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revisiting owners rights to know

Started by JC3 • 18 replies • 1594 views

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JC3
Posts: 290
Posted:
We do have a website. There is very little information on it, either the public or the private sections. I think there should be a lot more, including meeting agendas, cc&rs, even bylaws and new information. The given reason it's not published is because no one has asked about anything, even articles in the newsletter. I think it should be readily available to all homeowners, without having to identify themselves and ask.
Are websites expensive? How does that work? Is cost based on size or what? Could money/cost be the reason they don't want to put this information on the web? Is it power and control? Could it be time? Does it take a long time to put things on?
The more I think about it, they want to have the information and dole it out if they think a person is worthy.
hoatalk (California)
Posts: 603
Posted:
Cost and services vary by provider. HOATalk's Community123.com service is priced on community size, but is only a few hundred dollars per year regardless. Other providers charge more and some charge less.

So, it's not expensive and it's very easy to update with our service. However, it can be difficult to update with traditional websites where a volunteer must use special software to udpate the site. With our service, you can post a document in 2-3 minutes. Using Frontpage, Dreamweaver or some other traditional software, adding a document will take longer and require special skills.

It could be that your Board doesn't have an easy way to update your current site. I know some communities where only one person can do it and it's not easy, so less gets published.
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KevinK5 (California)
Posts: 64
Posted:
I cannot personally vouch for Community123, but unless you have a person who is knowledgeable in administering websites, the HOA rules, and privacy issues, you would be best to go with a service such as Community123.
If all you are going to do is something really simple such as post your neighborhood documents and meeting notices, you can do it yourself on a free personal site. If you put anything more on the web site, you should make sure you are doing it properly. An example is that anything that includes meeting minutes, names, etc should be on password protected pages. Your HOA internal workings should be considered private matters and not open to the public. Remember that anyone in the world can also see the information, including those who wish harm to your residents and association.
Fees for a web site with proper registration and reliable hosting will cost about $10 per month not counting the initial setup. This is assuming you have someone to maintain the information for free.
I am not an expert, but I have done several websites and maintain them.
Kevin
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JC3 on 05/04/2007 8:06 AM
We do have a website. There is very little information on it, either the public or the private sections. I think there should be a lot more, including meeting agendas, cc&rs, even bylaws and new information. The given reason it's not published is because no one has asked about anything, even articles in the newsletter. I think it should be readily available to all homeowners, without having to identify themselves and ask.
Are websites expensive? How does that work? Is cost based on size or what? Could money/cost be the reason they don't want to put this information on the web? Is it power and control? Could it be time? Does it take a long time to put things on?
The more I think about it, they want to have the information and dole it out if they think a person is worthy.

A website is far from the only way to distribute information. And as someone else pointed out, anyone in the world can visit a website so it's important not to publish certain information.

You should already have copies of the the CC&Rs and bylaws. If you don't just ask one of the board members. Want meeting agendas, same thing, ask. Really want to get in the know? Volunteer for a committee or run for office.

Are websites expensive? You've already been given some indication by others. Ours is $20.00 per year but there are some limitations and I designed and maintain it on a volunteer basis. As in life, you get what you pay for. Look at the forum sponsor's sites.

Are the members willing to pay the cost of a website? Maybe so, maybe not. Would they use the Internet to find information? Do they even own computers? Many people still do not.

Ron
SC
KevinK5 (California)
Posts: 64
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonaldW on 05/05/2007 10:35 AM

Would they use the Internet to find information? Do they even own computers? Many people still do not.

This is an excellent point Ron. We still only have about 2/3 of our owners on email distribution. I believe more than that have computers, but the computers are probably used more by their children than by the homeowners. As an engineer I know that web sites and email are the fastest, most up-to-date methods of dispensing information. For me paper is obsolete, but many others depend on it.
We can't rely on web sites to do it all.
DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Website are a growing service of HOAs. The problem is getting HOA board members educated on the power of the website. But some (mine included) does not like the idea of having information on the web. I guess they feel they are giving up power. Besides... Property Management Companies can't charge for making copies!
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Dale,

Thought I was the village idiot when I visited our MC "hosted" site with our gov doc's, and they were all print protected... smile.
DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By Jadedone4 on 05/06/2007 1:25 PM
Dale,

Thought I was the village idiot when I visited our MC "hosted" site with our gov doc's, and they were all print protected... smile.

NOPE not an idiot! A sucker! I'm one! Some Property Management Companies make a lot of money off HOAs just doing little things like making copies. And they can charge whatever they want. All the information I have gathered for my website has been public information. And now the BOD are upset and threaten me!
HaroldS1 (Arizona)
Posts: 314
Posted:
Some Property Management Companies make a lot of money off HOAs just doing little things like making copies. And they can charge whatever they want.>>>> Not in Arizona. They are limited to 15 cents a page by statue. Check your state laws. Harold
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By Jadedone4 on 05/06/2007 1:25 PM
Dale,

Thought I was the village idiot when I visited our MC "hosted" site with our gov doc's, and they were all print protected... smile.

Print protected in what way?

It would be unwise to post association documents in a format that can be downloaded, edited, and printed (MS Word, for example). Someone could download, change, and print the documents and present them as originals.

Again, print protected in what way? I'm curious.
Ron
SC
KevinK5 (California)
Posts: 64
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonaldW on 05/06/2007 2:57 PM

Print protected in what way?

It would be unwise to post association documents in a format that can be downloaded, edited, and printed (MS Word, for example). Someone could download, change, and print the documents and present them as originals.

Again, print protected in what way? I'm curious.

I believe Adobe allows creation of pdfs so they cannot be downloaded, saved, or printed. There are also download protections you can put into the web-page. But you can still do a screen print if you need a particular passage.
Our documents are not print or download protected, but most of them are scanned images (pictures of text) and not editable text. If someone wants to change them they have to retype the whole thing. The originals are on file with the county so it doesn't make much sense to create forgeries that can be proved false so easily.
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Kevin, you are correct our doc's are in PDF format, under Adobe. You can download to computer, but they are still not printable (unsure if I am doing something incorrectly, but when you try to print, you get an error message along the lines of not authorized to print, or use this function). I am aware that Adobe has a program (some reason "Adobe Writer" is jumping out at me, but not sure the exact name), where you can change doc's in PDF format. And YES, MC does have a (credit card number can be taken) part of their site where you can "order" copies of gov doc's. I have since requested that the MC remove the print blocks from our doc's.
DaleH (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Adobe PDF documents can be locked with passwords and such. They can be very secure. Websites can be programmed to not allow downloading or copying. The downloadable information on my site has that protection on documents when needed. Even if they don't have the documents they can always create one and try to pass it off. To suggest that websites documents are easily change is just not completely true.
JM2 (Oregon)
Posts: 439
Posted:
Hi Jadedone:

Try the "save a copy" function on Acrobat Reader and see if that helps?

JPM
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
If you don't mind spending $80.00 or so, there are programs available to convert PDF documents to editable text which can then be printed.

I don't understand why any HOA would want to prevent members from downloading and printing association documents, especially CC&Rs and bylaws. Compliance should be higher if the "rules" are available to members.
Ron
SC
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Ron,

As the HOA President I have NO issues with the availability of gov doc's to membership - I welcome it, with the expectation (praying here) that if they have copies then they can take the time to read and fully understand them.

The issue is that the MC has a pay for copies link on their site, which houses our documents (the above mentioned print protected issue). While all members (this is a "should have" comment) recieved copies with settlement paperwork, at closing - we all know that sometimes things are misplaced/lost. My position is that every document from minutes to gov doc's should be readily available to membership (we have to use a password ID to access the site - so it is protected from non-members). The HOA pays a fee each month to support the site, therefore, the members should have full access to everything posted. I fully understand the need for photocopying charges (MC would have to have an employee research the requested doc's, photocopy, pay for paper and postage to send). However this is site where members can securely log-in, access the documents, and print/save at costs only to them (provided the print protects were removed).
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By Jadedone4 on 05/08/2007 5:50 AM
Ron,

As the HOA President I have NO issues with the availability of gov doc's to membership - I welcome it, with the expectation (praying here) that if they have copies then they can take the time to read and fully understand them.

The issue is that the MC has a pay for copies link on their site, which houses our documents (the above mentioned print protected issue). While all members (this is a "should have" comment) recieved copies with settlement paperwork, at closing - we all know that sometimes things are misplaced/lost. My position is that every document from minutes to gov doc's should be readily available to membership (we have to use a password ID to access the site - so it is protected from non-members). The HOA pays a fee each month to support the site, therefore, the members should have full access to everything posted. I fully understand the need for photocopying charges (MC would have to have an employee research the requested doc's, photocopy, pay for paper and postage to send). However this is site where members can securely log-in, access the documents, and print/save at costs only to them (provided the print protects were removed).

Don't think that password protection prevents outsiders from accessing the site, these passwords are all too easily shared. I was the computer and network support person for a large public high school. I know. ;)

I believe the govererning documents should be available to everyone, members and non members alike. A prospective buyer who has access to these documents knows what he is buying into up front and is far less likely to be a problem.

I don't believe meeting minutes, financial statements, vendor contracts, etc. should be available to non members.

As the board president, you should be in a position to direct your MC in what to make available and how. If you aren't, you should consider changing MCs. MCs work for the association, not the other way around.
Ron
SC
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Jadedone, I think it is a bad idea to have your HOA data on a MC website. What happens when you change MCs?

Take a look at this site: www.CypressGreensHOA.com. I set this up through community123.com. All controlling documents can be viewed and downloaded by visitors as well as members. There is a pass word protected area for the members only data such as minutes, financials, calendar of events, members' directory, discussion topics, etc. And a third area accessible only to Board members. My son, who is a website expert, evaluated their website and recommended them over having DARCO building a website for them.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerB on 05/08/2007 6:51 AM
Jadedone, I think it is a bad idea to have your HOA data on a MC website. What happens when you change MCs?

Very good point.
Ron
SC

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