Enforcement/Trespassing

I am pretty sure that this has been discussed here before but I just wanted to see what everyone thinks.

Our previous HOA president would send our maintenance guy out to confiscate any illegal grills she found and then bill the homeowner for removing it. The grills then had to be kept in our property management's storage because the homeowner could claim them as long as they didn't return them to the property.

It is my understanding from several conversations here, that really the HOA should not trespass on a homeowner's property to enforce a regulation. I don't particularly want to put any board member or contractor of the association in a dangerous situation, which I consider going onto someone's property without permission to be. Not to mention that if you don't get shot, you could still get arrested for going onto someone's property and taking their belongings, whether or not they are violating your rules.

Really, I feel like ultimately we can fine homeowners for not being in compliance, but we really shouldn't confiscate their property. In theory, it would be the job of the fire marshal, not like I want everyone to go calling her and tattling on their neighbors because she'll find more than grills, I'm sure.

Thoughts? I had to go to codes court on a different matter, and I feel like if there were an issue that the fire marshal would hold the individual homeowner responsible rather than the association, but perhaps some of you know better.

EDIT

We recently had an issue with somebody parking a car on their front lawn. Totally against our Covenants and we had the right to tow it. That said, we could not do so (tow it) until we had notified the violator and given them 10 days to correct the situation. The car was gone within a few days.

We did send them a letter notifying them it was a Covenant violation, but we took no further action.

Forget the Fire Marshall and/or fines.

The grills are LIFE SAFETY HAZARDS if improperly placed/used.

? would YOU care to reside in the unit ABOVE a balcony grill ?

IMO: No court in the world would rule against someone for mitigating a life safety hazard affecting others.

JohnB's point are exactly how we'd respond in my HOA, which happens to be multistory twin towers. If I called down & said there was a gas grill/propane tank on the balcony below me, our PM probably would give the unit owner 24 hours to remove it, and the same notice would contain 24-notice for our staff to enter the condo to remove it.

Our docs give our HOA the right to enter units in cases of emergency. Generally, in our case, these are water leaks.

It hasn't come up, JohnC, but sometimes it's better to keep these in-house especially since our docs permit it. All except three of our 211 owners have given keys to our units to the PM that are kept in a safe to be used for any situation that's judged to be a threat to other units or the common area.

If grills/propane tanks aren't permitted, your staff can remove them Laura. They might be too close to a fence or where drapes form the house could blow out onto them, etc.

But, importantly, what do your documents say about the HOA entering private property, Laura?? If the docs say it's OK, then it is not trespassing because owners have seen these docs before they buy.

And, sometimes, it's best not to have the fire marshal come to your HOA very often. When they have a bad day, they can find all kinds of violations.

Laura

Would you mind sharing a copy of the local ordinance/code that you think the fire marshal might act upon?

The use, not the possession.

Oops should have started: As many states incorporated the International Fire Code,

Also OP is from TN not CA got her confused with Kerry. I still would let the FM handle it.

Agreed
My personal opinion is that I will not enter upon someone's property (or have someone else do the same) without first obtaining a court order in favor of the HOA ruling that there is a violation that must be corrected.

International fire code, which has been adopted and enforced by our municipality.

We live in townhouses. We have concrete patios, but our issue is that our siding is vinyl, and therefore combustible. Which means that grills can be used, but they have to be used more than 10 feet from the vinyl siding.

No one has a gas grill, because they are not allowed to store combustibles on their premises. Gas tanks are not even permitted to be visible.

The issue is that tons of folks have portable charcoal grills, which we can't outright prohibit because they could be using them in their parking spaces or in the common areas, as long as they are 10 feet from vinyl siding. Many homeowners do this. We also allow for electric grills, which are 100% legal.

The problem is that you technically can't store your grill on your deck because you're not supposed to be using them on your deck. But some people do leave them out while they're cooling and I am never going to not encourage that because putting a hot grill back in your utility closet IS a good way to burn your house down. It seems like our neighborhood busy-bodies always seem to drive by when someone is doing that and then they gripe. In the summer, my one neighbor uses his grill every single day so it's pretty much always out, but I know he's not going to burn our houses down.

We just have busybodies (one of whom has built some sort of wooden fortress around her deck and we all know she has a grill back there, which may be gas and is definitely not safe but we definitely can't go in there to deal with her) that like to gripe when they feel like we aren't enforcing the rules, especially the ones they wrote (which is the grill confiscation policy). They have a neighbor who just had a baby (not their business) and just moved in and didn't know the grill policy (she is renting) and she asked the board if she could wait until she healed up and the weather warmed up to move the grill. So they know none of that but they see us as not enforcing the rule. The other issue is that almost always when we tell people to remove grills, they do so before the scheduled haul-off date anyhow (or hide it and then put it back out later, starting the cycle over again).

We are working on putting in community grills (which they already griped about, as well) but the property is that we don't actually own the property that we want to put it on and the owner is balking at selling it to us even though he has no use for it.

Our CCRs do allow for us to enter homes in emergency situations, but if you think that stops homeowners from lawyering up, you would be incorrect. We already have a woman who threatened to sue us because we went into her home to shut her water off when it was flooding her neighbor's home. So just because we are allowed to do it, doesn't mean that the homeowner won't seek recourse. Not sure I can blame them either.

We absolutely have the right to go into units to seek th source of water intrusion into other units or the common areas. There is no way we'd wait for a court order!!

That someone is threatening to sue is not the same as suing and, imo, she has no case given your governing docs, Laura.

As directors, we must protect our common areas and so, staff enters units when risk is observable.

In my fire district, Mark, the firemarshall has the authority to ban propane tanks form balconies and he did at ours and all the high rises in my urban area. The tanks are banned because in case of fire, in a unit, the propane tank could become involved & threaten the lives of the firefighters.

I agree with Kerry, a water leak in a high rise would be an "emergency" as most would I'm sure, and wouldn't worry about any legal threats in that case. However, even if the tanks were banned by the Fire Marshal, I still wouldn't enter an owners property to confiscate a tank being stored on a balcony, without proper authorities present and mostly likely a court order. In my opinion it would just be asking for trouble. IMO if an owner was so stubborn after notice of the violation, that they refuse to comply with rules and laws, then your going to get into trouble if you take the law into your own hands, with this type of person. I wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone getting hurt by entering this unit.

I believe that the CA Fire Marshal removed those from the state code and has left that as a local option

http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/informationbulletin/pdf/2008/openflameapts.pdf

Mark, in reply to my comment about propane, you wrote: "The use, not the possession." The reference is propane. We do have a couple of renters who've kept the grills (not the propane) on their balconies I assume because they think they'll move someday into a place that permits propane. This, obviously, is not problem.

So, Laura, I didn't know till your recents posts that you're talking charcoal grills. Your issue is pretty complicated!

If there's a way to install community grills, that works great--many of our residents use our two large common area grills. Others of us have bought electric grills that are FAR more effective than they used to be--they even leave grill marks on burgers, steaks, etc. IF used properly!

Yes, at least in our HOA, Mark and I believe high rises all around us prohibit the storage of things like propane, gasoline can,s, etc., in our garage level storage lockers, in our condos and on our balconies.

I agree with NpS, Laura, In your situation, you're using your options as best you can.

I agree John, IMO seems like a double standard when you want a homeowner to fix a violation but don't want the fire marshal to make the HOA fix theirs.