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RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173
Posted:
I know you can have an HOA without common space. Can you have common space without an HOA?
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RayC4 on 12/10/2014 7:02 AM
I know you can have an HOA without common space. Can you have common space without an HOA?

That is what it is where I live. Not really an HOA but a nonprofit corporation to manage our sanitary sewer system and recreational ponds. The covenants expired because in Iowa there is a 21 year time limit to preserve. No preservation of the covenants was done so no HOA. I refer to it as an HOA because its structure is basically like an HOA. There is a BOD that is elected and the members are property owners in the development. We all pay dues and assessments and there is a set of bylaws. The rules only relate to the operation and maintenance of the sanitary sewer. The State of Iowa refers to it as a common interest community.
EmmaH1
Posts: 674
Posted:
I have a friend who lives in a 12 lot subdivision, (11 homes) one lot belonging to original developer ( it never sold very odd shaped lot). They have lived there for 8 years with no HOA. The common area, is simply entrance sign/grass, no amenities, still in developers name, they have not formed a HOA, they do not plan to ever. All of the 11 owners agree they do not want one, they are very happy there, no fighting between each other. In the future eventually they will have some decisions to make if and when the Developer wants to unload the common area to them as far as having to come together for insurance etc;. Right now they all take turns with the landscape duties. It works for them.
RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173
Posted:
BanksS, interesting, as we are looking at this set-up (for different reasons than your community). Without any covenants are there deed restriction that commits the homeowner to payment of these assessments? (i.e. what is the enforcement mechanism - turn off their water?)
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Ray,

One of the most common elements are roads. There is a body of common law that holds that those who use a road must share in the costs of its upkeep. One could justify having a formal association to maintain the roads because the alternative is owners bickering among themselves as to who should pay how much.

I have not encountered any court opinions on the subject of parks or swimming pools but I suspect that there are decisions with similar results. That is, if it is commonly owned then all owners must contribute to the maintenance of the element. Again, the value of an association would be to control what otherwise would be chaos.

BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RayC4 on 12/10/2014 11:02 AM
BanksS, interesting, as we are looking at this set-up (for different reasons than your community). Without any covenants are there deed restriction that commits the homeowner to payment of these assessments? (i.e. what is the enforcement mechanism - turn off their water?)

The enforcement mechanism is small claims court. The HOA files small claims against owners not paying. There is one owner that hasn't paid in years. The HOA won the small claims case by default because the owner didn't show up. I'm not sure how the BOD is proceeding now. Perhaps wage garnishment but I don't know for sure.

It is not possible for the HOA to disconnect the delinquent owners sewer connection. The Iowa Department of Natural Resources prohibits this.

To address your first question, I believe that if an owner is using the service, than they are lawfully obligated to pay. However, there was a recent Iowa Supreme Court case where the Court ruled that if the covenants have expired so goes the obligation to pay assessments. It was for road maintenance. But then the Iowa legislature created a law that requires a homeowner to pay for the common elements even if the covenants have expired.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 12/10/2014 11:06 AM
Ray,

One of the most common elements are roads. There is a body of common law that holds that those who use a road must share in the costs of its upkeep. One could justify having a formal association to maintain the roads because the alternative is owners bickering among themselves as to who should pay how much.

I have not encountered any court opinions on the subject of parks or swimming pools but I suspect that there are decisions with similar results. That is, if it is commonly owned then all owners must contribute to the maintenance of the element. Again, the value of an association would be to control what otherwise would be chaos.


Well by that then, everyone in the city needs to contribute for a HOA community roads also then, you have Sanitation trucks weekly access it, you have police patrol, Fire departments, city school bus's, new paper deleivery's, mail trucks, delivery trucks, people looking at houses and the list keeps going on to many to name.

Why should HOA's pay for the street repairs when every swinging tom dick and harry are using them also causing wear and tear, cars don't facture in that much for weight, buses, sanitation trucks, delvery and fire and school buses sure does cause wear and tear.

HOA's should put up a fight if they allowed themselves to be taxed and billed for street repairs, since their paying tax's for that already in gas tax's, city and income taxes. what kind of nitwit would want to pay for common street repairs? Now if the HOA is a Gated community and access is strictly limited, then if they voluntary submited to this dumb ideal then that's their problem when time comes for repair or repaving costs.

Neighborhoods are maintained by the city and county's, keep hearing about HOA's are solely responsible for it, then they shouldn't be taxed but thats impossible, maybe billing the city and sanitation departments and a certain amout for access to those PRIVATE CLUB memberships only pays to maintain.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesO6 on 12/12/2014 5:19 PM

Well by that then, everyone in the city needs to contribute for a HOA community roads also then, you have Sanitation trucks weekly access it, you have police patrol, Fire departments, city school bus's, new paper deleivery's, mail trucks, delivery trucks, people looking at houses and the list keeps going on to many to name.

Why should HOA's pay for the street repairs when every swinging tom dick and harry are using them also causing wear and tear, cars don't facture in that much for weight, buses, sanitation trucks, delvery and fire and school buses sure does cause wear and tear.

HOA's should put up a fight if they allowed themselves to be taxed and billed for street repairs, since their paying tax's for that already in gas tax's, city and income taxes. what kind of nitwit would want to pay for common street repairs? Now if the HOA is a Gated community and access is strictly limited, then if they voluntary submited to this dumb ideal then that's their problem when time comes for repair or repaving costs.

Neighborhoods are maintained by the city and county's, keep hearing about HOA's are solely responsible for it, then they shouldn't be taxed but thats impossible, maybe billing the city and sanitation departments and a certain amout for access to those PRIVATE CLUB memberships only pays to maintain.

Those are valid arguments but if I was on the city council and some pipsqueek HOA tried to bill for maintenance of their private roads my response to them would be, "Haul your own trash, put out your own fires, and catch your own burglars."

The sad reality is that there are many who use private roads that will never contribute a cent toward maintenance.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BanksS on 12/10/2014 7:30 AM
Posted By RayC4 on 12/10/2014 7:02 AM
I know you can have an HOA without common space. Can you have common space without an HOA?


That is what it is where I live. Not really an HOA but a nonprofit corporation to manage our sanitary sewer system and recreational ponds. The covenants expired because in Iowa there is a 21 year time limit to preserve. No preservation of the covenants was done so no HOA. I refer to it as an HOA because its structure is basically like an HOA. There is a BOD that is elected and the members are property owners in the development. We all pay dues and assessments and there is a set of bylaws. The rules only relate to the operation and maintenance of the sanitary sewer. The State of Iowa refers to it as a common interest community.

In most states, Common Interest Community (CIC) is a general heading that covers HOAs, POAs, Condos, & Cooperatives. Saying that you are a CIC doesn't make you different than a HOA because HOAs are also CICs.

Banks,
Since you have dues, a Board, and common area expenses, can you explain what makes your arrangemet different than an HOA?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EmmaH1 on 12/10/2014 7:31 AM
I have a friend who lives in a 12 lot subdivision, (11 homes) one lot belonging to original developer ( it never sold very odd shaped lot). They have lived there for 8 years with no HOA. The common area, is simply entrance sign/grass, no amenities, still in developers name, they have not formed a HOA, they do not plan to ever. All of the 11 owners agree they do not want one, they are very happy there, no fighting between each other. In the future eventually they will have some decisions to make if and when the Developer wants to unload the common area to them as far as having to come together for insurance etc;. Right now they all take turns with the landscape duties. It works for them.

Good luck to your friend but I would urge them to contact their attorney and insurance agent and make sure they are covered in case someone is ever injured on the common element. I'm not an attorney but as I understand it, if someone were injured they could sue each and every homeowner that owns or is supposed to own the common element for their injury. The phrase your friend needs to ask about is jointly and severely meaning the injured party could settle with all of the neighbors for pennies and go after your friend for big bucks. I know it's just a marker and some grass, what could happen? Kid throws a rock, which lands in the grass, helpful fellow homeowner whose turn it is to mow, doesn't see the rock, mower flings rock into passing car and injures someone. Do you just sue the poor schlub whose turn it was to mow or do you go after anyone you can?

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GlenL on 12/12/2014 9:14 PM
Posted By EmmaH1 on 12/10/2014 7:31 AM
I have a friend who lives in a 12 lot subdivision, (11 homes) one lot belonging to original developer ( it never sold very odd shaped lot). They have lived there for 8 years with no HOA. The common area, is simply entrance sign/grass, no amenities, still in developers name, they have not formed a HOA, they do not plan to ever. All of the 11 owners agree they do not want one, they are very happy there, no fighting between each other. In the future eventually they will have some decisions to make if and when the Developer wants to unload the common area to them as far as having to come together for insurance etc;. Right now they all take turns with the landscape duties. It works for them.


Good luck to your friend but I would urge them to contact their attorney and insurance agent and make sure they are covered in case someone is ever injured on the common element. I'm not an attorney but as I understand it, if someone were injured they could sue each and every homeowner that owns or is supposed to own the common element for their injury. The phrase your friend needs to ask about is jointly and severely meaning the injured party could settle with all of the neighbors for pennies and go after your friend for big bucks. I know it's just a marker and some grass, what could happen? Kid throws a rock, which lands in the grass, helpful fellow homeowner whose turn it is to mow, doesn't see the rock, mower flings rock into passing car and injures someone. Do you just sue the poor schlub whose turn it was to mow or do you go after anyone you can?

Should check the common element lot on your county's auditor page and see who's listed s owner and paying the tax's for it, that's who's going to get sued and who's legally responsible for the lot.

Like our neighborhood it's Confucius in the common lots in our section, the HOA pays the taxes on it so guess they own it, but they don't maintain it since they are the only HOA in our community, never did except the city mowed it twice a year before we started mowing it due to keeping the local wild life and rodents and other pests and insects that loves high weeds and grass at bay. as for people getting injured, least they That (HOA) have not noticed the neighbors small child in a ATV barreling around the lot almost every day once towing another kid in a wagon that has a another kid some of sled in tow behind the wagon going bout 30 mph in their common lot. Boy now I can see why HOA's needs insurance for common lots. Just another thing to show either the HOA doesn't care of the common lots or they just don't know they own them, but since their property management is paying the tax's they can't claim ignorance if someone gets injured on it.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 12/12/2014 5:34 PM
Posted By JamesO6 on 12/12/2014 5:19 PM

Well by that then, everyone in the city needs to contribute for a HOA community roads also then, you have Sanitation trucks weekly access it, you have police patrol, Fire departments, city school bus's, new paper deleivery's, mail trucks, delivery trucks, people looking at houses and the list keeps going on to many to name.

Why should HOA's pay for the street repairs when every swinging tom dick and harry are using them also causing wear and tear, cars don't facture in that much for weight, buses, sanitation trucks, delvery and fire and school buses sure does cause wear and tear.

HOA's should put up a fight if they allowed themselves to be taxed and billed for street repairs, since their paying tax's for that already in gas tax's, city and income taxes. what kind of nitwit would want to pay for common street repairs? Now if the HOA is a Gated community and access is strictly limited, then if they voluntary submited to this dumb ideal then that's their problem when time comes for repair or repaving costs.

Neighborhoods are maintained by the city and county's, keep hearing about HOA's are solely responsible for it, then they shouldn't be taxed but thats impossible, maybe billing the city and sanitation departments and a certain amout for access to those PRIVATE CLUB memberships only pays to maintain.


Those are valid arguments but if I was on the city council and some pipsqueek HOA tried to bill for maintenance of their private roads my response to them would be, "Haul your own trash, put out your own fires, and catch your own burglars."

The sad reality is that there are many who use private roads that will never contribute a cent toward maintenance.

How can they be private roads? Private roads must be clearly marked as such.. I can imagine some peed off nut job in a HOA randomly standing in the road way checking to see if the car occupants are legally allowed onto his HOA's private property streets. So that guy also can create havoc also by demanding his neighbors from having guests over because it's wearing down his private property streets and resulting in much earlier repairs.

Also labeling them as private property streets opens a new can of worms for no placed/notice notification this is private property streets and be held liable for damages and breaks ins in cars and holding the HOA for any legal issues, since they should be patrolling the neighborhoods constantly to prevent unauthorized individuals on their private streets.

There is absolutely no benefit listing them as Private Streets none what so ever, unless you want to enforce parking restrictions from people parking commercial vehicles in the neighborhood. yet they get around that easily if the vehicle is Privately owned and parks them there anyways. Even that, how's that restriction can say that the HOA streets are private property? I've combed my community deed restriction and that Valid one that there is a HOA in those other sections and never came across Private Streets anywhere in it.

So I take it, the street I live on is Private streets owned by that HOA in all the others sections, since their in my community after purchasing lands around ours and just assumed our Community name and their responsible for maintaining my street also??? we've been battling that HOA for over a decade now and they loose every time, all we do is ask show us in writing and our signatures acknowledging were in a HOA, they just point at the deed restrictions and we point show us in writings and documents we've signed. they point back at the deed restriction and we point back show us. they usually stop after a couple weeks every time they change property management company's and their lawyers starts it all over again, guess they think they'll wear us down one day. Their last lawyer letter was threatening and funny at the end, By Voluntary joining our HOA community blah blh blh and to sign here to acknowledge your in our HOA. oh wait that wasn't their last lawyer letter, that one was another apology letter for the confusion, once we indicated were seeking legal advice to sue them and that HOA, and got that letter in a few days. HOA's will stone wall and deny everything till you stand your ground and threaten to counter to sue them, only then do they stop harassing our section lot owners.

BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 12/12/2014 5:58 PM
Posted By BanksS on 12/10/2014 7:30 AM
Posted By RayC4 on 12/10/2014 7:02 AM
I know you can have an HOA without common space. Can you have common space without an HOA?


That is what it is where I live. Not really an HOA but a nonprofit corporation to manage our sanitary sewer system and recreational ponds. The covenants expired because in Iowa there is a 21 year time limit to preserve. No preservation of the covenants was done so no HOA. I refer to it as an HOA because its structure is basically like an HOA. There is a BOD that is elected and the members are property owners in the development. We all pay dues and assessments and there is a set of bylaws. The rules only relate to the operation and maintenance of the sanitary sewer. The State of Iowa refers to it as a common interest community.


In most states, Common Interest Community (CIC) is a general heading that covers HOAs, POAs, Condos, & Cooperatives. Saying that you are a CIC doesn't make you different than a HOA because HOAs are also CICs.

Banks,
Since you have dues, a Board, and common area expenses, can you explain what makes your arrangemet different than an HOA?

As Emma said there are no covenants. The BOD has made it very clear that it is not an HOA. One board member told me that what we have is a "sewer corporation."

To answer Emma's question, I prefer no covenants. I live in a lake community in the country. There are about 25 homes in the development. I characterize it as a casual lake community. Some of the homes are vacation homes. I'm not particularly fussy. Most of my neighbors keep their properties well-maintained as do I. There are several little developments around the lake similar to mine. Our county has some pretty rigid building codes.

I know that CIC include HOAs but in Iowa it also includes developments like mine. There are several developments in my area in the same predicament as me, common elements but expired covenants.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EmmaH1 on 12/10/2014 7:31 AM
I have a friend who lives in a 12 lot subdivision, (11 homes) one lot belonging to original developer ( it never sold very odd shaped lot). They have lived there for 8 years with no HOA. The common area, is simply entrance sign/grass, no amenities, still in developers name, they have not formed a HOA, they do not plan to ever. All of the 11 owners agree they do not want one, they are very happy there, no fighting between each other. In the future eventually they will have some decisions to make if and when the Developer wants to unload the common area to them as far as having to come together for insurance etc;. Right now they all take turns with the landscape duties. It works for them.

Without an association, if the developer wishes to unload the entry he would have to find someone willing to accept it. One cannot foist his property off onto unwilling recipients. Whoever accepts the property will be responsible for insurance, taxes, and other expenses. Those who do not accept the property will have no liability.

I have seen situations like this before where the property is abandoned from the standpoint that no one pays taxes on it. The county assessor then tries to sell it under a tax lien but there is no commercial value so no makes an offer. It will just sit there as abandoned property for the rest of eternity. If the county does not maintain it no one is likely to object if some homeowner mows the weeds and keeps the entry clean without a formal agreement. That sounds like what they do now.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The moderator here is not a poster. Atleast not one I know of. If they are I want them to know they do an excellent job and has our respect. They have always been fair and listen. Thank you.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am pretty sure they do own the site.... Just sayin...

Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/13/2014 1:46 PM
The moderator here is not a poster. Atleast not one I know of. If they are I want them to know they do an excellent job and has our respect. They have always been fair and listen. Thank you.

???

Melissa, I don't understand your post, well, the post is clear. I don't understand why you posted it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Sorry for my post confusion. Emma had been posting and had attacked the moderator of this site. She accused them of being a "poster" spying on her after her posts started disappearing. She then said that they did not own this site. Which I was correcting that they most likely did own this site and they are awesome moderators. I do not believe they are posters on this site. As we know they have their own "handle" and can tell when they post something.

I think we should all say thank you to the moderators for doing their job and Merry Christmas!!!

Former HOA President

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