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CarlB8 (Maryland)
Posts: 3
Posted:
under the Maryland HOA Act.

Our board had a lunch to discuss working relationships, processes and procedures. There were 6 of 7 Board members, an agenda, discussion, decisions, and minutes, but no record of any votes. No documents were made available to the community. We also have a committee that has met several times in "closed working sessions".

When community members (and 1 dissenting board member) challenged the rest of the board, they claim that this does not meet the definition of a "meeting". In fact, one board member stated, "You need to find the definition of meeting. Using your logic if the board attends a wine tasting it's a board meeting required to be open."

Reading the HOA Act, it seems pretty clear to me, but I can't find a definition of what is and is not a meeting.

On the flip side, I am chairman of one of our standing committees. I met with our incoming, and outgoing treasurers to draft a budget for discussion with the full committee The committee meeting and budget discussion are open to membership. Am I violating the HOA Act by not announcing this to the full community?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
In California, we would call that an "orientation" meeting. It is not an action meeting, it is getting to know one another and their specific roles as Board members
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
Finding the actual definition is not necessary, what is necessary in order to be compliant with the rules is to inform your community in some way, shape or form that the board is convening and for what purpose. Depending on the laws of the state, county or HOA, you may need to call a special meeting of the board, (outside of the regular already published meeting dates) homeowners may attend such meetings, but may be prevented from speaking.

So for the meeting the OP listed here, a letter or something should of been sent that you were having a special board meeting for the purpose of: meet and greet etc.

It makes sense that there are rules surrounding a Board meeting because it gives the entire HOA a chance to witness the actions/discussions/motions of the current board. So without proper notice of all board meetings, you are essentially leaving the HOA in the dark, et al.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I always remember a post on here where someone had seen 4 of the 5 BOD Members sitting around at the pool and she accused them of having a meeting.

When one does not like something, they will grasp at straws to try and prove a point.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Carl,

Your state non-profit corporation act may define a meeting for you. I found the following on California's Davis-Sterling website and the references are to California law:

"Meeting Defined. Board meetings are defined by the Davis-Stirling Act as a gathering of a majority of directors at the same time and place to "hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business that is within the authority of the board." (Civ. Code ยง4090.)

"Business Defined. "Item of business" means any action within the authority of the board, except those actions the board has validly delegated to any other person or persons, managing agent, officer of the association, or committee of the board comprising less than a majority of the directors. (Civ. Code ยง4155.)"

Using the above definitions, your board had a meeting because they were there to "hear, discuss, or deliberate" the business of the association. The wine-tasting that your board member spoke of would become "a meeting" if a majority of the board attended and discussed association business.

Interesting that the board says what they did does not meet the definition of a meeting while simultaneously implying there is no legal definition of a meeting.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Carl

If there was an agenda, discussions, decisions, minutes then they had a meeting. Had they said we got together to have a dink and shoot the bull then I say no meeting.

Be careful of one thing out here. Many post state laws that are not your state laws. I believe in some states BOD's can meet any time without notifying anyone.

My advice is check MD laws and hold their feet to the fire with MD laws.

JeanneK3 (Maryland)
Posts: 562
Posted:
Carl:
Montgomery County Maryland, CCOC (Commission on Common Ownership Communities) just released their summer 2014 Communicator which deals with this very subject. Go to http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OCP/Resources/Files/CCOC_Newsletters/2014_Summer.pdf
to access.
Jeanne
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Jeanne's citation is a good one, Carl, if you're in Montgomery County. It does define what a meeting is NOT.

In CA, as Richard posted, the key is whether HOA biz is discussed/deliberated among a quorum of directors (outside a noticed meeting).

We're having a Brats & Brew Octoberfest soon and chances are good that a quorum of directors will be together, at least for a short time. From experience, I know that the conversations will be purely social and not business. this partly is so because the group conversing all will include non directors. In our CA HOA, we're very accustomed to not discussing HOA business illegally.
CarlB8 (Maryland)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Thanks Richard,
I think that part of this meeting could be termed orientation. But since they discussed voting processes and other operational issues and made decisions about those. I believe that makes this a meeting. There is also the issue of one of the committees holding several "executive sessions" that had nothing to do with the items cited as exceptions in Maryland's HOA Act.
CarlB8 (Maryland)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Thanks all for the info and feedback. I feel very confident in my interpretation of Maryland's HOA act. I think the part that irks me the most is the board's flippant response to any questions.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 10/02/2014 2:03 PM
Jeanne's citation is a good one, Carl, if you're in Montgomery County. It does define what a meeting is NOT.

In CA, as Richard posted, the key is whether HOA biz is discussed/deliberated among a quorum of directors (outside a noticed meeting).

We're having a Brats & Brew Octoberfest soon and chances are good that a quorum of directors will be together, at least for a short time. From experience, I know that the conversations will be purely social and not business. this partly is so because the group conversing all will include non directors. In our CA HOA, we're very accustomed to not discussing HOA business illegally.

Never assume there will not be back channel, off the record, pillow talk, etc. discussions. Anyone that assumes such does not know how business is really done.....Davis Stirling or not.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeanneK3 on 10/02/2014 10:56 AM
Carl:
Montgomery County Maryland, CCOC (Commission on Common Ownership Communities) just released their summer 2014 Communicator which deals with this very subject. Go to http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/OCP/Resources/Files/CCOC_Newsletters/2014_Summer.pdf
to access.
Jeanne

As per the link:

In summary, a reasoned and pragmatic interpretation
of the open meetings laws leads to the conclusion that
they do not apply to every gathering of board members.
But boards should be aware that if they frequently meet
in private sessions without notice to discuss and resolve
issues, and then only hold their votes in public meetings,
they can still be found to have violated the laws. And, by
not sufficiently helping their members to understand the
actions they take, they may also arouse the resentment
and mistrust of the people they are supposed to serve.

RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173
Posted:
Well said.
JamesO6 (Florida)
Posts: 170
Posted:
A HOA from same builder down the road, seems a HOA conducts notices via emails only and doesn't include the vocal members in them and attempts to change Bylaws via minority voting's due to if they get their select members only to show up at a Meeting to vote on things since all they need is 75% of the attendee's to vote on changes. Probably why their president resigned it's position and the same property management bailed out of their contract. Pending incoming lawsuits.

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