Bathroom gutted - needs venting upcoded

Started by FrancisR • 21 replies • 1705 views

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FrancisR (California)
Posts: 1

Posted:

We have a 2 unit HOA. The master bathroom in our unit needed an overhaul due to water leakage issues. After the bathroom was eviscerated, the plumber said the venting system was not up to code. This would mean moving the vent system, not only in our flat, but the flat downstairs. Our neighbors will not participate in any renovation, saying it's our problem. We would prefer to come to a solution that does not involve an overhaul of the neighbor's bathroom but would like a better understanding of the law.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Your plumber is a plumber, not a code expert, general contractor or HVAC contractor. You do not have a responsibility to bring any existing previously inspected and permitted work up to present code when doing a repair. Baring other evidence, if we assume that your present system was built to code during initial construction, then you are allowed to repair your system as necessary, but there is no requirement to "upcode" anything.

What exactly is wrong with your present system and why was the bathroom demo'ed?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

None of us here are code experts or attorneys. Please go to your local Building Dept. to get the answer to your first question: Do I need to update my bathroom venting system?

Your 2nd question might involve reading your governing documents. It does seem possible that if your must move yours, and that involves moving your neighbors that you MIGHT be stuck with the bill.

You'd probably need an attorney to figure this out, but would it be worth the expense?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I agree with Mark here... Be careful of going to ANY code enforcer!!! They can't ignore after it's been "seen". I too would question his "code" diagnoses. A code violation does NOT mean it's not going to work. It just means it could fail an inspection IF an inspection is required. Which I do not believe is the case in repairs unless a building permit is involved.

Take pictures!!! Take pictures as best you can of before and after. Plus you may want to investigate this plumber with the BBB. Just in case there have been previous issues. You also may want to look for another one to finish the job.

I have helped build over 25 houses and have remodeled many others. I worked as a "handywoman". So this is something that would not be comfortable with if a contractor told me that. I would ask if it is broken than up to code at this point.

Former HOA President

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/16/2015 10:12 AM
None of us here are code experts

How do you know everybody's C.V.?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/16/2015 10:48 AM
I agree with Mark here... Be careful of going to ANY code enforcer!!! They can't ignore after it's been "seen". I too would question his "code" diagnoses. A code violation does NOT mean it's not going to work. It just means it could fail an inspection IF an inspection is required. Which I do not believe is the case in repairs unless a building permit is involved.

Take pictures!!! Take pictures as best you can of before and after. Plus you may want to investigate this plumber with the BBB. Just in case there have been previous issues. You also may want to look for another one to finish the job.

I have helped build over 25 houses and have remodeled many others. I worked as a "handywoman". So this is something that would not be comfortable with if a contractor told me that. I would ask if it is broken than up to code at this point.

If you ask the city, they will often give the rote answer that a permit is required.

If it was built to code when it was built, then it is to code.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Taking pics is a good, idea, Melissa!

I don't know the C.V.s of everyone who posts, Mark, but no regulars have said they're building code experts. Put another way, I didn't want Francis to get the idea that this forum is loaded with such experts, especially in his state and municipality.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

I agree with Mark and Melissa, a code violation in itself may not require fixing. You didn't mention this violation being a safety danger. In reality codes sometimes change overtime. I can understand your desire to have it all up to the current code now that attention has been called to it, but don't think you'll have luck in forcing your downstairs neighbor to renovate their bathroom and pay for it. Having built a couple of homes myself, you learn a lot from the process.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 01/16/2015 11:22 AM
I agree with Mark and Melissa, a code violation in itself may not require fixing. You didn't mention this violation being a safety danger. In reality codes sometimes change overtime. I can understand your desire to have it all up to the current code now that attention has been called to it, but don't think you'll have luck in forcing your downstairs neighbor to renovate their bathroom and pay for it. Having built a couple of homes myself, you learn a lot from the process.

I may very well be wrong though, I'm not an expert, just my opinion.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am not a "code expert" but I do understand a few things... That I would question if someone has not pulled a permit for the work why they would worry about a "code violation"? Who's going to check?

There are codes for safety and codes for good construction practices. It may be that it's not up to code because when you flush the toilet the pipe will gurgle. That's not that serious. However, a code violation that could cause the house to catch on fire... I'd have that fixed.

Code change pretty frequently. I don't think any home built 50 years ago would pass code today. Doesn't mean it' wrong. Just circumstances and education of issues have been addressed to make a code to prevent an issue.

I would not get this up to code if this is not a permit situation. Should be grandfathered in.

Former HOA President

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

"Up to code" is one of the most hackneyed phrases in construction, and is usually said by those:
1) Lacking knowledge
2) Lacking work

It would be nice to see photographs, but this hoary system apparently doesn't allow that

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Does the plumber mean HVAC venting or DWV venting? One is out of his jurisdiction, and why couldn't the other be fixed with a AAV.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

It's easy to research codes online.
It may be harder to understand what you find but you can locate the codes.

Is there a permit for the work?

If not, contact your local permit office and simply ask what permits are needed for bathroom renovations. Most offices are more than happy to explain the process, what is needed and when it's needed.

Typically, when you do a renovation, what is changed must be brought up to current code.
Most reputable contractors have an understanding of what the codes are.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 01/16/2015 2:53 PM
It's easy to research codes online.
It may be harder to understand what you find but you can locate the codes.

Is there a permit for the work?

If not, contact your local permit office and simply ask what permits are needed for bathroom renovations. Most offices are more than happy to explain the process, what is needed and when it's needed.

Typically, when you do a renovation, what is changed must be brought up to current code.
Most reputable contractors have an understanding of what the codes are.

Renovation equals remodel. This is a repair where most AHJ's do not require a permit

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 01/16/2015 2:53 PM

Most reputable contractors have an understanding of what the codes are.

Many plumbers have problems with anything more than straight forward venting. They misunderstand wet vents and such things as island loops.

Thirty five years in construction, and my father taught for the UA for twenty

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 01/16/2015 6:56 PM

Renovation equals remodel. This is a repair where most AHJ's do not require a permit

Actually, the OP said that the bathroom needed an overhaul.

To me, that indicates a renovation. The leak simply prompted the OP to renovate.

The OP even stated that the bathroom was eviscerated (gutted) which would typically be done for renovation, not a simple repair. This is why I believe the OP is renovating and may or may not require permits.

For those who are unaware, Mark's reference to AHJ's indicates the "authority having jurisdiction"

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

A permit is typically not needed unless piping is relocated. A bathroom could be completely remodeled with no permit required if the fixtures go back to the original spots. So then it becomes a question of whether it is HVAC or DWV venting, and whether it is actually completely improper.

If it is DWV venting, I would say it is likely that it is or was properly vented when it was built, and as such is legally grandfathered. The ability to grasp out of the ordinary venting by more modern plumbers and inspectors is less than in the past.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 01/17/2015 7:21 AM

A permit is typically not needed unless piping is relocated. A bathroom could be completely remodeled with no permit required if the fixtures go back to the original spots.

True. This is why when I remodeled our kitchen we didn't change the electrical wiring.

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 01/17/2015 7:21 AM

So then it becomes a question of whether it is HVAC or DWV venting, and whether it is actually completely improper.

Which is why I said a visit to the local permitting office to ask a few questions would be prudent.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

MarkM3,

I have 35+ years with the UA (BTJ)

? local vent ? ! a vent on the fixture side of the trap ! required for any room containing a sanitary fixture !

eg. window, mechanical exhaust

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 01/16/2015 11:44 AM
Does the plumber mean HVAC venting or DWV venting? One is out of his jurisdiction, and why couldn't the other be fixed with a AAV.

AAvs are:

1) not code compliant everywhere

and

2) not good practice as they WILL fail - every single one WILL fail

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 01/19/2015 2:41 PM

AAvs are:

1) not code compliant everywhere

and

2) not good practice as they WILL fail - every single one WILL fail

#1 is true
#2 is debateable

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

repair / replace = no permit or code upgrade required

change layout / relocate = permit required & bring to newest code

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