What if the Bylaws were improperly amended 15 years ago?

Started by FrankF3 • 50 replies • 2533 views

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FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

My wife and I are in the process of buying a single family home in a development of about 400 units (votes), the main portion of which was constructed in 1992. I believe the Declarant exited in September, 1998. While looking over their CCRs, I became aware that the Bylaws, which were amended in 1999 (including increasing the BoD from 3 to 5), may have not been done as proscribed in the original bylaws - which required notifying all owners 14 days ahead of a meeting to amend, a quorum of 50% of voters and getting an approval vote of 75% of all voters to expand the size of the BoD.

According to the current property manager, "the bylaws were voted on and passed." Exactly who voted is not mentioned and the PM does not have minutes from the 1999 "special meeting" that was to be called to amend the Bylaws (as mentioned in previous monthly minutes). The meeting minutes for the month following the "special meeting" do not mention the vote or the results, except to address the need under the "revised bylaws" to allocate 2 and 1 year terms of the then 5 members (one assumes to start staggered terms).

I am concerned that a meeting of the membership was not held as required and that the amended Bylaws are not quite legit - and haven't been for 15 years. My wife and I like the house, but are torn by the prospect of becoming part of a possible cover-up and situation that might have serious repercussions down the line. What these repercussions might be is at the heart of my present post. Can anyone say how much of a pickle this is or might become for us as an individual owner and HOA member if their amended Bylaws are tainted?

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

if you believe the 'governing documents' may be tainted

either

get a legal opinion IN WRITING from an attorney versed in BOTH contract & RE law

or

look elsewhere

ps. 'nit pickers' and HOAs are not a good fit anyway

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Frank

What even caused you to go looking?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

By laws are internal documents and do not need filed. The CC&Rs over rule the by laws and are filed. Are you planning to run for a Board position? A HOA is run by its members for its members. Majority rules. The board does most of the daily decisions but members vote for the bigger items like rule changes or special asessments.

A by law issue would not concern me much. Especially something like the numbef on the board if the numbef is feasable to meet.

Former HOA President

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

Are you saying that looking into the CCRs of an HOA you might become part of, is "nit picking"?

BTW, I forgot to mention that we may only have about 3 days to accept the "mandated membership" cited in our Purchase Agreement - or to back out. Not much time to start searching for a qualified lawyer.

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

I went looking because I am in a condo now that has its own challenges re amending foundation documents - basically, they can't get enough member to a meeting to attempt such action... which I suspect might have motivated the BoD back in 1999 in this new (to us) situation.

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

"Are you planning to run for a Board position?"
My wife and I tend to get involved, so this might be a possibility. OTOH, I may just become a thorn in their side. I tend not to keep my mouth shut.

"A by law issue would not concern me much. Especially something like the numbef on the board if the numbef is feasable to meet."
I have not read the amende Bylaws closely, but I believe they made other major changes like quorum and votes needed to amend, etc.

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

Let me get this straight- you are concerned because there are no detailed minutes from a meeting that took place 14 years ago? Concerning a rules change that has not been challenged in the meantime?

Let's imagine the outcome of a legal challenge (which is what would be needed): plaintiff asserts that the records are incomplete, manager and officers testify that the changes were legitimately passed, no challenge in the previous 14 years.

I would definitely advise you to pass on this house.

I am not a lawyer.

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

I have no idea if it has been challenged. The February 2014 minutes mentions a board member who "...expressed some concerns about how we are handling this vote. He's worried that someone will challenge the vote." This is related to some question about what % of owner's vote is needed to OK some project... and I wonder if this fuzziness is related to their "amended" Bylaws.

GreggT (Florida)
Posts: 77

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB26 on 12/02/2014 4:53 AM
if you believe the 'governing documents' may be tainted

either

get a legal opinion IN WRITING from an attorney versed in BOTH contract & RE law

or

look elsewhere

ps. 'nit pickers' and HOAs are not a good fit anyway

AMEN!! Just what an association needs is someone like you. Please remember the board positions draw no pay and for the most part operate for the benefit of the owners and sometimes minor errors occur. To bring up something that happened 14 years ago and something so minor as a change in the number board members is ridiculous, JMO of course. It would be best for everyone if you did look elsewhere!

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

FrankF3(Indiana) is diligently & correctly carrying out pre-purchase diligence. How many prefer to do otherwise & regret later ? Coming from a condo (legislated template) community he sees the "Peculiar Institution" of that sometimes whacky universe. Respectfully I cannot see this as "nit-picking" other than in contextual contrast to those who make foolish decsisonas and cry big-time later.

Frank : go through some of the current and past topics here and at www.communityassociations.net.

Shared ownerships (HOA, condo, co-op etc) can be Heaven & or Hell and infinite in-between. Been there. Managed there. Researched there. Provided ADR there. Watch out.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

FrankF3,

generally one will find language similar to "Membership is appurtenant to and may not be separated from ownership." in the CCRs

it is a 'good thing' that you are being informed in the purchase agreement

you are performing 'due diligence' and have found a potential blunder by a previous board of directors - bring said blunder to the seller's attention and see what they say (in writing)

or

ask your closing attorney's opinion NOW (if no attorney, GET ONE)

or

walk away

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

When I joined our board, I went through all of our documents. I found that one of the amendments to our CC&Rs reduced the number of people needed for a quorum. It was signed by all the Board members - but apparently there was no vote of the membership.

I thought - How ridiculous? The Board cannot unilaterally reduce the number of HOs needed to conduct business.

Then I thought - There must have been a reason for the change. And the most likely reason was that the Board needed to do their job despite the apathy of the community.

So I kept silent. The amendment remains on the books. I'm probably the only one who knows its defective. And I'm not about to find fault with people who were just trying to get their job done as best they could under difficult circumstances.

Perhaps you should consider doing the same.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

FrankF3,

I think you are right and smart to be concerned in your situation. Since your stated that the heart of your post is possible repercussions that might affect you as a homeowner?, I think there are some hypothetical problems that could occur. They may never happen but who knows? A lot would depend on the attitude of the BODs attitude if a problem surfaced and how they handle conflict. The current BOD most likely was not in charge 15 years ago. The old BOD may have been bad, or they may simply have not been educated on the correct way of doing things.

Do you have a way of approaching the current BOD with your concerns in a non confrontational manner and giving them a chance to explain their viewpoint on the facts you uncovered? to me that would be good start, maybe they are good reasonable people.

p.s. One possible negative outcome could be that someone else uncovers the mistake and files a lawsuit against your HOA/BOD and you have to pay for the bill if the HOA/BOD is found responsible for any damages. I don't think this is something you should ignore and not investigate since you have the chance to do so before you purchase, it's possible there could be a big price to pay for doing nothing, and down the road and you may kick yourself for not addressing it now.

just my opinion, good luck,

Emma

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It is very good your doing your due diligence in this matter. However, the change in number of members on the board is done due to apathy. A good sign of apathy in a HOA is the lower number of required board members. We had to lower our board members from 9 to 5. That's because we could not even get 9 people to attend a meeting never the less be board members. Plus that was too many cooks in the kitchen for 107 homes. Plus are these Board positions and not officer ones? Remember some HOA's require OFFICER positions and ADDITIONAL BOARD members. That means 3 Officers and then several board members. That wasn't clear from your post if that was the case if it included office positions as well. Which the office positions are usually voted on by the Board members NOT the general membership.

I would not worry too much about the "By-laws" as they are not required to be filed and are easily changed. It is the CC&R's that are filed and have more "legal" standing.

Remember you are NOT a member of the HOA yet and they can deny you a certain degree of their documentation. You may have to go through the buyer for the HOA information if the HOA will not provide it to NON-Members.

My feeling is to go ahead with this purchase and plan on making changes. The HOA sounds like they could do with someone like you. A HOA is ONLY made up of YOU and your Neighbors. So if you like the neighborhood, then why not go for it? I signed up and became President of my HOA improving it beyond what it was when I first bought. Give it a chance....

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EmmaH1 on 12/02/2014 8:13 AM
One possible negative outcome could be that someone else uncovers the mistake and files a lawsuit against your HOA/BOD and you have to pay for the bill if the HOA/BOD is found responsible for any damages. I don't think this is something you should ignore and not investigate since you have the chance to do so before you purchase, it's possible there could be a big price to pay for doing nothing, and down the road and you may kick yourself for not addressing it now.

IMO, the "hypothetical" threat of a lawsuit is the biggest boondoggle that any HOA faces. If the Board is acting in good faith, considering any advice that the HOA lawyer, accountant, etc. provide, and does what it believes is in the best interest of the HOA, then the D&O insurance is there to protect them. Too many times, Board members are afraid to take action which they know is the right thing to do. Or they delay taking action when there is a true sense of urgency. What ever happened to common sense? Was the action taken by the Board reasonable based on what they knew at the time? Did it occur so long ago without any repercussions that bringing it up now could open up a new hornet's nest? Is being perfectly correct more important than getting things accomplished and the ball moved in a positive direction? I'd rather have a Board that isn't afraid to make mistakes than one that can't get out of it's own way because of fear of "hypothetical" lawsuits. Sorry for the rant.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

I guess it depends on how much you and your wife like the house.

Good luck making your decision, I hope you make the best one.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredS7 on 12/02/2014 5:23 AM
Let me get this straight- you are concerned because there are no detailed minutes from a meeting that took place 14 years ago? Concerning a rules change that has not been challenged in the meantime?

Let's imagine the outcome of a legal challenge (which is what would be needed): plaintiff asserts that the records are incomplete, manager and officers testify that the changes were legitimately passed, no challenge in the previous 14 years.

I would definitely advise you to pass on this house.

I second this advice.

When someone puts a deadline on doing due diligence my answer is always, "Have a nice day" as the negotiations are over.

BobD4 (up north)
Posts: 1,002

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/02/2014 4:45 AM
. . . My wife and I like the house, but are torn by the prospect of . . . serious repercussions down the line. What these repercussions might be is at the heart of my present post. Can anyone say how much of a pickle this is or might become for us as an individual owner and HOA member if their amended Bylaws are tainted?

Whether it was 15 years ago or 15 minutes ago, ask yourself what level of shaky mis-governance is within your comfort zone. Only you can know for sure whether such occurred here in 1999, and how much clairvoyance do you have about possible future buckshee changes ?

Presuming your concern is correct about expanding the Board from 3 to 5 in 1999, does it bother that FIFTEEN 15 years have passed without retroactive correction but with still some evasive defences. What else is being withheld ?

Some jurisdictions may specifically legitimize by law past Board votes taken where one or more Director's qualifications were later found defective. (My jurisdiction enacts such within its condo law). Check that out if possible.

Merely increasing seats from 3 to 5 may not be Satan. There is a difference between these two :
"we short-quorumed a change from 'mid-brown' to any 'colour of brown' on the unit front doors" and "we short-quorumed and improperly notified a fundamental change to quorum and to trigger points to approve substantial changes".

Do you plan to ever sell with the next owner possibly pondering the same question ? Maybe not too likely. But your diligence is smart.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I agree that due diligence is really important and it's good that you practice it, but I would concentrate on current topics, i.e., minutes for the past year, financials, are their reserves in good shape.

With Fred & Larry, but perhaps more strongly, a 14 year old error probably has passed the legal time limit (either statutes of limitation or doctrine of laches) for anyone to try to take legal action.
I'm not in the legal professions.

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

Friends,

We just talked to our real estate agent who has been talking to the PM and the title attorney that is working on our purchase. He has been informed that the amended Bylaws will be recorded, though it will require an affidavit of some sort because of the... uh... unusual route the procedure has taken.

Also, the title attorney and the attorney who was consulted about the amendments back in 1999 are of the opinion that, if the amended document were challenged at this late date, a judge would lean toward the HOA and present Board (all other things being equal).

We are inclined to take them at their word and move forward on buying the house... though, as HOA members, we will probably be paying close attention to events in our new neighborhood.

Thanks to all. Even the posts that were less than flattering were useful.

Cheers!
Frank

PS. To the the poster who reminded me that Board members are volunteers, etc.: Thanks, but I already knew this as I have been actively involved with our condo HOA, both as a volunteer worker and nit picker, and my wife is its current president.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Congratulations Frank. Well done.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 12/02/2014 9:03 AM

Not that I doubt your experience but I have witnessed and spoken to many in my state with the exact opposite of your views. Here the norm seems to be the HOA/BOD and their Attorney taking action too often, or threatening legal action too often. Around here HOA/BODs and their attorneys are brazen they may/do know they are in the wrong and bluff and threaten anyway----not afraid at all (quite the opposite). They take full advantage of the fact that they have deep pockets and the homeowner being bullied by them has to come up with legal fees on their own.

But when you explain your situation it explains some of your viewpoints if that's what you have experienced. I probably would feel the same way if I were you. It's always good to see other peoples ideas and where they come from.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Making a mountain out of a molehill.

Now that we cleared up this legal dilemma I can sleep soundly.....

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EmmaH1 on 12/02/2014 3:39 PM
bo

Posted By NpS on 12/02/2014 9:03 AM

I'm not sure that you and I are talking about the same thing. I propose that Board members should consider the advice of counsel but not necessarily follow it. Sometimes the best thing to do is change an attorney who is too aggressive for the tastes of the community. I propose that Boards should not threaten legal action if they execute poorly - like slapping on fines without any consideration for how they are going to collect in a particular circumstance. Bullying is the easiest way to lose trust and credibility. I also think that the Board is answerable to the community if it wastes precious funds on chasing pipe-dream litigation - so I don't think that the concept of deep pockets is necessarily valid, unless of course the HOA members are in a coma.

I have had the opportunity to sit in many seats and wear many hats. I've had my fights with Boards and with other HOs. My issue is that Board members need to use their own common sense, educate themselves like folks on this forum attempt to do, and take appropriate action. Appropriate action does not mean simply sending a threat letter or filing a lawsuit. Nor does it mean backing down because of some "phantom" threat of a lawsuit by a disgruntled HO. My concern and my rant is that the threat of litigation against the HOA can immobilize certain Board members - a perfectly natural response of an unpaid volunteer - and this often gets in the way of sound business decisions that could benefit the financial health of the HOA.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

Nps
You seem to be very balanced and look at things from all angles. You seem fair. (I originally didn't completely follow the point you were making. (Now I can see you weren't being one-sided at all.) This HOA business is very case by case, I agree that hold a position on a BOD is not be easy, and I'm sure thankless at times.
Emma

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/02/2014 5:00 AM
Are you saying that looking into the CCRs of an HOA you might become part of, is "nit picking"?

BTW, I forgot to mention that we may only have about 3 days to accept the "mandated membership" cited in our Purchase Agreement - or to back out. Not much time to start searching for a qualified lawyer.

Let me see if I have this right....

A vote was taken 15 years ago to change the size of the board.
You're questioning, 15 years later, whether or not every last detail pertaining to that vote met the exact letter of the requirements necessary to vote on that matter, records that I would expect few HOAs would retain for decades on end, yet you don't think that's nit picking?

I have to ask... why would you even consider a home within an HOA if you're THAT concerned about what is now essentially ancient history?

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/02/2014 4:55 AM
By laws are internal documents and do not need filed.

Once again Melissa you make a statement of fact without checking your facts. Indiana the OP's state is one of the few that require By-laws to be filed, Ohio is another one.

See: http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/183095/view/topic/Default.aspx

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

From the PA Code for Condos:

PA 68 CS § 3219. Amendment of declaration.
(b) Limitation of action to challenge amendment.--No action
to challenge the validity of an amendment adopted by the
association pursuant to this section may be brought more than
one year after the amendment is recorded.

Language for Planned Communities at PA 68 CS § 5219(b) is identical.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

When our association amended its Bylaws, our attorney had them filed with the county, and copies were also sent to the homeowners. You may want to check your county recorder and possibly the corporations division of the secretary of state's office. Talk to the current owner as well - he/she may have some records somewhere that provide more information.

Since it has been 14 years, there's a chance that the people involved with that vote are no longer around, so if the community has been running ok in the meantime, it may not be a major issue. Since the bylaws dictate how the association itself is to run, is there a specific issue that you're concerned about?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpS on 12/02/2014 7:52 PM
From the PA Code for Condos:

PA 68 CS § 3219. Amendment of declaration.
(b) Limitation of action to challenge amendment.--No action
to challenge the validity of an amendment adopted by the
association pursuant to this section may be brought more than
one year after the amendment is recorded.

Language for Planned Communities at PA 68 CS § 5219(b) is identical.

Thank you for the legal reference.

OP:

The recorded bylaws are now the actual bylaws.

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

DaveD3,

Let me see if I can explain this...

I come to forums such as this because, unlike some folks, I don't have all the answers. I expect that the folks frequenting these sites will be tolerant of inexperience and collegial because it is their nature to be helpful. Occasionally, one will be subjected to a personal attack. Fortunately, this is a minority.

First off, changing the size of the board and voting/attendance requirements was only one of the things they changed. They replaced one set of Bylaws with their substantially rewritten version, did not record it and, though there are minutes from the months on either side of the "special meeting," they kept no record of this important gathering. Reading the available minutes indicates that there was no preparation for a meeting of owners. I strongly suspect the vote was that of 3 people, not 400+ as was required. I also suspect that their motives were pure. My concern, as stated, was what might flow from this if any kind of challenge might arise.

Now, if it is some kind of sin or frivolity to ask if this matters after 15 years, I am guilty and will accept your disdain for what it is worth. Foolishly perhaps, I believe that public forums created and maintained to encourage discussion should be open to **all levels of questions.** Most are and that is one of the most impressive things I have found on the Internet. I never expected it when I started decades ago and was blown away when I found this generous and helpful spirit among strangers. I continue to be amazed and uplifted by the helpfulness I find. Therefore, I will try to hold on to my perspective despite the occasional complaint from a nit picker. Cheerio!

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

SheliaH,
Actually, a number of the directors that were on the scene in 1999 are still around, but as I wrote above, we are going to trust that getting the amended Bylaws recorded will lessen any potential complications going forward.

I'd like to broaden the subject at this point to one I raised recently in another thread. There, as a fellow Hoosier, I did ask if you could contact me directly to share more specific info about finding an HOA lawyer for the condo association we will soon be leaving. We are about 1 hour away from Indy and think a local attorney who might represent them and perhaps also attend a meeting would be preferable, but don't know how to find one who is really qualified. I tried the CAI's dropdown list of resources but, like our county's bar association list, there is no "HOA" category to search on. What are related categories that might indicate possible experience with HOAs? Our agent has suggested an attorney whose specialty is contract law. Does that sound like a good match? Are "real estate" lawyers likely to have experience with things like HOA regulations, bylaws, etc.?
Thanks.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Hi Frank

Let me approach this thing from a different angle.

The changes have been on the books for 15 years, and have apparently not been overturned.

Any court is going to place the burden of proof that an impropriety existed 15 years ago on the challenger. Courts realize that many HOAs may not even have a full set of records going back 15 years.

My above cite to PA statute goes even further. It prevents any challenge after 1 year. Your state may handle things differently, but even if a specific time limit isn't codified, courts are not going to burden the HOA with proving the procedural legitimacy of something that was changed 15 years ago.

In my particular case, we have had more than 5 MCs in the last 5 years. A couple of them made a mess of our records. We have boxes in storage that no one is willing to invest the time or energy to sort through. I would have a difficult time with anyone who wanted our HOA to divert attention away from our current and future needs to dig through those old boxes. We have limited resources and we are volunteers.

You should familiarize yourself with the concept of laches - which penalizes people for sitting on their rights too long.

Best of luck in your new home.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Do not use Real Estate attorney's to handle HOA business. HOA's are NOT Real Estate. They are non-profit corporations. They operate by corporate rules. It's best to find a lawyer who specializes in HOA's if you can afford it or a lawyer familiar with contractual laws. Although you shouldn't personally need an attorney when dealing with your HOA. Pay your dues and follow the rules keeps you out of the legal pocket. Remember the HOA attorney is NOT your attorney. It is the ENTIRE HOA's attorney. It's up to the board to talk to them. Besides like I always say "Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors..."

Former HOA President

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/03/2014 8:01 AM
I tried the CAI's dropdown list of resources but, like our county's bar association list, there is no "HOA" category to search on. What are related categories that might indicate possible experience with HOAs? Our agent has suggested an attorney whose specialty is contract law. Does that sound like a good match? Are "real estate" lawyers likely to have experience with things like HOA regulations, bylaws, etc.?

If there are not any firms who specialize in HOAs in your area, then look at yourself as a non-profit corporation with real estate holdings. Find a firm or individual with the right mix of skills to cover these bases.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

FrankF3,

In my opinion, a attorney whose specialty is in contract law would be the best fit, if you as a homeowner/member are having a legal question or dispute concerning the CC&Rs since CC&Rs are actually a contract.

In my opinion, if you are sitting on the BOD and need help or advice on normal everyday HOA business, such as writing bylaws, filing liens, contracting with a vendors or defending a questionable action taken by the HOA/BOD, that a HOA specific attorney would be the way to go.

The HOA specific attorney will always defend the BODs actions no matter what, that is their job. The HOA attorney will not ever help a homeowner/member to uncover a wrong by the HOA/BOD. (So do go to them if you have valid complaint about a wrongdoing if your a homeowner, you will have to find your own attorney.)

In my opinion a contract lawyer would be a smart choice for to ALL, because their specialty is creating, writing and amending contracts will not contradict all other State Laws, and Civil Laws which ultimately have hierarchy over anything else. (Which could ultimately cut down on conflict down the road.)

I think if all HOA CC&Rs were set in place by a good Contract Law Attorney, maybe there would be less of these crazy problems we here of all the time.

Emma

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

3rd paragraph should say (So DO NOT go to them.......

I know people shoot me I send before I proof, I try to stop that.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/03/2014 8:01 AM
SheliaH,
Actually, a number of the directors that were on the scene in 1999 are still around, but as I wrote above, we are going to trust that getting the amended Bylaws recorded will lessen any potential complications going forward.

I'd like to broaden the subject at this point to one I raised recently in another thread. There, as a fellow Hoosier, I did ask if you could contact me directly to share more specific info about finding an HOA lawyer for the condo association we will soon be leaving. We are about 1 hour away from Indy and think a local attorney who might represent them and perhaps also attend a meeting would be preferable, but don't know how to find one who is really qualified. I tried the CAI's dropdown list of resources but, like our county's bar association list, there is no "HOA" category to search on. What are related categories that might indicate possible experience with HOAs? Our agent has suggested an attorney whose specialty is contract law. Does that sound like a good match? Are "real estate" lawyers likely to have experience with things like HOA regulations, bylaws, etc.?
Thanks.

That's right, you did and I'm sorry for the oversight (the last two weeks have been really busy!)

As I said in the last thread, your typical real estate attorney may not be the best choice to discuss HOA issues, not because they don't know or are incapable of finding out, but there are a number of quirks to HOAs that I feel are better suited for a specialist.

If you go to the Central Indiana's CAI website (http://www.cai-in.org/), you will note the bottom of the page has a few premium sponsors. Among those are the three law firms that I said pretty much specialize in HOAs in this area - one currently represents my association and another had been our attorney for many years (once upon a time, they were the only ones who worked with HOAs).

Since it's not a great idea to name specific companies on this website, I won't list their names here or give you a specific recommendation, but I would suggest you contact all of them and see if they can come to your board meeting for a meeting. Ask if they'll do an initial visit for free and prepare a list of questions so they can come prepared (if they charge for an initial meeting, this will save you time and money).

In fact, if you're an hour away, the Central Indiana Chapter is sponsoring a networking event tomorrow (Dec. 4) in Fishers - if you go to the website RIGHT NOW, you can sign up. There may be representatives from those firms attending and if not, there should be people from other HOAs you can talk to and get references that way - good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/02/2014 5:08 AM
"Are you planning to run for a Board position?"
"My wife and I tend to get involved, so this might be a possibility. OTOH, I may just become a thorn in their side. I tend not to keep my mouth shut."

Isn't this a nice attitude to bring to your new community?

Haven't yet bought the place but already we have plans to maybe just "become a thorn in their side".

That's cute. People vounteer their time to maintain a place you and your wife find desirable and your contribution is to be a PIA, big mouth and all..........

How lucky can one community get????

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

I would welcome Frank into my community with open arms, we have the exact opposite a lot of unhappy people but too scared and afraid to speak up and get involved. They are shy, quiet, nice and timid, like you seem to be JonD......LOL.LOL

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

JonD1 (New York),
I tend to think you are not a native NYer (I am). If you were, I think you would be familiar with tongue-in-cheek comments.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/03/2014 1:18 PM
JonD1 (New York),
I tend to think you are not a native NYer (I am). If you were, I think you would be familiar with tongue-in-cheek comments.

Well than you would be wrong about that too.

How you made that determination is beyond me. But in the end enough to say your assumption was incorrect.

And as a member serving on our Board I don't see a whole lot of humor in your comments.

I read through posts yours included carefully. What would suggest to you your comments were humorous.

And if so IMO you failed.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FrankF3 on 12/03/2014 7:40 AM

Now, if it is some kind of sin or frivolity to ask if this matters after 15 years, I am guilty and will accept your disdain for what it is worth. Foolishly perhaps, I believe that public forums created and maintained to encourage discussion should be open to **all levels of questions.** Most are and that is one of the most impressive things I have found on the Internet. I never expected it when I started decades ago and was blown away when I found this generous and helpful spirit among strangers. I continue to be amazed and uplifted by the helpfulness I find. Therefore, I will try to hold on to my perspective despite the occasional complaint from a nit picker. Cheerio!

Frank,

In my opinion, I think a firm that has Corporate background would be the most helpful in general. Attorneys dealing with Corporations are used to dealing with procedural issues (notices, elections, etc.) and tend to also know contract law well (and a lot of the issues in an Association are contract in nature). In my understanding, Property law has it's on uniqueness but is generally based in contract law as well.

If needed, the Association can always utilize different attorneys for different issues.

EmmaH1
Posts: 674

Posted:

that seems right Tim the corporation part can be complicated

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

How lucky can one community get????

They may get ME as a member!

FrankF3 (Indiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

SheliaH,
There are are, as you said, three listed. One of them has a defunct web address and a a single review on yelp.com that was a gripe about getting billed for getting billed. Would love to think that one of our members would travel to Indy for a conference, but unfortunately, that is pie in the sky. When my (president) wife's 5 person BoD just met for the first time, she suggested that they meet once a month, two sided with her, but one wanted to meet quarterly and another stick to the previous policy of every two months. When she wrote to the PM to confirm the new monthly schedule, he wrote back, "The board meets monthly." We have been going to the meetings for a couple of years now (since we got them to hold public meetings) and my wife has been on the board for a year, yet this guy thinks she needs educating and that it is written in stone that they meet every 2 months. This ain't gonna be easy.

I will contact the other two law firms, but will also continue to survey local attorneys. I wish I could get the prospective lawyers to submit to a test, which would basically be a question as to whether or not our 23 year old condo HOA is subject to the current TITLE 32 regs. I don't know if they would go for this without charging $, or if it is an appropriate approach + I still don't know how to confirm the answer to this question or locate the older, previous regs that we might be subject to(?)... or whether we are subject to any state regs if this is some kind of opt-in situation. It goes without saying that I am confused. (but still hopeful that clarity might eventually emerge)

Thanks again.

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