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What constitutes a "motor vehicle"?

Started by RonW7 • 35 replies • 2676 views

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RonW7 (Ohio)
Posts: 122
Posted:
Looking into revising community guidelines to only permit motor vehicles to be parked on the grounds. I was reading some resources that defined a motor vehicle as self-propelled and able to be operated on a public roadway. However, this also fits the definition of motor home. Essentially, we only want to permits cars, trucks, SUVs, etc. No motor homes, trailers, boats, ATVs, jet skis, etc. How do we use clear wording that permits only motor vehicles with exception to motor homes?
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Ron,

This topic always generates a heated debate on this forum. The problem is invariably that the declaration uses a generic term without any further definition or clarification. As you have already discovered, "motor vehicle" is an indefinite term that includes Honda Civics, Peterbilt cab-over tractors, and Winnebago motor homes. The term would also disallow parking bicycles.

What problem are you having with parking that is worth causing a civil war among your owners?

In case you think there will be no issues, watch the space below.
RonW7 (Ohio)
Posts: 122
Posted:
We had one resident park his huge boat in the overflow during the spring/summer months for about three years. We advised that, come 2015, he will no longer be permitted to park his boat on common property. We're drafting new community rules now and I want to use comprehensive terminology that clearly identifies automobiles and motorcycles as the only type of vehicle that is permitted to be parked on common property. If I have to, I'll even include a provision for bicycles... and pogo sticks... followed by stilts...
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
You need to carefully define what is allowed and not allowed. I do not believe that your definition needs to agree with a definition found elsewhere (i.e., what the state considers a motor vehicle for licensing purposes). You need text like "for the purposes of this rule, allowed motor vehicles include... and exclude...."

I suppose the easiest way to exclude motor homes is by size.

This won't completely stop quibbling but a clearly written definition will help a lot.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
A couple of other related issues:

In a condo, the common areas are owned by the owners and not the association. The association likely has no authority to control the use of the owners' property by creating a rule. Controlling the use of the property would require an amendment to the recorded declaration.

If the declaration is amended, would the amendment be binding upon those who purchased property prior to the adoption of the amendment?

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Ron, I'm going to add to the challenges you are facing in what you wish to do.

Our CC&R's specifically state what can, and cannot, be parked within the association. One homeowner parked their RV/motorhome on the street in front of their home. When the property manager approached the homeowner about it, he explained they were preparing for a trip--which takes them 24-72 hours before the trip and up to 24 hours afterward--for cleaning, packing, loading food, etc.

That being the case, the board instructed the PM to just ignore it, unless it exceeded 72 hours. The board decided it would impose unreasonable conditions on the homeowner if they are not allowed to park the coach in front of their home to prepare for a trip; it would be equally unreasonable to expect the homeowner to move it back to the RV storage (about ten miles away) each evening.

We have another homeowner with a boat, same general situation, and same decision on the part of the board.

Since the parties take trips or use the boat about four times annually, it is not an every other week matter. You may wish to consider how you will deal with similar situations
RonW7 (Ohio)
Posts: 122
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 12/14/2014 3:19 PM
A couple of other related issues:

In a condo, the common areas are owned by the owners and not the association. The association likely has no authority to control the use of the owners' property by creating a rule. Controlling the use of the property would require an amendment to the recorded declaration.

If the declaration is amended, would the amendment be binding upon those who purchased property prior to the adoption of the amendment?


If an amendment to the declaration were required, this would really stand in the way of many other guidelines. For example, we are also considering rules to prevent owners from letting their pets run freely on common property without a leash or allowing their animals to make log entries all over the common property without being required to clean it up. Since that patch of grass is owned by the members, only the majority can say whether or not common property can be used as a giant litter box that doesn't require clean-up. Also, what about mini-pools or Slip N Slides? Since the association doesn't own the commons, the owners will have to vote to disallow such things.

In order to amend the declaration, a 75% vote is required which just wouldn't happen. This would make a great opportunity for the community trolls to come out and find new ways to annoy the association knowing that no enforcement action can be taken because the governing documents couldn't get the votes required for amendment.

If amended, it would apply immediately. We don't have anyone storing rec vehicles on the property right now, but the individual in question usually stores it here in spring and summer.
RonW7 (Ohio)
Posts: 122
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 12/14/2014 3:36 PM

Our CC&R's specifically state what can, and cannot, be parked within the association. One homeowner parked their RV/motorhome on the street in front of their home. When the property manager approached the homeowner about it, he explained they were preparing for a trip--which takes them 24-72 hours before the trip and up to 24 hours afterward--for cleaning, packing, loading food, etc.

This is a good point, and I will make the appropriate amendments to the current version we're working on.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonW7 on 12/14/2014 3:55 PM
Posted By BillH10 on 12/14/2014 3:36 PM

Our CC&R's specifically state what can, and cannot, be parked within the association. One homeowner parked their RV/motorhome on the street in front of their home. When the property manager approached the homeowner about it, he explained they were preparing for a trip--which takes them 24-72 hours before the trip and up to 24 hours afterward--for cleaning, packing, loading food, etc.


This is a good point, and I will make the appropriate amendments to the current version we're working on.

Don't forget you can only define parking restrictions to the sides and front of the houses, most states will allow parking them in the backyards in their zoning limitations. HOA's can alter but not remove the land owners rights. That is unless you already had that clause and 100% agreed to it before their bought into a HOA, You can't just decide well were not going to allow and redesign a Contract that now after the fact.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesO6 on 12/14/2014 5:49 PM
Posted By RonW7 on 12/14/2014 3:55 PM
Posted By BillH10 on 12/14/2014 3:36 PM

Our CC&R's specifically state what can, and cannot, be parked within the association. One homeowner parked their RV/motorhome on the street in front of their home. When the property manager approached the homeowner about it, he explained they were preparing for a trip--which takes them 24-72 hours before the trip and up to 24 hours afterward--for cleaning, packing, loading food, etc.


This is a good point, and I will make the appropriate amendments to the current version we're working on.


Don't forget you can only define parking restrictions to the sides and front of the houses, most states will allow parking them in the backyards in their zoning limitations. HOA's can alter but not remove the land owners rights. That is unless you already had that clause and 100% agreed to it before their bought into a HOA, You can't just decide well were not going to allow and redesign a Contract that now after the fact.

Our deed restriction pretty much follows the city zoning requirements no parking recreational vehicles in the streets or sides of houses or in driveways, doesn't state backyards. if most HOA's follows the city codes enforcement might have a hard time telling a Judge your interpitation of the law is even if you wrote it.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Ron here is what the Covenant for our COA written in the 90's allows:

Parking. No part of the Common or Limited Common Elements shall be used for parking of any trailer, truck, boat, or anything other than operative automobiles and motorcycles. The word “trailer” shall include trailer coach, house trailer, mobile home, auto-mobile trailer, campcar, camper or any other vehicle, whether or not self-propelled, constructed or existing in such manner as would permit the use and occupancy thereof for human habitation, for storage, or the conveyance of machinery, tools or equipment whether resting on wheels, jacks, tires or other foundation. The word “truck” shall include and mean every type of motor vehicle other than passenger cars and other than any pickup truck which is used as the auto-mobile vehicle by a family member occupying one of said Units. No covering or walling in of uncovered parking space shall be permitted. Guests, licensees and invitees shall be permitted to park on paved Common Elements designated for such use only to the extent that it shall not obstruct traffic flow or unreasonably inconvenience other Unit Owners.
Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Remember your rules are to exceed local laws... Most of the time your local area has leash laws in place. Our area you have to keep your dog on a leash. Which the local animal control is responsible for enforcing. I don't think a neighbor or HOA board member should have the authority to act as the "police" if the issue is an actual existing law handled by the police.

Don't like the dogs pooing in an area, then put down some dog repellant in the area with a sign saying that dog repellent is in use. It's like $10 a bag and is easily spread. Only have to do it a few times until people complain about it too much or get the hint to NOT use that area. I designated an area by the dumpsters for dogs to go in. It was because not all dog feces can be picked up if it's runny... Plus not any houses in the area to be bothered by the act. Overall, don't think this rule is really enforceable.

Keep in mind that most states do NOT allow fines to be the basis of liens. They can not be basis of foreclosure. So be careful in instituting a fining system. A HOA can fine but they lack definition. Which means you need to make up a "fining schedule" for violators. It also has to be legal and match State laws. You have to say "$25 per X violation up to $500" for example. Each owner has to be notified what qualifies as a violation and the fine which they face.

Unfortunately, you do have to follow the modification rules of your CC&R's to properly enforce. It's not a fun, easy, fast, or cheap process. It took us almost 3 years and about 3K in legal expenses. That was for 5 changes including removing the developer's references. It is a good thing to update your documents every few years due to lifestyle or technology changes. Just realize it's part of the hard work you have to do for the HOA. A HOA is run by it's members for it's members. You all make up the rules you want to live under or enforce.
Former HOA President
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
Many 'mini-vans' are DOT classified as {light truck}

Check the door sticker if you disbelieve.

Welcome to the legal circus.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> Many 'mini-vans' are DOT classified as {light truck} [Smile]

Doesn't MATTER what DOT calls it

GlenL's language would have the desired (reasonable) result.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Ron

In one HOA we had issues with what constitutes a commercial vehicle. Two identical soccer Mom vans. One had a sign saying So and SO Airport Shuttle and a phone number. We ruled it a commercial vehicle.

I know of another HOA where a small automobile had one of these banner wrap signs on it. I say commercial.

The big stuff like motor homes, trailers, boats, etc. are easy to define. The type vehicles that can be both commercial and a private vehicle will be the cumbersome ones.

Is a Ford 150 with ladder racks a commercial vehicle versus my F150 with no signs nor racks on it?

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonW7 on 12/14/2014 12:41 PM
Looking into revising community guidelines to only permit motor vehicles to be parked on the grounds. I was reading some resources that defined a motor vehicle as self-propelled and able to be operated on a public roadway. However, this also fits the definition of motor home. Essentially, we only want to permits cars, trucks, SUVs, etc. No motor homes, trailers, boats, ATVs, jet skis, etc. How do we use clear wording that permits only motor vehicles with exception to motor homes?

Our HOA documents specifically eliminate Recreational Vehicles parked on lot or driveway for more than X hours (to allow for loading and unloading or minor maintenance). My HOA does not monitor street parking as the streets are owned and maintained by the City and are not private HOA property. You need to be sure to look at the definition of "Common Interest Property" in your state. In my state if you do not own and maintain the property via your HOA assessments, then you should not regulate. The state of NV had a royal issue with HOA's foreclosing on owners regarding street parking that they now have State Laws banning HOA's from regulating or fining for street parking if the HOA does not own and have ability to regulate.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Just want to clarify can park an RV on lot if behind 6 foot privacy fence; however most lots with homes in my subdivision do not have the room to allow for this provision.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/15/2014 9:15 AM
Ron

In one HOA we had issues with what constitutes a commercial vehicle. Two identical soccer Mom vans. One had a sign saying So and SO Airport Shuttle and a phone number. We ruled it a commercial vehicle.

I know of another HOA where a small automobile had one of these banner wrap signs on it. I say commercial.

The big stuff like motor homes, trailers, boats, etc. are easy to define. The type vehicles that can be both commercial and a private vehicle will be the cumbersome ones.

Is a Ford 150 with ladder racks a commercial vehicle versus my F150 with no signs nor racks on it?


Commercial Vehicles in Ohio are easy to find, their first letter starts with a letter P except vanity plates, you can get around that buy just having a privately owned vehicle for your business. but I can see there might be a problem if one lot owner hauls junk around for a living and some monster ugly truck is parked in front of a mansion in a HOA community.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/15/2014 9:15 AM
Ron

In one HOA we had issues with what constitutes a commercial vehicle. Two identical soccer Mom vans. One had a sign saying So and SO Airport Shuttle and a phone number. We ruled it a commercial vehicle.

I know of another HOA where a small automobile had one of these banner wrap signs on it. I say commercial.

The big stuff like motor homes, trailers, boats, etc. are easy to define. The type vehicles that can be both commercial and a private vehicle will be the cumbersome ones.

Is a Ford 150 with ladder racks a commercial vehicle versus my F150 with no signs nor racks on it?


Commercial Vehicles in Ohio are easy to find, their first letter starts with a letter P except vanity plates, you can get around that buy just having a privately owned vehicle for your business. but I can see there might be a problem if one lot owner hauls junk around for a living and some monster ugly truck is parked in front of a mansion in a HOA community.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
motor vehicle = a vehicle with an attached motor to propel same, this includes electric skateboards, mopeds, golf carts, etc

commercial vehicle = a vehicle used for commerce, this would include a pedal driven ice cream cart
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 12/20/2014 11:43 AM
motor vehicle = a vehicle with an attached motor to propel same, this includes electric skateboards, mopeds, golf carts, etc

commercial vehicle = a vehicle used for commerce, this would include a pedal driven ice cream cart

John
Your def of commercial vehicle is IMO too weak to be used. The same exact vehicle can be for private use, commercial use, or mixed. Impossible to administer without huge blowback.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DarleneN
Posts: 25
Posted:


I retyped our R&R this year. Here is a portion of how ours now reads. Put a 'good' explanation in the wording and it sure saves problems. Sorry for the formatting but it didn't copy the way it reads on paper.

f. Acceptable Vehicles. Parking on the property is limited to acceptable vehicles which include any conventional passenger vehicle, motorcycle, non-commercial-use truck or van registered as a pleasure vehicle with a load capacity of under 10,000 lbs. gross vehicle weight. All acceptable vehicles are subject to the same rules.

g. Restricted Vehicles. Vehicles which are not in operating condition, or which because of mechanical or other defect (i.e. broken windows, flat tires, leaking gas or oil, open trunk, rust, severe body damage, loud or missing muffler, unlicensed, etc.) may not be parked on the premises. If a vehicle is in such a condition that it cannot be legally operated on State of Wisconsin roads, it may not be parked on Park Place property for more than (2) two days.

No trailers, RVs, boats, snowmobiles, mobile homes, campers, recreational vehicles, trucks or vans rated above one (1) ton or any commercial vehicle, car, truck, or other vehicle with advertising viewable on the outside. Service vehicles and moving vans (during a move) may park for no longer than 48 hours.

k. Vehicle Definitions

(1) Commercial Vehicle: Any vehicle including vans used for commercial use and vehicles displaying commercial signage of any type, excluding vehicles of a governmental agency, police, or other emergency vehicles.
(2) Truck: A truck is a vehicle with a load capacity of greater than one (1) ton and/or meeting either of the following conditions: Having more than two (2) axles, and/or having more than four (4) wheels.
(3) Trailer: A trailer is any vehicle which is drawn by another vehicle having motive power but is incapable of motive power by itself.
(4) Mobile Home: A mobile home is a vehicle having its own motive power outfitted as a traveling home.
(5) Camp Truck: A camper truck is any self-propelled camper.
(6) House Trailer: A house trailer is any vehicle drawn by a car or truck and is used as a temporary or permanent dwelling.
(7) Recreational Vehicle: Any vehicle not used for normal transportation on public roads such as jet skis, four-wheelers, three-wheelers, all-terrain vehicles, go-carts, mini-bikes, and water bikes.
(8) Boat: Self-explanatory.
(9) Boat Trailer: Same as trailer.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
NpS;

precisely my point



us HOAers need to retreat from our power trip(s)

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DarleneN on 12/20/2014 8:57 PM

I retyped our R&R this year. Here is a portion of how ours now reads. Put a 'good' explanation in the wording and it sure saves problems. Sorry for the formatting but it didn't copy the way it reads on paper.

f. Acceptable Vehicles. Parking on the property is limited to acceptable vehicles which include any conventional passenger vehicle, motorcycle, non-commercial-use truck or van registered as a pleasure vehicle with a load capacity of under 10,000 lbs. gross vehicle weight. All acceptable vehicles are subject to the same rules.

g. Restricted Vehicles. Vehicles which are not in operating condition, or which because of mechanical or other defect (i.e. broken windows, flat tires, leaking gas or oil, open trunk, rust, severe body damage, loud or missing muffler, unlicensed, etc.) may not be parked on the premises. If a vehicle is in such a condition that it cannot be legally operated on State of Wisconsin roads, it may not be parked on Park Place property for more than (2) two days.

No trailers, RVs, boats, snowmobiles, mobile homes, campers, recreational vehicles,trucks or vans rated above one (1) ton or any commercial vehicle, car, truck, or other vehicle with advertising viewable on the outside. Service vehicles and moving vans (during a move) may park for no longer than 48 hours.

k. Vehicle Definitions

(1) Commercial Vehicle: Any vehicle including vans used for commercial use and vehicles displaying commercial signage of any type, excluding vehicles of a governmental agency, police, or other emergency vehicles.
(2) Truck: A truck is a vehicle with a load capacity of greater than one (1) ton and/or meeting either of the following conditions: Having more than two (2) axles, and/or having more than four (4) wheels.
(3) Trailer: A trailer is any vehicle which is drawn by another vehicle having motive power but is incapable of motive power by itself.
(4) Mobile Home: A mobile home is a vehicle having its own motive power outfitted as a traveling home.
(5) Camp Truck: A camper truck is any self-propelled camper.
(6) House Trailer: A house trailer is any vehicle drawn by a car or truck and is used as a temporary or permanent dwelling.
(7) Recreational Vehicle: Any vehicle not used for normal transportation on public roads such as jet skis, four-wheelers, three-wheelers, all-terrain vehicles, go-carts, mini-bikes, and water bikes.
(8) Boat: Self-explanatory.
(9) Boat Trailer: Same as trailer.


f and g are contradictory therefor unenforceable w/o a legal battle
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Darlene

The attached is my personal use vehicle:

http://www.ford.com/trucks/superduty/trim/f450xl/?ef_id=VFKPGQAABOy8itqj:20141220203052:s&searchid=237013609|1410213190|78016304762

It violates your more then 4 wheels. Maybe I can get Ford to chip in when as an owner, I might just sue you.

I think this is the point some are making. The more you define, the more you leave yourself open.
DarleneN
Posts: 25
Posted:

Yep, I guess you'd be suing us if that was your first thought. Fortunately, we don't have owners who run or call a lawyer before asking simple questions. Our rules bend and get changed as necessary. Obviously, this would be one example. We are a friendly get-along association. Owners here don't complain much at all. For example boats are not allowed yet you will find many garages with large boats parked in them. No complaints because they are out of view. The good news for you would be that your very nice truck would fit so easily in our humungous garages. They are super sized.

Where we ran into major parking trouble was when the final building was recently completed with a new developer and 99% rented because of the RE market. That developer told the new renters anything they wanted to hear, they did not bother to read the R&R and we had huge problems with boats, trailers, RV's. Some were shocked to find out later that condo associations actually have rules to follow and live with.

At the time, or R&R did not go into detail on much of anything. Ergo, it was retyped without changes but expanded explanations. There were no complaints when everyone got the new version.

Maybe I should just read in these forums because I myself am shaking my head at so many posts and the ridged rules and suing and demands. It's nothing like that here.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
Our rules bend and get changed as necessary.


Then they are, by definition, arbitrary and capricious.

in other words

Unenforceable in a court of law.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
My vehicle of choice if my HOA 'hassled' me:

http://www.karldirect.com/sites/default/files/proto-humvee.jpg

Canary Yellow, of course
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
Y'all need to careful. Very very careful.

No attorney required.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnB26 on 12/22/2014 10:42 AM
My vehicle of choice if my HOA 'hassled' me:

http://www.karldirect.com/sites/default/files/proto-humvee.jpg

Canary Yellow, of course

Sissy. It only has 4 wheels.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
...but it has an automatic weapons mount available
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
To accurately quote:

Peace on Earth to All Men of Good Will
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
on a serious note:

http://www.hiwtc.com/photo/products/3/08/38/83861.jpg

food for thought

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