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CharlesB22 (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:


Our 2015 Operating Budget just came out. I see the Board/PM has "rounded up" the monthly dues by $0.11 per month, per unit vs. the actual expense total.

For the year, that becomes $277.20 for the whole community of 210.

Any experience with this happening by others?
Any feelings regarding the ethics of it?

Note that no other creditor I, or probably any of us has, does this.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Charles,

I'm not real positive of what you are saying.

Our Association will, for bookkeeping purposes, round up assessments to the next 50 cent mark (10.25 rounded to 10.50, 10.75 rounded to 11 for example). This is done because our documents specify that the late charge is 10% of the assessment. Therefore, to keep from dealing with pennies, we round up. However, we also adjust the budget to account for that extra income amount, typically be adding it to the tree trimming line item (as we could always use money to trim another tree).

Are you saying that your Assocaitions income is greater than expenses because of this rounding up?

If you are, have you asked the Board about this?
CharlesB22 (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Tim-

Yes, it looks that way. The current budget Income vs. Expense balances exactly. That's because it uses the exact numbers to the penny.

However, the total actual expense for the month ($396.87)as detailed on the itemized annual budget was rounded to a $397 monthly assessment in the mailing that accompanied the budget distribution.

I have not "asked the Board", as this just came out.
Since our annual budget is now $985K/yr, they *should* be dealing in pennies.

Ref: CA Civil Code 5600(b) "An association shall not impose or collect an assessment or fee that exceeds the amount necessary to defray the costs for which it is levied."

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Our association always used whole numbers because it makes the math easier - in your case, you're looking at $58,212 a month (assuming everyone pays in full and on time), $698,544 a year. You didn't say what's covered by the budget or what your situation is regarding reserves, but it seems a wee bit petty to quibble over 11 cents. This isn't a budget buster ($11 or $110 might be a different story)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
OP:

please volunteer to be treasurer

then YOU can deal with the .11 every month from each member

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
.11, you have to be kidding??? A budget is an estimate of events in the past, not a crystal ball into the future.
CharlesB22 (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Shelia-
Whole numbers of course is an easy solution.

The budget is a detailed annual operating expense line item budget with a Reserve section.

The $0.11 then is times 12 for the year times 210 units. And it's gone on for the last 3 years.

If Visa or AT&T or Comcast did this, I doubt the average person would let it slide.
CharlesB22 (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
John- I'm unable to get medical clearance from my Cardiologist and Psychiatrist!
CharlesB22 (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Richard- The vast majority of our expense line items are known in advance expenses from vendors, contractors and utilities. Of course, there is some estimated stuff, some contingency.

The topic was not the budget per se, but the practice of rounding monthly assessments upwards for the convenience of a hired accounting department.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
So you can sleep better at night, recommend to the Treasurer that the additional $277.20 be allocated to the reserves and be done with it.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> If Visa or AT&T or Comcast did this, I doubt the average person would let it slide.

The big difference is that any rounding errors...go into the HOA account, which belongs to...the homeowners.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Charles

So we keep it close to home, your home insurance and property taxes are rounded up also. If you belong to a country club, your monthly dues are a whole number.

The purpose of the civil code you referenced was so directors would not have the extra money to throw themselves lavish holiday parties and give themselves hefty year end bonuses. And yes they do.
CharlesB22 (California)
Posts: 10
Posted:
Richard- RE: Property tax. Both the line items and bottom line total on my property tax are to 2 decimal places. The final total is not rounded.
Also, since we are a CA *non-profit* Corporation, that extra unreconciled income *possibly may be a taxable event.

OT: The little extra 9/10 cent on the end of gas prices adds up to half a billion dollars/yr.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Charles,

Well, I can understand the rounding to make it easier for bookkeeping purposes.
It sounds like something I actually recently did.

Our Board approved the rounding as I described earlier. I wrote up our letter and included the budget. Unfortunately, I grabbed the wrong piece of paper and sent out the wrong budget (the one that didn't include the rounded up amount). Simple human error. One person (and only one person) brought this to my attention. I quickly wrote up a letter explaining the error and sent out the approved budget.

It could be that simple. Human error.

This is why I suggested you contact your Board about the issue. They simply might not know about the error and, once known, will correct it.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
We (I) just did our annual budget and made sure it worked out to an even number by allocating an extra $6.50 to our contingency line item. This seems a lot easier than dealing with homeowners with too much time on their hands.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasK1 on 12/03/2014 11:53 AM
We (I) just did our annual budget and made sure it worked out to an even number by allocating an extra $6.50 to our contingency line item. This seems a lot easier than dealing with homeowners with too much time on their hands.

Well done and well said.........LOL
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
> that extra unreconciled income *possibly may be a taxable event.

Reeeelly?

Then maybe we'd better run it out to 4 or 5 significant figures in fractional cents.
GreggT (Florida)
Posts: 77
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/03/2014 1:33 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 12/03/2014 11:53 AM
We (I) just did our annual budget and made sure it worked out to an even number by allocating an extra $6.50 to our contingency line item. This seems a lot easier than dealing with homeowners with too much time on their hands.


What Douglas said! It seems lately we have had several posters that really are not suited to live in a HOA community for both their mental health and the board of directors.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Rounding off to the nearest dime makes sense from an accounting perspective and simplifies the collection of full dues amounts. It's worth inquiring but our accountant begs us to keep our dues rate at an easy to count number.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
I prepare the budgets for my HOA. I round everything to the nearest $100 - sometimes up and sometimes down. Here is some of our reasoning:

1. It's more readable. Most people have a hard time looking at a column full of numbers that look like this ($125,963.42 and $11,132.76) or even like this ($125,963. and $11,132.) instead of like this ($126,000 and $11,100).

2. It's a best effort guess. A budget is a prediction or guess or estimate of what expenses are going to be for a 12 month period in the future. No one expects anyone to hit those estimates to the penny. At the end of the year, when our CPA audits our books, she includes a Budget vs Actual (BVA) report which shows the variances between our estimates and our actual numbers. (We also have BVAs done monthly, but those aren't audited). Personally, I would not trust any BVA report where the Budget figures and the Actual figures are identical and the Variances are all $0. Somebody would have to be cooking the books to make that happen. It doesn't happen in the real world.

3. Stuff happens. Even if your contracts are set in stone, things can get cancelled or added or deferred. It's the job of our Board to get close to the budget numbers, and to manage to the expectation of our HOs which is that we will get close to what we promised. If our Variances are within $100 or $200 of our budget, our HOs are usually satisfied. When it turns out that our estimates weren't that close, we explain why.

4. Some of the largest numbers are unpredictable. One of our biggest expenses is water (houses are not individually metered). The differences from one year to the next has been in the thousands of dollars. At the beginning of the year, we have no idea what our delinquencies are going to be. Those differences from year to year can also be in the thousands of dollars. Before we went to a fixed rate snow contract, we paid on a per event basis. The differences from year to year was sometimes in the tens of thousands of dollars.

Charles

Your first misconception is that the budget income and the budget expense match exactly because you are tracking things down to the penny. Not so. If you budget at the dollar level, income and expense will match. If you budget at the $100 dollar level, income and expense will match. If you budget at the $1,000 level, income and expense will match. That's because, in fund balance accounting, Revenues = Expenses always. No exceptions.

Your second misconception is your interpretation of CA CC 5600(b). You read it as if there is no flexibility when in fact the concept of "materiality" comes into play in every accounting. You are not dealing with a bank teller who needs to reconcile his cash draw at the end of his shift. You are dealing with hundreds or thousands of transactions done by many different people who are relying on a wide array of best effort estimates.

Your third misconception is that the difference between the Budget amount and the Actual amount somehow results in a "cash disappearance." Not so. The difference between the budget and the actual is captured in the variance. Any excess cash is either spent for the benefit of the HOA, or added to the HOA reserves, or considered when setting the next year's HOA fees. It never just disappears. And it always accrues to the benefit of the members. And it never gets siphoned off into someone's pocket - unless you have a very different type of problem than budgeting.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Correction - Meant to end the last sentence "unless you have a very different type of problem than budgeting and rounding."

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
I think what Charles is saying and, I believe we all agree with, is that the initial budget for the year should have expected income = expected expenses.

This does not appear to be the case with Charles's Association (at least for this/next year).
Personally, I think it's likely human error that it was reported that way.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 12/03/2014 6:22 PM
I think what Charles is saying and, I believe we all agree with, is that the initial budget for the year should have expected income = expected expenses.

This does not appear to be the case with Charles's Association (at least for this/next year).
Personally, I think it's likely human error that it was reported that way.

Actually, I think that Charles is saying a lot more than that. His stated problem is with rounding and he seems to gloss over the budgeting function itself.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
expected income SHOULD EQUAL expected spending

if you round the 'dues' upward then increase a line spending item (usually reserves) upwards to compensate

this is done when DRAFTING the preliminary budget - not AFTER the final approved version

if form 1120(h) is filed any excess over $100 would become taxable @ 30%

if it had been done properly NO ONE WOULD BE JIBBERING NONSENSE NOW

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