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JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
I have lived in a 174 member HOA for almost 3 years. There are several issues that confront the upcoming election that are shocking from all aspects:

1. One of the candidates who was included on the distributed BOD ballot has withdrawn prior to the close of the election. 5 seats are available and there were 6 candidates
a. Is someone obliged to disclose the withdrawal of that name?

2. I received a phone message from the management company that my name was written in on a ballot. I was asked if I wanted to run for the board and if I did, the management company would print my name on a ballot that is going to be handed out at the annual meeting next week and I would have to be in attendance in order to be eligible.
a. Is the management company permitted to open the ballots which is obviously how they make this discovery?
b. Can "write in" names be printed on a second ballot to be handed out at the annual meeting?

The information that I have relayed was told to me by the administrator assigned to my HOA.

How soon do you think I should move out of this community?

Thanks so much.
JoanneD1
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Joanne,

AZ law requires that all HOA elections provide for mail-in and in-person voting.

If the person who withdrew did so before the ballots were mailed out, his name should not have appeared. I have no idea what the procedure should be when someone withdraws after ballots are mailed but before they are tallied. In this case, however, you would have had five candidates for five seats so each remaining candidate would have been a winner. In fact, the election could have been determined by acclamation; that is, no election at all as the number of candidates equals the number of seats.

The person who wrote your name in has thrown a monkey wrench into the election. The statutory requirement for mail-in and in-person voting implies that ballots distributed at the meeting should be the same as those mailed out. Therefore, I think it would be inappropriate to add your name to the printed ballot to be distributed at the meeting. If you wish to run you should solicit write-in votes.

As to the management company opening ballots: It is not illegal but it indicates a poor election oversight by your board. In my association, we require that the ballots be returned in an envelope we mail with the ballot; when the envelope is received we know it is a ballot and not payment. All sealed envelopes are held until the deadline and then counted by a committee. Ninety percent of our ballots are returned by mail and the counting is done prior to the annual meeting. Since people can cast ballots at the annual meeting, the results could theoretically change but never have.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
YESTERDAY
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Thanks so much for this reply. As it turns out, the candidate withdrew AFTER the ballots were mailed. I had no desire to be a candidate but I have a strong suspicion that there is another"write in "candidate. This is a community that has division problems. The system of voting is cumulative so if there is a campaign for the write in candidate and the name is printed on the ballot, that can skew the election. Why would a manager make such a statement about permitting a different ballot at the Annual Meeting? How can it be a fair election with two different ballots in play? Thanks.
Joanne
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoanneD1 on 02/07/2015 11:10 AM
I have lived in a 174 member HOA for almost 3 years. There are several issues that confront the upcoming election that are shocking from all aspects:

1. One of the candidates who was included on the distributed BOD ballot has withdrawn prior to the close of the election. 5 seats are available and there were 6 candidates
a. Is someone obliged to disclose the withdrawal of that name?

2. I received a phone message from the management company that my name was written in on a ballot. I was asked if I wanted to run for the board and if I did, the management company would print my name on a ballot that is going to be handed out at the annual meeting next week and I would have to be in attendance in order to be eligible.
a. Is the management company permitted to open the ballots which is obviously how they make this discovery?
b. Can "write in" names be printed on a second ballot to be handed out at the annual meeting?

The information that I have relayed was told to me by the administrator assigned to my HOA.

How soon do you think I should move out of this community?

Thanks so much.
JoanneD1

Shocking???
OMG...someone changed their mind to sit on a board.
OMG...someone complimented you by submitting your name...
OMG...the mgt. company opened the ballots, which are were no longer effective because...OMG...someone changed their minds.
OMG...they want to include the names of people on the new ballot for the meeting.
Yes, if you feel this is shocking you should sell even at a loss to get out of this HOA for these shocking events.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
My post was to get assistance in assessing if there was a failure of the board and/or manager to uphold the standards that owners deserve and for the those parities to fulfill their fiduciary obligations. Failure to follow the law and governing documents can have legal consequences if one establishes breaches. The fact that these directors and manager failed to disclose information, offer to take a name in nomination for an election whose submission deadline had passed and then print a ballot in conflict with ballots that were already distributed seems to demonstrate some unethical and possibly illegal actions. Unfortunately in HOA, if one discovers" irregularities" they have four choices:
1. do nothing (join the masses who are basically asses)
2. expose the issues (be tagged as a troublemaker)
3. become active and try to educate (you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink)
4. uproot and suffer the financial loss in my case
I personally take all elections on a serious level. It is the basis of living in a democracy.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I agree. Just shocking. Would want to make me sell and move on.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoanneD1 on 02/08/2015 5:11 AM
My post was to get assistance in assessing if there was a failure of the board and/or manager to uphold the standards that owners deserve and for the those parities to fulfill their fiduciary obligations. Failure to follow the law and governing documents can have legal consequences if one establishes breaches. The fact that these directors and manager failed to disclose information, offer to take a name in nomination for an election whose submission deadline had passed and then print a ballot in conflict with ballots that were already distributed seems to demonstrate some unethical and possibly illegal actions. Unfortunately in HOA, if one discovers" irregularities" they have four choices:
1. do nothing (join the masses who are basically asses)
2. expose the issues (be tagged as a troublemaker)
3. become active and try to educate (you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink)
4. uproot and suffer the financial loss in my case
I personally take all elections on a serious level. It is the basis of living in a democracy.

Of course, you can and should take board elections seriously, but after reading your post, I really don’t see any conspiracy behind what’s happened (unless of course, there’s something else going on that you didn’t mention.)

First, you said someone on the original ballot withdrew – I would think before the elections took place there would be an announcement that Mr. or Ms. So and so withdrew his/her name. It’s just common sense to mention that so you don’t waste a vote, so you don’t need a law for that (do you?)

As for the second part, I agree it’s not appropriate to open ballots prior to the meeting – the simple way to fix that would be to remind the property manager of the proper procedure.

Then again, suppose the person who nominated you wrote your name on the ballot and shoved it an envelope without writing “election ballot” or something on the front and mailed it off to the property manager. How would the property manage know if it was a ballot or simply a request for another copy of the CCRs without opening it?

Finally, I see nothing illegal about listing write in candidates on a second ballot – I’ve participated in school board elections where there was a space for a write in candidate if you didn’t like anyone listed. If they got enough ballots, they got elected.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Shelia,

Thank you for being the voice of reason.

We had a similar situation in my own association where one candidate withdrew, leaving the number of open seats equaling the number of candidates. That ended the election because we had the conditions for election by acclamation. No further voting was required.

The OP's board should have taken a similar action once the number of candidates equaled the number of open seats. Continuing on with an election in the hopes that some write-in candidate will emerge after nominations have closed is a waste of resources. Ironically, the OP is the only person likely to benefit from continuation of the election.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/09/2015 12:53 AM
Shelia,

Thank you for being the voice of reason.

We had a similar situation in my own association where one candidate withdrew, leaving the number of open seats equaling the number of candidates. That ended the election because we had the conditions for election by acclamation. No further voting was required.

The OP's board should have taken a similar action once the number of candidates equaled the number of open seats. Continuing on with an election in the hopes that some write-in candidate will emerge after nominations have closed is a waste of resources. Ironically, the OP is the only person likely to benefit from continuation of the election.

So if the number of candidates equals the number of seats, you do not seek any other candidates? It may be a waste of time, but in the sacred name of democracy that doesn't feel right either.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoanneD1 on 02/08/2015 5:11 AM
My post was to get assistance in assessing if there was a failure of the board and/or manager to uphold the standards that owners deserve and for the those parities to fulfill their fiduciary obligations. Failure to follow the law and governing documents can have legal consequences if one establishes breaches. The fact that these directors and manager failed to disclose information, offer to take a name in nomination for an election whose submission deadline had passed and then print a ballot in conflict with ballots that were already distributed seems to demonstrate some unethical and possibly illegal actions. Unfortunately in HOA, if one discovers" irregularities" they have four choices:
1. do nothing (join the masses who are basically asses)
2. expose the issues (be tagged as a troublemaker)
3. become active and try to educate (you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink)
4. uproot and suffer the financial loss in my case
I personally take all elections on a serious level. It is the basis of living in a democracy.

You asked if you should move, and I answered.

Your four options are accurate as to what anyone of us can do when one finds "irregularities". However, you are assuming all that these "irregularities" are in fact, irregular.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Appreciate the feedback.

In this particular HOA, anyone can throw their hat into the ring and become a candidate. There is a deadline set and after that deadline passes, no further candidates can come on board. That is fair. My concern has been the management company planning to hand out a different ballot at the annual meeting therefore omitting anyone who has already voted NOT KNOWING THAT A CANDIDATE for whom they may have voted is no longer running. Those members have wasted their votes through no fault of their own because they were not informed of the withdrawal BEFORE the election closed. That is a disclosure issue. If management and the BOD knew there was going to be a change in the slate of officers, don't they have an obligation to disclose that prior to the deadline date for mail in ballots? Management has told me they are going to print a ballot WITHOUT THE NAME of the withdrawn candidate and add the name of an owner who was submitted as a "write-in" on someone's mailed in ballot. This sound highly irregular. Write ins are exactly that......not printed ins! Here is the response I got from the manager:
"The meeting ballot will be inclusive of write in candidates that have accepted their nominations so there shall be differences."

If this is permitted, then nominations from the floor on the day of the meeting shall be permitted too. A botched election for sure.

I am thinking that the entire election might have to be redone because of these actions.
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Joanne, why are you assuming that this is how it will go down? Unless the PM or their administrator told you just that; they won't send out new ones etc. I am not an elections official but I can assume as easily as you that they did not say that to you.

Also, where exactly is your Board in this? Did I miss that you had spoken to them? You are in fact allowed to speak to at least one of them, aren't you?
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Thank you for asking.
I am not assuming anything. I was left a voice mail that my name would go on a newly printed ballot to be handed out at the meeting if I would accept a nomination as someone wrote my name on the Absentee Ballot they sent it. When I questioned the manager about the process, I received the email that I included in my previous post. There is great division on the sitting BOD and now that one has resigned, two of the directors wanted to notify the members of the candidate withdrawal prior to the deadline for mail in ballots was reached while the other two did not. Management messed up but not encouraging the disclosure and has made this election a mess.
Thanks
Joanne
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CyrstalB on 02/09/2015 4:34 AM

So if the number of candidates equals the number of seats, you do not seek any other candidates? It may be a waste of time, but in the sacred name of democracy that doesn't feel right either.

There is a period of time for candidates to come forward and put their names on the ballot. The time frame for closing nominations is normally dictated by the date of the election. Re-opening nominations is not practical and why would you want to screw up your election date to see if there is someone out there who is so indecisive that he or she could not throw his hat into the ring when everyone had an opportunity to do so?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Joanne

You need to rethink a few of your points.

It is quite common for a candidate to die or withdraw from an election after the ballots are printed and even after some voting (absentee) has occurred. In some cases the candidate received enough votes to be elected but the votes were disallowed/disqualified.

It is quite common for someone to write in Mickey Mouse. Mickey actually gets quite a few votes in many elections. He always got few at election time in my last HOA.

It is quite common for someone to write their own name in.

Most ballots do have spaces for write ins. Just because someone is written in does not make them an eligible nor elected candidate. They would still have to be vetted if they receive enough votes to play a role.

Elections can get tricky, especially when there are no rules to cover everything which is quite common in an HOA.

JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Thanks for your points John.

I have no issue with someone withdrawing. I have no issue with write ins, however they come to be. What I take issue with is that there was no disclosure of the withdrawal and that there is going to be a different ballot presented at the meeting compared to the Absentee Ballot sent to all owners. That does not pass the smell test. Elections have deadlines and protocols and the management company does not seem to care. This goes along with the picking and choosing of what rules and regs they enforce. Not a good thing in the business of HOA.

Thanks
Joanne
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
Larry. You hit the nail on the head!
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/09/2015 6:11 AM
Posted By CyrstalB on 02/09/2015 4:34 AM

So if the number of candidates equals the number of seats, you do not seek any other candidates? It may be a waste of time, but in the sacred name of democracy that doesn't feel right either.


There is a period of time for candidates to come forward and put their names on the ballot. The time frame for closing nominations is normally dictated by the date of the election. Re-opening nominations is not practical and why would you want to screw up your election date to see if there is someone out there who is so indecisive that he or she could not throw his hat into the ring when everyone had an opportunity to do so?


I agree with Larry but our docs allow nominations from the floor so we would never know who was on a ballot until we close nominations and vote.

At times, things are not as smooth/simple as many would like.

By the way, we are "ignoring" the nominations from the floor provision. We are prepared to deal with if it happens as we will have write-in spaces on the ballots we distribute at the meeting. In my many associations and many elections only once did I see a nominee from the floor win. He was a former, well known BOD Member who at the last minute decided to run so he nominated himself from the floor. He won a spot as a write in. Other then that one time, I have never seen a nominee from the floor win.

In an election in a prior HOA, we had a fellow nominate himself from the floor. We scrambled but we then found out he was not even an owner. He was the guest of an owner whose home he was purchasing but he got caught up in the moment.....LOL

JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218
Posted:
We had our annual meeting in October (we are 63 single family homes). At the time, we had 3 of the 5 board positions open for election. At the annual meeting, we had 16 proxies and 2 homeowners attend (we met our quorom requirement). The 3 positions were voted in acclimation. The one couple (husband and wife; count as 1 vote) were ineligible to run because they were not in good standing. The other homeowner did not want to run.

Now we are faced with finding a replacement for one of the homeowners just elected because they sold their house in our HOA. We are going to send out a notice asking if anyone wants to serve. Up to this point, we have a fairly apathetic group of homeowners. It is so hard to get people to serve (as is with many HOAs across the US).

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JerryD5 on 02/09/2015 7:20 AM
We had our annual meeting in October (we are 63 single family homes). At the time, we had 3 of the 5 board positions open for election. At the annual meeting, we had 16 proxies and 2 homeowners attend (we met our quorom requirement). The 3 positions were voted in acclimation. The one couple (husband and wife; count as 1 vote) were ineligible to run because they were not in good standing. The other homeowner did not want to run.

Now we are faced with finding a replacement for one of the homeowners just elected because they sold their house in our HOA. We are going to send out a notice asking if anyone wants to serve. Up to this point, we have a fairly apathetic group of homeowners. It is so hard to get people to serve (as is with many HOAs across the US).


And this is one reason (the main one, really) why you get so much weirdness with HOA elections – no one bothers to attend meetings (even the annual meeting) or pay attention to what the board is doing or who’s making the decisions. Then they’re shocked, shocked at what happens later.

I don’t know why people make HOA elections so bloody complicated. In our association, we keep track of when it’s time for current board members to be re-elected - we have 7 spots and staggered terms, each 2 years.

(No, we don’t have term limits because we already have enough problems trying to get anyone to stick around for a first term!)

Before the annual meeting, we ask the people up for re-election if they plan to run for re-election. When the annual meeting notice is sent, we announce who’s running and if another seat or two are open because other people have resigned. The rest I’ve already described above.

At the meeting, people can accept or decline nominations from other people and we vote on whoever’s left. If we don’t get someone from the board election, someone may be appointed to the board if he/she expresses interest at a later meeting. The announcement’s announced to the community and that person is told when he/she will be up for re-election.

Now, maybe it’s me, but some of this is similar to what was done when running for the student council in grade school…why do we forget how things work when we become adults?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 02/10/2015 12:19 PM
Posted By JerryD5 on 02/09/2015 7:20 AM
We had our annual meeting in October (we are 63 single family homes). At the time, we had 3 of the 5 board positions open for election. At the annual meeting, we had 16 proxies and 2 homeowners attend (we met our quorom requirement). The 3 positions were voted in acclimation. The one couple (husband and wife; count as 1 vote) were ineligible to run because they were not in good standing. The other homeowner did not want to run.

Now we are faced with finding a replacement for one of the homeowners just elected because they sold their house in our HOA. We are going to send out a notice asking if anyone wants to serve. Up to this point, we have a fairly apathetic group of homeowners. It is so hard to get people to serve (as is with many HOAs across the US).



And this is one reason (the main one, really) why you get so much weirdness with HOA elections – no one bothers to attend meetings (even the annual meeting) or pay attention to what the board is doing or who’s making the decisions. Then they’re shocked, shocked at what happens later.

I don’t know why people make HOA elections so bloody complicated. In our association, we keep track of when it’s time for current board members to be re-elected - we have 7 spots and staggered terms, each 2 years.

(No, we don’t have term limits because we already have enough problems trying to get anyone to stick around for a first term!)

Before the annual meeting, we ask the people up for re-election if they plan to run for re-election. When the annual meeting notice is sent, we announce who’s running and if another seat or two are open because other people have resigned. The rest I’ve already described above.

At the meeting, people can accept or decline nominations from other people and we vote on whoever’s left. If we don’t get someone from the board election, someone may be appointed to the board if he/she expresses interest at a later meeting. The announcement’s announced to the community and that person is told when he/she will be up for re-election.

Now, maybe it’s me, but some of this is similar to what was done when running for the student council in grade school…why do we forget how things work when we become adults?

Shelia

What is your quorum requirement? As our docs stand now it would be 32 of your 63.

Do not down play the importance of a BOD. Get hauled into court by some disgruntled owners and your student council analogy will soon be forgotten.
JoanneD1 (Arizona)
Posts: 447
Posted:
We will meet the quorum and since all this discussion began....I have gotten a personal apology from the management administrator who told me that there were going to be two different. The "write_ins_ will not be printed on a ballot that they are going to be handing out at the meeting. When there is great dissension in a community, the managers would be well advised to not open a single ballot until the night of the election in the presence of an elections committee. Such was not the case and coupled with the blatant error, one shudders about the things we don't know. We all must be advocates...that is if you can find enough people who care. When word gets out about HOA in-fighting, property values will be harmed.

Thanks for every reply. This is a good avenue to gain insight and knowledge from folks with no skin in the poster's game so to speak.
Joanne
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
After serving 10 years on our board (6 as treasurer, not to mention a few other things which eventually wore me out!), I assure you I DO NOT take board service lightly!!!! In fact, we're having our annual meeting next week, which will precede the regular board meeting. I stepped down last year, but that doesn't mean I checked out - I still attend the annual meeting and once in a while offer suggestions.

Our quorum requirement is 16 and while we've done well in getting proxies to establish quorum, attendance has been dismal. Probably because we have a lot of off-site homeowners - I guess they think the board is some sort of el cheapo property manager that will do the dirty work while they collect rent checks and relax across town or in the suburbs (and out of state in some cases). I don't expect the board to be perfect, but I do expect and demand some common sense to the process. Letting people know who's running is common sense. Not opening ballots before the meeting to ensure there hasn't been any ballot box stuffing and the people voting are actually eligible to vote is common sense. I saw my share of disgruntled owners and after explaining what was being done and why, they usually appreciated the honesty, even if they still didn't like what was said. And if they feel they can do a better job, all they have to do is step up.

I've said over and over again that homeownership isn't a spectator sport - if you want a decent home you have to get up, roll up your sleeves and be prepared to work. If there's a board of directors that's running the show, it's your job (not to mention the well being of the community) to pay attention to what's going on, just like you would your city council.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 02/09/2015 6:11 AM
Posted By CyrstalB on 02/09/2015 4:34 AM

So if the number of candidates equals the number of seats, you do not seek any other candidates? It may be a waste of time, but in the sacred name of democracy that doesn't feel right either.


There is a period of time for candidates to come forward and put their names on the ballot. The time frame for closing nominations is normally dictated by the date of the election. Re-opening nominations is not practical and why would you want to screw up your election date to see if there is someone out there who is so indecisive that he or she could not throw his hat into the ring when everyone had an opportunity to do so?


ok, that makes sense in the context of getting nominations. Thanks.

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