HOA's the most difficult board to deal with?

Started by MarkM31 • 75 replies • 6005 views

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MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

That's what my late father thought. He was on the board for the families condo, and had never experienced so much difficulty in being on a board in his entire career, which included the NLRB and the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. At least in those cases, the parties knew what the issues were and had read the documents. In our board, too often the president was voted in because they were the most vociferous at wanting to be in charge, yet either never to the time to read the documents or were incapable of understanding the documents. I ran into the same issues when I became a board member, to the point that at a board meeting I said to the president "it's right there (pointing to a particular page in the CC&R's), go ahead and read it, I really don't know what the problem is here". After that she hated me, but was deposed a full week into her term after a wonderful melt-down of lying and cheating, after her coup unravelled.

What do others who attend professional meeting think.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

There is a difference between "Volunteer" boards and "Professional/work" boards. Volunteers board like HOA's ONLY requirements are to be owners. Most don't require a board member to have read the rules. You can't expect "professional" behavior or even ability out of someone on a HOA/volunteer board. It doesn't matter if they have professional job or are their kid's scout leader. They were voted in by people who weren't interested in doing the job themselves.

Apathy runs most HOA's. That's not the case at work/professional meetings. Professional meetings do have a defined goal and purpose. No one is that "apathetic" at their job if it means keeping it or improving it....

One needs to change their expectations and perspectives on most HOA issues. Don't expect "professional" or even those are "Professionals" (I.E. Realtors, lawyers...) are still just your fellow owners. They aren't required to bring their "Professional" lives into the mix. If they do, then that can cause more issues or misconceptions.

HOA's are NOT set up to "keep or improve" home values. That is a misconception that many buy into. The purpose is to make the property more ATTRACTIVE to potential buyers. Having the rules in place makes it so your fellow neighbors can regulate amongst themselves what they feel is acceptable or not. Put an outhouse in the front yard? The HOA has the power to remove it without having to go to the city/county to do it. A faster and better option.

A HOA's board also can't manage a budget because they want to run it like they do their home budget. A HOA budget does not work that way. The board is responsible for spending EVERYBODY's money. Hence why some expenditures require more than just a board vote. Many boards don't understand what "Non-profit" means and that you do not hold "yard/bake sales" to raise money. Many members don't understand it as well. A professional board this isn't an issue as much as it's the company's money and not your own or co-workers.

There are a lot of factors why professional meetings and HOA meetings operate and are different. You need to stop trying to make them into something they are NOT. HOA meetings are NOT going to be "professional" and not necessarily full of adults. Just a lot of "adult language" in some cases. You run a HOA I like to say the "cume-by-ya" method with your neighbors around the campfire...

Former HOA President

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/27/2014 8:45 AM
Don't expect "professional" or even those are "Professionals" (I.E. Realtors,....)...

Realtors as "professionals"?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Some people on here consider them professionals on here. I do not agree with that assessment but in the HOA world some take it that Realtors have an advantage in HOAs... Or think they should know more about them...

Former HOA President

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Are lying idiot former president was a realtor

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 556

Posted:

Replace are with our

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I agree with what much of what Melissa said.

I also think you find a lot of mayhem on HOA boards because owning a home is personal. You've invested a lot of time and money into getting it and keeping it maintained (not to mention paying the mortgage, insurance and property taxes on time!) and when you're in an organization that can dictate things like parking on the street, what color you can paint your house or how many dogs you can have, people take that really seriously. More often than not, they take offense when people tell them what they can and can't do, forgetting that's what you sign up for when you join a HOA.

All of that said, I don't think nearly enough homeowners (from where we get board members) take the time to research what they're getting into before they buy and when they join a HOA board, they think running it is like running the PTA or the usher board at a church. There is information out there that can educate everyone, but people either don't know it exists (the realtors and developers certainly don't take the time to do it) or they refuse to take the time to learn. I guess people are happier winging it because they don't want to admit they don't know and are too lazy or scared to find out, less they find out they were mistaken. Especially if that mistakes ends up costing lots and lots of money.

I've read dozens of conversations on this message board since I discovered it and I really believe too many people overthink HOA living. If you stop and take a deep breath and are wiling to look at an issue from all sides, most of the time you find that running a HOA is really a matter of applying common sense, being fair and remembering that the decisions you make have to benefit everyone, not just yourself or a few select homeowners. If you want to do the job correctly, you have to take the time to read and ask lots of questions. You also have to be willing to stand up for what you believe because when you have to make a decision people won't like, you need to have the backbone to explain yourself. People won't always agree and they don't have to - you, on the other hand, must act with integrity. If you can't do that or aren't willing to do so - do everyone a favor and stay off the board!

Your president had a big ego, but didn't understand that as a board member, she's held to a higher standard of behavior and so she got dumped. Good for your community, but now it's up to the rest of you to do what she didn't - learn what's supposed to be done, read your documents and then follow them. f you don't, you and the remaining board members may find yourselves out on your ass just like this former president. Good luck to you!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/27/2014 8:45 AM
Don't expect "professional" or even those are "Professionals" (I.E. Realtors, lawyers...) are still just your fellow owners. They aren't required to bring their "Professional" lives into the mix. If they do, then that can cause more issues or misconceptions.

I've never seen a "professional" not bring their lives (aka knowledge) into the mix.

Professionals typically have a method of thinking and a certain amount of specific knowledge based on their chosen profession. I seriously doubt if "professional" will simply quit thinking the way that has worked for them or ignore the knowledge that they possess simply because they now serve in a "volunteer" position.

Would I ask the homeowner who happens to be a general contractor to do the work? No. However, I would certainly pay attention to them if they said they had concerns over another contractor.

Would I ask the homeowner who happens to be an attorney for Association legal advice? No. However, I might ask them to speak to the Association attorney on the boards behalf.

Melissa, I understand that your actual point was that because it's a volunteer board that those "professionals" who serve may be serving with "professionals" who has expertise in other areas or may have never worked a day in their life. Therefore, expectations of what to expect from others may need to be adjusted. I simply think that you went a little overboard trying to illustrate that point.

Personally, my initial approach was mixed when I first served on my Board. I came with a military background where there may be differing opinions on how to achieve a goal, but everyone agreed that the goal was to be achieved. This, I discovered was not always the case at an HOA meeting.

I also brought an engineering background which had me present all options I saw along with the pros and cons of each one with a recommendation for which one or two I thought was best. I discovered that this was simply too much info. Therefore, I adjusted my process to only providing one or two options (vs. all that I saw). This seems to work better.

I also realized that many are willing to approve something as long as they don't have to do the work (and contrary will disapprove something based on an unwillingness to do the work). Therefore, I often do the work associated with any proposal I make ahead of time (prepare letters, rough drafts of policies, proposal requests, etc.).

So, I don't think that an HOA's board is the most difficult to deal with. However, I do think that when you are willing to serve, you need to be willing to adjust your expectations and, perhaps, how you would normally approach issues in other settings.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/27/2014 9:27 AM

Thank you Tim for pointing this out, if it weren't for my highly developed professional training, I would of never gotten through the first few minutes of any of our board meetings, let alone our annual meeting as President. We could only dream that every board member had the benefit of that education.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Keep in mind I was a Quality Manager in my "Professional" life and educated in many applicable areas HOAs encompass. That experience and education did indeed help me in running my HOA. It did provide me with a unique skill and ability that others did not have.

What I meant in not expecting a professional to use or provide their skills is that HOA time is when they "let their hair down". They are not going to be just a lawyer 24/7. They have an interest in their property too. They also do not want to run for their boards or provide their expertise for free. They can be just as apathetic as any other member.

Example : We had a County Sherriff officer move in and rent. The home was at the front entrance. Policy allows them to bring their car home. So the car sat out near front entrance. People ASSUMED that woukd be a deterrent and even helped our neighborhood watch. Like they patrolled or something. NO this was NOT the case. Matter of fact, our mailboxes were broken into which was across from her car. Her child support check was stolen along with my last paycheck. I was the one who had to report this to the police and postal service.She was asking me what to do!

So do not ask the lawyer who lives down the road for advice and get it. Do not expect that lawyer to be good at their job either. It is their job but not their life. Expect them to have the same invested interest you all do...

Former HOA President

JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218

Posted:

I serve on a board of "professionals". We have varied education levels and life experiences. I was recruited to the board 5 years ago by a former board president (I filled the remaining year of a vacancy). It has been a tumoltuous 5 years. I am now the board president. Part of me wishes I was still one of those apathetic homeowners. I know why some adamently hate HOAs because at times we (board members) are perceived as petty and untouchable (along with a host of undesirable names). I have challenged that perception in our HOA. We still have a few apathetic homeowners. We still have one or two homeowners that think the board is "out of control" (their words). Things have calm down as of late. I am happy with our present board and I think we make informed decisions to the best of our abilities.

I am truly glad I found this forum. It has given me a new perspective on how things work within an HOA.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Mark, as someone once posted here: "HOAs would be a great place to live if it wasn't for the people."

HOA Boards can be trying at times depending on who is on them and how long their fellow homeowners are willing to put up with what is sometimes seen as nonsense.

But then again I don't find the average HOA BOD any more difficult to deal with than the petty bureaucrats and idiotic politicians who you have to deal with in the non-HOA world.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

There are many business-people or professionals in my HOA who won't publicize that they provide services that community members could use. Sure, if you know them well enough, they will take good care of you - but they are very selective - and that selectivity often has to do with the fact that any problem that they could ordinarily leave at work is destined to come home with them whenever they are dealing with neighbors.

IMO, this is just another variant of the old adage "You don't **** where you eat." And I think it is this built-in inability to escape from undesirable outcomes at home that makes dealings with HOA boards unlike any other relationship.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

The SOLE purpose of an HOA is to maintain the common elements.

The main common element would be the "Engineered storm water retention system." a/k/a the Pond or the Lake.

The problems ALL occur when the BOD attempts to regulate matters OUTSIDE of the Covenant(s).

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 12/27/2014 9:17 PM
Mark, as someone once posted here: "HOAs would be a great place to live if it wasn't for the people."

HOA Boards can be trying at times depending on who is on them and how long their fellow homeowners are willing to put up with what is sometimes seen as nonsense.

But then again I don't find the average HOA BOD any more difficult to deal with than the petty bureaucrats and idiotic politicians who you have to deal with in the non-HOA world.

I got a good friend mad at me because I told her she had to request permission to buy any item before being reimbursed for it for our finances. I checked and she was on the Board when we made this resolution and signed that she agreed to the resolution. This resolution could be seen as nonsense, but I don't want owners taking it upon themselves to buy things first and ask for reimbursement after the fact. I told her we what we do for one we have to do for everyone.

Then I got to thinking about it and the item she purchased (to my knowledge) has not been purchased in the past with Association funds. I texted her and advised her to check with the chair of the dinner committee to see if she could be reimbursed from the dinner committee fund. The item was (I think plastic) tablecloths for our community room tables.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I've been thinking about this topic. Not having sat on corporate boards, city councils or other structures that represent a lot of people, I can't talk about them. I have sat on board-like structures with smaller scale goals, and the structures are similar to an HOA. Some were in my career field, and some were community volunteer groups.

What they all share with an HOA Board is a responsibility to the larger group--shareholder, citizens, improving certain careers, beneficiaries of the volunteer work, etc.

To my mind, HOA Boards should have a training session once a year about three things. The basic fundamentals of their budgets, the basic major parts of their covenants, and and the basics of conducting effective meetings.

Many HOAs are of a size and low level of complexity (few amenities) that the budget is fairly simple. No advanced or "professional" background needed. 8th grade math helps. But SOMEONE on the Board needs to understand the budget and reserves and it might take a few hours to learn them.

Despite the legalese, the governing documents are not that difficult to understand. They often, though, are boring, poorly organized and sometimes lengthy (Ours are 120 pp.) Still, the basics are obvious--as JohnB often says, and rightfully so, the Board's job is to maintain the common areas or common elements. You'll find that in any set of covenants. And that's the one not to "overthink"; just do it; budget for it. Doesn't take much education or a "professional" background to grasp this. I always disagree with Melissa about this, but if the common elements are well-maintined, property values should be positively affected.

Where directors seem to collide with each other are at the level of meetings. Tim wrote that "...Professionals typically have a method of thinking..." I agree, but so do all humans. Our "methods of thinking," come from lots of sources--our work ("professional" or not), our leisure preferences, our personal background, family status. And sometimes these "methods of thinking" clash.

On our board, for example, a few of the seven have a method of thinking that focus on individual face-to-face relationships. Others "think" about the HOA as a whole. Our newest and a promising director is a still-young retired military man who also then spent a few years as a police officer. I asked, and he has absolutely no background in Board-like structures, not even a task force. But he took it upon himself to interview every director about our ideas, our goals and he wrote careful notes. He has read our easiest document, our Rules & Regs. We have a staff of 6 access control officers and I've already suggested to him that looking at their work processes and conditions might be a nice way to get started as a director. He'd like that, he said.

But, it's crucial that meetings be structured with agendas that keeps all of these thinkers' eyes on the same goals and purposes as much as possible. We all want to protect our investments--ideas for doing that go on the agenda and are fairly and respectfully discussed

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/28/2014 3:53 PM
I've been thinking about this topic. Not having sat on corporate boards, city councils or other structures that represent a lot of people, I can't talk about them. I have sat on board-like structures with smaller scale goals, and the structures are similar to an HOA. Some were in my career field, and some were community volunteer groups.

What they all share with an HOA Board is a responsibility to the larger group--shareholder, citizens, improving certain careers, beneficiaries of the volunteer work, etc.

To my mind, HOA Boards should have a training session once a year about three things. The basic fundamentals of their budgets, the basic major parts of their covenants, and and the basics of conducting effective meetings.

Many HOAs are of a size and low level of complexity (few amenities) that the budget is fairly simple. No advanced or "professional" background needed. 8th grade math helps. But SOMEONE on the Board needs to understand the budget and reserves and it might take a few hours to learn them.

Despite the legalese, the governing documents are not that difficult to understand. They often, though, are boring, poorly organized and sometimes lengthy (Ours are 120 pp.) Still, the basics are obvious--as JohnB often says, and rightfully so, the Board's job is to maintain the common areas or common elements. You'll find that in any set of covenants. And that's the one not to "overthink"; just do it; budget for it. Doesn't take much education or a "professional" background to grasp this. I always disagree with Melissa about this, but if the common elements are well-maintined, property values should be positively affected.

Where directors seem to collide with each other are at the level of meetings. Tim wrote that "...Professionals typically have a method of thinking..." I agree, but so do all humans. Our "methods of thinking," come from lots of sources--our work ("professional" or not), our leisure preferences, our personal background, family status. And sometimes these "methods of thinking" clash.

On our board, for example, a few of the seven have a method of thinking that focus on individual face-to-face relationships. Others "think" about the HOA as a whole. Our newest and a promising director is a still-young retired military man who also then spent a few years as a police officer. I asked, and he has absolutely no background in Board-like structures, not even a task force. But he took it upon himself to interview every director about our ideas, our goals and he wrote careful notes. He has read our easiest document, our Rules & Regs. We have a staff of 6 access control officers and I've already suggested to him that looking at their work processes and conditions might be a nice way to get started as a director. He'd like that, he said.

But, it's crucial that meetings be structured with agendas that keeps all of these thinkers' eyes on the same goals and purposes as much as possible. We all want to protect our investments--ideas for doing that go on the agenda and are fairly and respectfully discussed

Professionalism is not what you know, but more of how you act and carry yourself among your peers/clients/patients/customers. It's how you hold yourself up to scrutiny; it's how you handle nimrods, ding dongs and hecklers;it's how you present the information that you do know without throwing people under the bus or insulting others; it's more of how you carry yourself and portray yourself to others, regardless of your job title or knowledge. That is the professionalism I spoke of in previous post; it's how you handle yourself with disruptions, good or bad while in a group of people. But what it is not is how much you know of any one subject.

I knew very little of HOA business when I got on the board, and surely there is a few HOs that think I still don't, but professionalism through the ruckus we experienced was ultimately how any trust was developed.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 12/29/2014 4:33 AM

Professionalism is not what you know, but more of how you act and carry yourself among your peers/clients/patients/customers. It's how you hold yourself up to scrutiny; it's how you handle nimrods, ding dongs and hecklers;it's how you present the information that you do know without throwing people under the bus or insulting others; it's more of how you carry yourself and portray yourself to others, regardless of your job title or knowledge. That is the professionalism I spoke of in previous post; it's how you handle yourself with disruptions, good or bad while in a group of people. But what it is not is how much you know of any one subject.

I knew very little of HOA business when I got on the board, and surely there is a few HOs that think I still don't, but professionalism through the ruckus we experienced was ultimately how any trust was developed.

That, I believe, is the best definition of professionalism I have read in a very long time.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I have read all the posts. I have been on HOA BODS's, Fraternal BOD's, Civic BOD's, and Corporate BOD's.

I have see many problem with HOA BOD Member's.

1. Someone gets elected/appointed and they have no idea how a business operates. The finances are beyond them. They cannot even read a simple financial spreadsheet.

2. They got on the BOD with an agenda and focus on that agenda only. This agenda aside, they are useless.

3. They are afraid to commit, sign, etc. anything without legal advice.

4. They have no idea what the Covenants, Bylaws say and they do not care as they want it the way they think it should be.

5. They think it is their way or no way.

6. They have never been in a management position thus do not think 101 about managing anything, especially people.

7. They have never been in a position where the majority vote will rule.

8. One of the worst fellow BOD Members was a lawyer. He was so scared to make any decisions without legal advice.

9. Another bad BOD Member was a real estate agent. They wanted to play lawyer about everything especially contracts.

10. Another bad BOD Member was a school teacher that was all for punishing all for the actions of one.

11. Another bad BOD Member had a poor vocabulary. Anything he wrote was often illegible and mis-directing.

I myself have several characteristics that I have to keep in check.

1. I am a sales/marketing type. I shoot from the hip. I have the ideas but I need someone to follow up and implement them.

2. I dislike lawyers and feel they are not needed near as much as others think they are.

3. I ask for and listen to advice, but when push comes to shove I do it my way.

4. I am always willing to explain/educate someone on something but I get easily upset when they cannot grasp it. We are not talking brain surgery.

5. I would rather see action then no action even if we have to go back and clean it up.

We all have our plusses and minuses when it comes to serving on a BOD

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think, Crystal, that part of what I was saying is that good directors and effective Boards do NOT need to come from so-called professional (or managerial) backgrounds.

On one hand, actual professionals have mastered certain sets of knowledge and usually have a fair amount of autonomy is their work lives. They hold certain credentials that are overseen by their professional organization. These organizations have Codes of Ethics. None of necessarily lead to success as a HOA director.

You seem to be talking about professional conduct, which usually is connected with ethical behavior, integrity. And you also seem to be talking about personal "class" or style. But those who do remain calm, listen to others, keep their eyes on the overall goals of the HOA can be any of us! The high school grad, ex career military fellow, new director on my Board shows great promise. And he has NO relevant background except for his willingness to serve. Too early to really tell, but he also seems to possess a very healthy curiosity about our HOA. And I think that's a huge plus!!

Another director is a math whiz--if any of us spit out numbers at a Board meeting, he can calculate the answers in his head. He has a professional background in that field. He just resigned as treasurer because we didn't follow his advice about how much we should fund our reserves for next year. But, despite his skill at math, he does not actually know our budget! He's lazy in that sense because he can so often "figure out" answers. He lacks class, style or professional demeanor at all. He does have one pet project that he protects and talks about all year.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

Professional = relating to a job that requires special education, training, or skill, paid to participate in a sport or activity.

Professionalism = the skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well.

I don't think you can really be expected to be a professional without demonstrating professionalism. Therefore, I still believe Crystal's definition would fit.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think we all know "professionals," who do not behave professionally; they may even behave as boorish, bullying loudmouths.

I think we all know non-professionals--no advanced credentials or memberships in professional organizations--who epitomize professionalism in their appearance, manner and demeanor, which might boil down to plain old poise.

Back to HOA Boards, though. I recently attended an HOA seminar in my city. One topic concerning meetings was: Motions Not Emotions!" Those able to present their ideas and arguments without high drama & emotion often are good directors, IMO.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

As in any other association, an HOA board is made up of different individuals with different skills. And while I think that the professional/professionalism discussion is interesting, it doesn't really capture what I am looking for in a fellow BOD member.

I am looking for a mix of individuals who, as a group, can fulfill the following responsibilities (with the exception of the last 2 on my list).

1. Old Soul - Someone with a desire to maintain the traditions of the community.
2. Visionary - Someone who can set the agenda for where the HOA needs to be financially in 3-5 years.
3. Public Face - Someone with the poise and personality to deliver the good news and the bad news.
4. Contract Manager - Someone who can set priorities for vendor relations.
5. Recruiter/Activist - Someone who can motivate others to take action.
6. Bean Counter - Someone who can set priorities for financial operations and controls.
7. Geek - Someone who can set priorities for implementing technology.
8. Hard Ass - Someone who doesn't want to spend any amount for any purpose.
9. Newbie - Someone who is willing to devote the time and energy to learn the ropes.

X. Empty Suit - What the rest of us get stuck with when no one steps up.
Y. Road Hog - What the rest of us cope with when one person seeks to dominate the agenda.

Every BOD member in my HOA doesn't need all skills. For example, among our 5 directors, we may have only 2 with the poise and personality to present our Public Face - the other 3 can be annoying PITAs as long as they can deliver other needed skills (where a Public Face may not be that important) and don't become Empty Suits or Road Hogs.

IMO, these attributes tell much more about us than our official titles (Prez, VP, Treas, and Secy) or our professional/non-professional training, experience, preferences, and blind spots.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

One of the most important items when sitting on certain professional boards such as an HOA or areas such as City Councils is you cannot let your personal preference control. For example as a Planning Commissioner in a City when you are wearing that hat you have to consider the local codes and what is the legally, morally, and ethically right decision. It does not matter if you personally may disagree … even if you may not like what the current code states you have to realize that the owners of property have their rights under the local laws and codes. Until anything you disagree with is changed you must base your decision on what is currently stated. This is where many HOA boards run into issues because many directors will make decisions based on their personal desires vs. the controlling documents.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You mean your HOA obeys human nature???!!! Wow... Can not imagine that happening... Yes, that was sarcism... You can not fight human or mother nature... You just wish to change it... No one knows how to translate their documents or the laws... Hence, why you educate or hire a lawyer...

Former HOA President

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

A professional is a term used when describing a person who is following a certain career path, such as a professional athlete, and professionalism is how they act amongst others. It does not apply to any one career path or lack there of.

A therapist who talks about their patients to another patient is not very professional, b because we know the standards of which they practice their job, and we know it's not a good thing, but they can still be considered a professional of the mental health industry. Their degree implies a certain degree of professionalism.

A plumber who wears booties over his boots so as not to mess up your floor and then mops up after themselves would be considered a person who has a high standard of professionalism. He is not considered a professional per se because it doesn't require the almighty college degree. But they can still be highly professional.

Everyone on here would agree that Tim here is the best at practicing complete professionalism with all of his replies or posts. And we don't even know what "profession" he is in. But we can all agree on his level of professionalism. Myself on the other hand, will admit that I have posted a "few" replies that fall short of being professional, that is easy to do on an internet forum. I am striving to be like Tim all the time here though

BanksS
Posts: 403

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 12/30/2014 4:30 AM
A professional is a term used when describing a person who is following a certain career path, such as a professional athlete, and professionalism is how they act amongst others. It does not apply to any one career path or lack there of.

A therapist who talks about their patients to another patient is not very professional, b because we know the standards of which they practice their job, and we know it's not a good thing, but they can still be considered a professional of the mental health industry. Their degree implies a certain degree of professionalism.

A plumber who wears booties over his boots so as not to mess up your floor and then mops up after themselves would be considered a person who has a high standard of professionalism. He is not considered a professional per se because it doesn't require the almighty college degree. But they can still be highly professional.

Everyone on here would agree that Tim here is the best at practicing complete professionalism with all of his replies or posts. And we don't even know what "profession" he is in. But we can all agree on his level of professionalism. Myself on the other hand, will admit that I have posted a "few" replies that fall short of being professional, that is easy to do on an internet forum. I am striving to be like Tim all the time here though

Crystal,
I agree with you and what a thoughtful explanation. I too am striving to be like Tim all the time here because I have gotten frustrated with certain posters here and not acted professionally at all. My apologies folks.

BEST WISHES FOR A HEALTHY AND HAPPY 2015!!! - Banks

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Crystal Banks, I agree. I know I haven't always responded properly to responses to my posts.

BonnieG1 (Nebraska)
Posts: 1,186

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BonnieG1 on 12/30/2014 6:25 AM
Crystal Banks, I agree. I know I haven't always responded properly to responses to my posts.

When I think about it more, maybe there are some responses it is not worth time or effort to reply to.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

? not even if they are factually correct ?

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Most of us want to help anyone that comes here, however like many, I can now read the writing on the wall much sooner, and am learning to leave the thread alone, or pick it up for Edu-tainment, a good laugh or two while learning something.

:>)

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 12/30/2014 12:39 PM
Most of us want to help anyone that comes here, however like many, I can now read the writing on the wall much sooner, and am learning to leave the thread alone, or pick it up for Edu-tainment, a good laugh or two while learning something.

:>)

I agree. There comes a point, even when one has participated in the chat subject, to let it go as in stop posting on it.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, but I missed Janet's important comment: "This is where many HOA boards run into issues because many directors will make decisions based on their personal desires vs. the controlling documents."

I've seen that a lot on our Boards and one director--just defeated for reelection--says she's unable to think beyond her personal friends, family, etc. We all must protect our personal relationships at all costs! Her mind just doesn't work at the community level. I think our Board will improve now that she's gone!!

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/30/2014 5:32 PM

Her mind just doesn't work at the community level. I think our Board will improve now that she's gone!!

Hopefully this will be the case for your Association.

Hopefully you will still thank her for serving. Even those who have personal agendas or are concerned on losing a friend if they had to say "no" as a member of the Board, that individual did agree to serve and likely served to the best of their ability.

Having had to address issues where nobody was willing to serve, I have learned to appreciate those who are willing to serve despite their reasons for serving.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Tim. please,. this woman was a gawdawful "director." More tomorrow, but you've being way too kind.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/30/2014 8:56 PM

Tim. please,. this woman was a gawdawful "director." More tomorrow, but you've being way too kind.

Are you saying that you can't bring yourself to thank her for taking time out of her life to serve on the Association's Board?

Good, bad or indifferent as a Director, or a committee member, they should still be thanked for serving and, in my opinion, thanked publicly (at a meeting and/or in a newsletter). Otherwise, you may risk offending others who were thinking of stepping up to serve but will think twice about it because they believe that there contribution won't be welcomed. Worst case, this could have some believe that your Board is clickish.

As you said in a previous posting, a Director needs to put aside their personal feelings and do what is best for the community as a whole.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

With the recent posts between Kerry and myself, I went back and looked at the newsletter I sent to the membership when I was having issues with may Association. I would like to share a section of an editorial that I published in one of those newsletters:

It was obvious from the discussions that took place at the annual meeting that many of us have the same concerns and frustrations. These appeared to be mainly associated with the methodology the ACC was taking to correct a deficiency in the Association files. Some of this frustration was directed at the
Board, partially because of the appearance that things. were being decided in secret

I for one would like to take this opportunity to express my appreciation to anyone who has worked on the Board or their committees. It is indeed a thankless job. It also tends to be a job that allows one to only hear from those that have issues and are already on the defensive, which usually makes it more of a thankless job. As the Board commented at the meeting, they all have day jobs in addition to the ones we elected them to. To the Board, You have my thanks for being willing to serve!

Many of us serve or have served on our Associations Boards and Committees. There are many on this site who have not served or have offered to serve but not been elected or asked. Everyone who is simply willing to volunteer and say I'll serve deserves to be thanked. It doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with their motives for serving or the decisions they made when they served. They were willing to take time and energy away from their families to serve when others will not. For that reason alone, they deserve to be thanked.

I think that if a Board can not take the time to thank someone who has served and is now leaving the Board, that that would indeed be the most difficult board to serve with.

On that note, even though I don't serve in your Association, I thank each and everyone of you who have volunteered in the past, are serving currently or will volunteer to serve in the future. Even though it isn't said often enough (if at all), THANK YOU !!

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

While it goes without saying that anyone who volunteers their time when they don't have to, in effort to help make their community better deserves to be thanked for their sacrifice. However, I do believe their "motives for serving" and what their motives were for bad "decisions they made" must be considered. There are people who choose to run and serve for less than honorable reasons and have personal agendas in mind. Serving with another board member that has self serving motives and interests at heart would to me be the most difficult board to serve with (and would not deserve any thanks whatsoever).

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,063

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/30/2014 9:56 PM

Serving with another board member that has self serving motives and interests at heart would to me be the most difficult board to serve with (and would not deserve any thanks whatsoever).

We will have to agree to disagree then.

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Tim's replies are the epitome of professionalism, regardless of how awful a person is and regardless of their reasons, thanking them for their service, especially publicly, is the right thing to do because it is what is best for the entire HOA. It's putting your personal feelings aside, even when you have a valid reason for them.

We can use the current political situation as an example of how being unprofessional hurts more than helps. The way both parties act and what they say to one another, on or off camera is not good for our country. Name calling, throwing people under the bus has not helped in any way shape or form. Both sides pure hatred for the other is driving the decisions, not what is best for you and me. (not asking for debate, just using as an example)

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

True professionalism is not faking sincerity. Although some professions need to learn to fake or put-on sincerity, in order to make the most money, like in some sales professions. I feel there is no need for this within the HOA. No selling necessary just facts presented so educated decisions can be made. Being truly professional means always aiming for excellence and never knowingly compromising your standards and values. I believe morals and ethics should spill over into HOA business. True professionalism is not faking sincerity, it's authentic.

Naturally no good ever comes from name calling, or hatred driven decisions, never suggested that. Don't have to thank anyone for bad behavior, just let them step down. You must do what is for the good of the entire HOA, IMO saying a fake thank you wouldn't be setting a good example. People probably know the person was no good and want to know the other board members are intelligent enough to see through the facade. If they think the entire board is fake or naive they may not want to serve or participate in the future (they may give up or become apathetic).

To me the most difficult board the deal with would be the one that is not sincere yet is very good at covering up that fact. In other words a manipulative board would be the most difficult to deal with because they are professional con artists, very good at selling themselves and their own agenda.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

What the _______ happened? Why does anyone think that the director who served for 6-1/2 years and was defeated in a recent election was NOT thanked??? I'm baffled about how Tim and Crystal reached this illogical conclusion!

Our Board prez offered a special note of thanks to "Mabel" in her Message from the President in our Nov. newsletter. The prez also welcomed our new director. She again thanked that former director at our Nov. open mtng. The president did not go on and rave about Mabel's performance. Mabel was toxic along with being unable to govern or even learn the basis about our documents. She already is spreading rumors that the Board will be sued for it's budget decision for '15, though this rumor seems to be subsiding.

I don't think it's insincere to thank someone for their service, and it might offer a bit of incentive to others who might want to be on our Board of 7.

Meantime, our Nov. open meeting was a sheer delight without Mabel and we accomplished a lot!

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Agreed. Someone elected and having served 6 years plus years should be sincerely thanked for their service, even if it was less than perfect. Not the intended point. Trying to make my way around to the original discussion "HOA's most difficult board to deal with?".

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 12/31/2014 12:16 AM

We will have to agree to disagree then.

I do think that there are circumstances when a board members don't deserve thanks because their behavior is so unconscionable.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
True professionalism is not faking sincerity.

Way too subjective for me. IMO, Tim's approach is straightforward and objective. In an HOA setting, non-apathy does deserve a thank you. It's way better than what you get from most people.

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
Although some professions need to learn to fake or put-on sincerity, in order to make the most money, like in some sales professions.

Incredibly subjective. Puts a taint on anyone who is in sales. Don't understand why this is called for.

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
I feel there is no need for this within the HOA. No selling necessary just facts presented so educated decisions can be made.
Never seen it work this way. One board member is always trying to influence or persuade others (a.k.a. selling) to support some action or to deny some action. That's the give and take that produces well thought out outcomes.

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
Being truly professional means always aiming for excellence and never knowingly compromising your standards and values.

"Aiming for excellence and never knowingly compromising your standards and values" sounds like a "my way or the highway" attitude.

The problem of course is that my values could be very different than yours. I see my BOD's primary role as stewards of my HOA's financial and physical resources. Financial considerations are at the heart of every decision we make. I can strive for excellence without compromise in pursuing these values - and you might find that objectionable because you do not share my vision of the responsibilities of the BOD.

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
I believe morals and ethics should spill over into HOA business.

I don't think that anyone whose posts I have read on this forum is immoral or unethical. More importantly, I don't think that they themselves think they are immoral or unethical. So once again, you are attempting to establish a subjective standard where you stand in judgment of others even though those others think they are doing their best to be fair and responsible. The benefit of an objective standard like Tim's is that there is no personal judgment involved. People can be thanked even for being a seat-warmer when no one else is willing to take that seat.

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
True professionalism is not faking sincerity, it's authentic.

Once again, incredibly subjective.

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
Naturally no good ever comes from name calling, or hatred driven decisions, never suggested that. Don't have to thank anyone for bad behavior, just let them step down. You must do what is for the good of the entire HOA, IMO saying a fake thank you wouldn't be setting a good example. People probably know the person was no good and want to know the other board members are intelligent enough to see through the facade. If they think the entire board is fake or naive they may not want to serve or participate in the future (they may give up or become apathetic).

In my HOA, there isn't enough interest among the HOs to be concerned about whether a person is "no good" or whether the other members are "intelligent enough" - again, very subjective measures that you can never reach consensus on.

Dislike for a board member is typically the result of a dislike for someone's personality, a prior personal confrontation, or a belief that that board member was responsible for a particular decision that the HO didn't like. Highly subjective and IMO not a basis for assessing the quality of a board member's value to the community.

From personal experience. We had a board member, who didn't show for board meetings even when they were scheduled to be at his house. Never actively engaged when we made a policy decision, but first to complain to the MC when that policy affected him in a way that he didn't like. We asked him to step down - not for his failures as a BOD member - but as we put it to him, because he was so involved in his other activities that he didn't have time for the HOA. We asked him to stay on until we found a replacement. He did. We thanked him publicly for his service without anyone other than the board knowing that he was a dud as a board member. Everyone saved face. Important for 2 reasons: First, there are people in the community who still look to him for advice - closing the book on good terms was important if we didn't want him putting out bad vibes on the HO-HOA relationship. Second, we never have people in the wings ready to step up and become board members. We go out of our way not to create the impression that anyone is unappreciated or unwanted.

Quote:

Posted By AmandaR2 on 12/31/2014 8:51 AM
To me the most difficult board the deal with would be the one that is not sincere yet is very good at covering up that fact. In other words a manipulative board would be the most difficult to deal with because they are professional con artists, very good at selling themselves and their own agenda.

I'm not sure what your agenda is Amanda. But until you have sat in a board seat and defended the decisions of a prior board because it was the right thing to do even though you disagreed with that decision personally, then IMO you lack the real world experience it takes to work through these tough issues and come up with a subjective-objective measurement system.

Tim is a class act. His military and engineering background and his personal value systems steers him in the direction of methodical and objective thinking on just about every issue. When he speaks, I never question his motives - not because his motives are pure or unpure (I don't know) - but because he doesn't let his personal biases influence what he is saying - and he has done a great deal to improve the content on this forum. While I don't aspire to be like Tim, I have learned from him. So thank you Tim and everyone else who brings value to this forum. I for one appreciate the diversity, thoughtfulness, and playfulness.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Nps, you have become very offended. My comments were simply my opinion. I was referring to my feelings of what the most difficult board I have personally dealt with. You have referred to your own board. We have different backgrounds. The original question posted was "What is the most difficult boards to deal with?". I have served on a board for several years, along with serving on various commitees. I have lived in 4 HOA communities. They have all been very different than each other. I resent you questioning my integrity and motives. I have not posted here until recently, I thought differing opinions were welcome.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Again, Amanda, welcome to the forum. I'm sure we'll all learn from your experiences. Generally, btw, NpS is a solid contributor.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 12/29/2014 4:04 PM
As in any other association, an HOA board is made up of different individuals with different skills. And while I think that the professional/professionalism discussion is interesting, it doesn't really capture what I am looking for in a fellow BOD member.

I am looking for a mix of individuals who, as a group, can fulfill the following responsibilities (with the exception of the last 2 on my list).

1. Old Soul - Someone with a desire to maintain the traditions of the community.
2. Visionary - Someone who can set the agenda for where the HOA needs to be financially in 3-5 years.
3. Public Face - Someone with the poise and personality to deliver the good news and the bad news.
4. Contract Manager - Someone who can set priorities for vendor relations.
5. Recruiter/Activist - Someone who can motivate others to take action.
6. Bean Counter - Someone who can set priorities for financial operations and controls.
7. Geek - Someone who can set priorities for implementing technology.
8. Hard Ass - Someone who doesn't want to spend any amount for any purpose.
9. Newbie - Someone who is willing to devote the time and energy to learn the ropes.

X. Empty Suit - What the rest of us get stuck with when no one steps up.
Y. Road Hog - What the rest of us cope with when one person seeks to dominate the agenda.

Every BOD member in my HOA doesn't need all skills. For example, among our 5 directors, we may have only 2 with the poise and personality to present our Public Face - the other 3 can be annoying PITAs as long as they can deliver other needed skills (where a Public Face may not be that important) and don't become Empty Suits or Road Hogs.

IMO, these attributes tell much more about us than our official titles (Prez, VP, Treas, and Secy) or our professional/non-professional training, experience, preferences, and blind spots.

Since you've given your honest opinion of my comments, IMO you remind me of one of the board members I had to deal with. You seem to have what YOU are looking for first and foremost in your mind, your agenda. Your "labels" seem VERY judgmental IMO. If I were on your board and I knew you had this type of plan or method of summing people up I would be very offended. I have never seen anything quite like it.

AmandaR2 (South Carolina)
Posts: 566

Posted:

Thank you, Kerry. Not sure I'll be here long.

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