim with the state?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 02/14/2015 7:29 AM

Are there any potential repercussions to the HOA for filing a claim with the state?

The worst that usually happens is that the state either denies the claim or does not respond at all. In my state, that starts the clock ticking and gives you six months to file a lawsuit. The chances of the state paying a claim in a situation like this is slim and the main reason for doing so would be to bring some heat down on homeowner-contractor. Otherwise, I would not spend too much time pursuing this claim.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/14/2015 7:15 AM

If ever there was a situation where you should pounce on a jerk with lawsuits, this is it. Not only does your jackass homeowner have notice that this is a residential neighborhood, so do all of his suppliers, employees, and customers. Your recorded covenants give them all notice. I would sue every last one of them and run that bully out of town. He wants a fight and he deserves one. Bankrupt him and ruin any chance he will ever have to do business elsewhere in the future.

If he is a licensed electrical contractor, he may have had to post a bond with the state. File a claim against that bond for starters. File a claim with the state for licensing a contractor to do business in violation of your covenants.

The suppliers and his bond are undoubtedly untouchable by a HOA lawsuit over this.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/15/2015 8:14 PM

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/14/2015 7:15 AM

If ever there was a situation where you should pounce on a jerk with lawsuits, this is it. Not only does your jackass homeowner have notice that this is a residential neighborhood, so do all of his suppliers, employees, and customers. Your recorded covenants give them all notice. I would sue every last one of them and run that bully out of town. He wants a fight and he deserves one. Bankrupt him and ruin any chance he will ever have to do business elsewhere in the future.

If he is a licensed electrical contractor, he may have had to post a bond with the state. File a claim against that bond for starters. File a claim with the state for licensing a contractor to do business in violation of your covenants.

The suppliers and his bond are undoubtedly untouchable by a HOA lawsuit over this.

Maybe ... But I sure do like the "outside of the box" thought process Mark presented

.

Mary ... If he is ready for a fight then most likely nothing will be accomplished unless from a legal source such as unfortunately an attorney. While everyone would prefer to avoid that option sometimes that is what might be only unfortunate choice to ensure documents are followed. You most likely need to have an attorney send him a letter stating the violations at a minimum.

If his business license is registered to his home address that could be more proof of the violation. You first need to gather any and all evidence to prove your case beyond any reasonable doubt to greatest extent possible. Because he makes statements you noted above when BOD addresses then most likely any response needs to be from an attorney ... Otherwise he will continue yanking your chain.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Sorry Mark ... Meant to say that Larry presented not you.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JanetB2 on 02/16/2015 12:08 AM
You first need to gather any and all evidence to prove your case beyond any reasonable doubt to greatest extent possible. Because he makes statements you noted above when BOD addresses then most likely any response needs to be from an attorney ... Otherwise he will continue yanking your chain.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is standard fro criminal cases. Standard for civil cases is - by a preponderance of the evidence = more likely than not.

Have you thought about issuing fines? Do you have the authority?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

I believe if his business license is listing his home address that could be considered enough proof in some states. Regardless of being within a HOA, running a business where it's not considered business zoned is illegal.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 02/16/2015 7:30 AM
I believe if his business license is listing his home address that could be considered enough proof in some states. Regardless of being within a HOA, running a business where it's not considered business zoned is illegal.

Legality is rarely the true concern. Enforcement or rather lack of enforcement is usually the underlying issue.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 02/16/2015 7:30 AM
I believe if his business license is listing his home address that could be considered enough proof in some states. Regardless of being within a HOA, running a business where it's not considered business zoned is illegal.

Legality is rarely the true concern. Enforcement or rather lack of enforcement is usually the underlying issue.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 02/16/2015 7:30 AM
I believe if his business license is listing his home address that could be considered enough proof in some states. Regardless of being within a HOA, running a business where it's not considered business zoned is illegal.

I do not believe a business license listing a home address means anything. This is a very common practice.

The OP seemed to make a good case that there is a business being operated from the house. Thus it seems to me her BOD has no spine and is not willing to take the HO on. Until they do, nothing is going to change.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 02/16/2015 7:43 AM

Posted By AmandaR2 on 02/16/2015 7:30 AM
I believe if his business license is listing his home address that could be considered enough proof in some states. Regardless of being within a HOA, running a business where it's not considered business zoned is illegal.

I do not believe a business license listing a home address means anything. This is a very common practice.

The OP seemed to make a good case that there is a business being operated from the house. Thus it seems to me her BOD has no spine and is not willing to take the HO on. Until they do, nothing is going to change.

You and NPS probably know more than me on the subject than I do. I don't claim to know all the legalities.

I was basing my comment on something that happened to my own parents some time ago. My father owned and still owns a contracting business we did not live in a HOA. However we lived in a residential neighborhood which was not business zoned. When he first started his business my mother would take phone calls and act as his secretary. He left very early in the morning and our Banker neighbor did not like that fact, so they claimed he was running a business from home. My father sought the advice of a lawyer and he said he needed to have another address listed for his business address in a bus. zone. He said we could not list a residential address as a business. So my father then rented used a space in a relatives business to post a sign and phone number and listed his business there. He also had got a business line and hired an answering service to take messages for his small business at the time. No problems with this neighbor after that.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Business licensing is done at the state level. In PA, the only restriction is that the mailing address cannot be a PO Box. It must be a physical address. The state does not get involved in enforcement on zoning issues.

Zoning is local. If you look at my first post on this thread, you can see how my township defines a No-Impact Home Based Business. My township allows No-Impace Home Based Businsess in a residential zone - but prohibit anything more. I have no idea whether my township will enforce this prohibition even though it's on the books.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 02/16/2015 8:02 AM

My father owned and still owns a contracting business we did not live in a HOA. However we lived in a residential neighborhood which was not business zoned. When he first started his business my mother would take phone calls and act as his secretary. He left very early in the morning and our Banker neighbor did not like that fact, so they claimed he was running a business from home. My father sought the advice of a lawyer and he said he needed to have another address listed for his business address in a bus. zone. He said we could not list a residential address as a business. So my father then rented used a space in a relatives business to post a sign and phone number and listed his business there. He also had got a business line and hired an answering service to take messages for his small business at the time. No problems with this neighbor after that.

A person who was harassing us reported to the city zoning office that I was running a business from my home. That was true. My corporation listed my home address as its mailing address and principal office. I also had a business phone and business fax/data line in the house. My business involved consulting in the information technology sector. It had no signs or other advertising, received no deliveries other than the mail, had no customers calling, and shipped nothing. The zoning inspector determined that there was no violation.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/16/2015 8:38 AM

Posted By AmandaR2 on 02/16/2015 8:02 AM

My father owned and still owns a contracting business we did not live in a HOA. However we lived in a residential neighborhood which was not business zoned. When he first started his business my mother would take phone calls and act as his secretary. He left very early in the morning and our Banker neighbor did not like that fact, so they claimed he was running a business from home. My father sought the advice of a lawyer and he said he needed to have another address listed for his business address in a bus. zone. He said we could not list a residential address as a business. So my father then rented used a space in a relatives business to post a sign and phone number and listed his business there. He also had got a business line and hired an answering service to take messages for his small business at the time. No problems with this neighbor after that.

A person who was harassing us reported to the city zoning office that I was running a business from my home. That was true. My corporation listed my home address as its mailing address and principal office. I also had a business phone and business fax/data line in the house. My business involved consulting in the information technology sector. It had no signs or other advertising, received no deliveries other than the mail, had no customers calling, and shipped nothing. The zoning inspector determined that there was no violation.

Typical configuration. I once had two businesses with my home (HOA) address on the licenses.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/15/2015 8:14 PM

The suppliers and his bond are undoubtedly untouchable by a HOA lawsuit over this.

Why? They all had notice by virtue of the recorded covenants that a business could not operate from the offender's home and yet they all agreed to aid and abet the enterprise to the detriment of the neighboring owners. Not only could the association file suit to enforce the restrictions but any of the residents of the development could also bring suit with or without the blessings and cooperation of the association.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Larry,
Like your case, this neighbor was harassing my father. My father had no signs on his truck and it was parked in our driveway, but the banker who left for work much later didn't like hearing my father leave for work (the sound of his truck). My father did not receive deliveries at home, no customers calling either. This neighbor actually went around to the other surrounding neighbors with a petition against my father, not one other neighbor would sign it they loved my parents. One other neighbor actually started a petition against the harassing neighbor because they would let their large dog out loose at night leaving "surprises" on the other neighbors yards for them to find every morning. Eventually that bad neighbor moved. My father was and is not inconsiderate he simply was earning a living. As far as the steps my Father took, maybe he didn't have to go that far legally. I'm glad you also prevailed, doesn't sound like your were hurting anyone, some people just have nothing better to do than try and make others miserable. You find them everywhere.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/16/2015 8:48 AM

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/15/2015 8:14 PM

The suppliers and his bond are undoubtedly untouchable by a HOA lawsuit over this.

Why? They all had notice by virtue of the recorded covenants that a business could not operate from the offender's home and yet they all agreed to aid and abet the enterprise to the detriment of the neighboring owners. Not only could the association file suit to enforce the restrictions but any of the residents of the development could also bring suit with or without the blessings and cooperation of the association.

By your reasoning, anybody must go to the county and look at the recorded CC&R's for any property, anywhere for what ever reason they visit that property. Nope, a supplier must ensure they do not break the law, that is all. CC&R's only apply to those that are contractually obligated to follow them. This happens when you buy the property with a recorded covenant.

Construction bonds are only to be held for completion and damage, they are not a general bond accessible by the general public.

Sorry, but you give really bad advice.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/16/2015 9:42 AM

Posted By LarryB13 on 02/16/2015 8:48 AM

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/15/2015 8:14 PM

The suppliers and his bond are undoubtedly untouchable by a HOA lawsuit over this.

Why? They all had notice by virtue of the recorded covenants that a business could not operate from the offender's home and yet they all agreed to aid and abet the enterprise to the detriment of the neighboring owners. Not only could the association file suit to enforce the restrictions but any of the residents of the development could also bring suit with or without the blessings and cooperation of the association.

By your reasoning, anybody must go to the county and look at the recorded CC&R's for any property, anywhere for what ever reason they visit that property. Nope, a supplier must ensure they do not break the law, that is all. CC&R's only apply to those that are contractually obligated to follow them. This happens when you buy the property with a recorded covenant.

Construction bonds are only to be held for completion and damage, they are not a general bond accessible by the general public.

Sorry, but you give really bad advice.

One of the drawbacks to Forums like this, is that without commenters' full names attached to their comments, comments can veer readily into personal attacks. This 'ad hominem' - instead of 'ad rem' - POISONS THE WELL big time. I have seen several Forums fold (or get neutered) after personal attacks ultimately forced the hosts to shut down or handicap all 'live' interaction. Do personal attacks improve content ?

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Personally, I don't see this as causing an excessive amount of extra traffic. Three people coming 1 or 2 times a day, an office worker once a day plus A ONCE A WEEK delivery person does not amount to much more than a family with working parents and a couple of teen-age drivers. If the teens have jobs and cars there may be just as much traffic as your neighbor.

I say let the man make his living and leave it alone. He is probably pushing the envelope but not worth a battle or expense of hiring an attorney. My neighbors come and go all day long. I just don't see it as something to make an issue about.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BobD4 on 02/16/2015 1:28 PM

One of the drawbacks to Forums like this, is that without commenters' full names attached to their comments, comments can veer readily into personal attacks. This 'ad hominem' - instead of 'ad rem' - POISONS THE WELL big time. I have seen several Forums fold (or get neutered) after personal attacks ultimately forced the hosts to shut down or handicap all 'live' interaction. Do personal attacks improve content ?

The truth is that the suggestions regarding going after the suppliers and the bond are impossible

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/16/2015 6:50 PM

Posted By BobD4 on 02/16/2015 1:28 PM

One of the drawbacks to Forums like this, is that without commenters' full names attached to their comments, comments can veer readily into personal attacks. This 'ad hominem' - instead of 'ad rem' - POISONS THE WELL big time. I have seen several Forums fold (or get neutered) after personal attacks ultimately forced the hosts to shut down or handicap all 'live' interaction. Do personal attacks improve content ?

The truth is that the suggestions regarding going after the suppliers and the bond are impossible

Only those who sign and agree to any contract can have their feet held to any fire with regards to violations. I would agree with Mark that outside suppliers or any other individuals or entities could not be liable for any violations.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

the comment : "Sorry, but you give really bad advice. . . . the truth is . . . "

THE TRUTH is that personal attacks poison the well.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BobD4 on 02/18/2015 5:51 AM
the comment : "Sorry, but you give really bad advice. . . . the truth is . . . "

THE TRUTH is that personal attacks poison the well.

Keep beating that drum. Saying that somebody is giving bad advice is a personal attack? What if it's true? OCD anybody

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 02/18/2015 8:44 AM

Posted By BobD4 on 02/18/2015 5:51 AM
the comment : "Sorry, but you give really bad advice. . . . the truth is . . . "

THE TRUTH is that personal attacks poison the well.

Keep beating that drum. Saying that somebody is giving bad advice is a personal attack? What if it's true? OCD anybody

How about a compromise ... Instead of stating "You give really bad advise" instead state "I respectfully disagree with your statement".

Everybody happy now?

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

? Commercial Business as opposed to Non-Commercial Business ?

? Would a 'good will' type of business be allowed ?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to regulate BEHAVIOR.