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CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Quick question regarding a vote on our arch guidelines. We had a special membership meeting specifically called to vote on new arch guidelines. Quorum of membership was in attendance in person and proxy, and over 80 members cast proxy votes.

At the beginning of the meeting the board president himself decided that he didn't want to have a "meeting", but a discussion instead, and proceeded to make changes to the guidelines based on member complaints and suggestions during that meeting. He actually thought he could then keep the proxy votes that were already cast to count toward the required 51%. When a member, and then our attorney told him he couldn't do that since he changed what was to be voted on, the president then went door to door himself to collect proxy votes. After collecting well over a hundred, but just a couple shy of what was needed to pass the new guidelines, an email was sent to the membership saying a special meeting would now be held to vote on the new guidelines. This email didn't come close to meeting the timing requirements outlined in our governing documents for membership meetings, but I guess since he knew he had enough votes it wouldn't matter.

I'm glad the board finally listened to homeowners concerning some of the changes, but I'm concerned because a meeting to "discuss" the guidelines was never officially put out there that some members might legitimately claim they had no opportunity for input, especially since the president only went to enough doors to get the number of votes he needed.

Should I be concerned, or should I look the other way.

Thanks.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Were proposed revisions to guidelines distributed prior to meeting? If no, then not sure how you were going to accomplish a Yes-No vote in a single meeting. I have never seen a Special Meeting where a vote wasn't a series of Yes-No decisions.

Calling it a discussion vs a meeting doesn't seem to have any meaning - Whatever the name, you were conducting HOA business. I assume that by calling it a discussion, he was trying to avoid generating meeting minutes. You can cry foul, but what to do at this point in time? Objection should have been made at meeting.

Re what prez did after the meeting, can you provide a bit more detail on what is required to changes guidelines?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
as an 'end around' to amending the Covenants it may not legally fly

arch guidelines may NOT be more restrictive than the actual Covenants

if your Covenants are actually so vague that this becomes an issue:

imo: they are unenforceable
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 01/06/2015 6:41 AM

Should I be concerned, or should I look the other way.

The good thing is, that the Board listened to the attorney.

The bad thing was that the Board should have had a feedback session with the membership anyway (prior to voting).
The good thing is that the Board did have one.

I would say that if your comfortable with the new guidelines, and nobody else is raising a concern to let it go.

If you are uncomfortable with the guidelines and hope that a new meeting will change the outcome, then challenge the vote based on improper notification.

The important thing is to make sure it doesn't happen in the future and to have a process in place to ensure that that happens.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Thanks for the feedback. The president did ask me how I thought he should proceed and I did try to explain to him during the meeting that he had enough members present to conduct the meeting, but simply not enough votes to pass the guidelines he wanted passed. I was completely ignored.

I and at least one other member did explain to him that the proxies were dated for this meeting and for this vote. By changing the guidelines again he would not be able to use the proxies. I was, as usual, viewed as a trouble maker and accused of trying to throw a wrench into the process.

I think he was trying to save face a little by going door to door rather than going through the proper notification requirements again, which undoubtedly would have had members scratching their heads. He had already gone door to door collecting proxies for his cause prior to the special meeting, but failed to obtain the number of proxies required to pass the changes. But by not doing so I think he's opened the door to potential legal challenges should the board want to get serious about enforcement of the changes.

My belief is there will never be an issue unless this or some future board tries to fine someone on a violation from one of the changes, which thankfully aren't that radical anymore.

Interestingly, the board recently sent out information about our annual meeting next week, encouraging members to show up or sign proxies to get enough members present to officially conduct the meeting, even detailing the number of members necessary to have a quorum. I emailed the board and asked why they still didn't believe a special meeting took place before when these very same requirements were met. Of course, I received not a single response to my inquiry.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 01/06/2015 12:55 PM
My belief is there will never be an issue unless this or some future board tries to fine someone on a violation from one of the changes, which thankfully aren't that radical anymore.

Are you saying that non-compliance is ok but BOD enforcement of the new rules is not ok?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
NO NpS. I'm suggesting that our BOD cannot follow language in our own governing documents to properly enact new guidelines. Therefore, should anyone start to receive fines for noncompliance of any of the changed guidelines they might genuinely argue the guidelines were never properly enacted to begin with.

When issues go to court it costs money, often the association's money. Personally I like to avoid that whenever possible, usually by dotting my eyes and crossing my tees on something this simple. Entire membership was not offered an opportunity to contribute to the discussion. Entire membership should have received 40 days notice of special members meeting as outlined in our declaration, but they received about a weeks notice. Proxies should have been clearly dated as dictated in our bylaws, but they weren't. It's not rocket science.

If the BOD is going to send someone around to measure the height of a homeowners grass, for example, is it too much to ask that they also be compelled to adhere to our governing docs?

None of this will rear its ugly head in my opinion unless fines are issued.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
I understand what your are saying Cf. I am trying to understand the repercussions.

Your original question was whether you should make an issue or let things lie. And you seemed to be leaning in the direction of letting things lie.

Now you seem to be saying that anytime a HO objects to a ruling under the new rules, you think it would be appropriate for that HO to challenge that ruling on the basis that the new rules were not properly adopted.

The net result is IMO a mess.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 01/06/2015 5:29 PM
None of this will rear its ugly head in my opinion unless fines are issued.


I assume that fining is your HOA's primary means of enforcement. So I guess you are saying that this new set of rules is unenforceable.

To your way of thinking, does there come a point in time when these new rules have the same status as the prior rules? Or do you think you will always have 2 sets of rules, one set where fines are enforeceable and the other where fines are unenforceable?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
I have no doubt the present BOD intend to enforce the new rules where it suits their interests or fits their agenda, and as I've said, most of the changes are benign. My feeling is most members will simply comply with the new guidelines, really because the vast majority have no idea what goes on in the neighborhood anyway, let alone the actions of the board. But all it takes is one HO to be upset that he is being fined because he can no longer put his trash can where he has put it for the last 5 years, for example. If that one HO wants to raise an issue he legitimately could in my view. And then legal fees might be incurred. That's really what I'd like to see avoided, unnecessary costs to the association.

Appreciate the feedback NpS

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