๐Ÿ’ฌ Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account โ†’

โšก Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
We are in Virginia. Our HOA Architectural committee is required by our declaration to make permanent records of all approved architectural applications. As a result, would those approved applications be something members of the association can request to view? I see nothing that should make them private information, especially since all we are talking about is the exterior of the properties. Our Arch committee is supposed to have meetings to discuss the applications before they get approved or disapproved, but I've lived in the community many years and have never seen a noticed arch committee meeting. I know of many applications that were approved, however.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Hi Cf

In our HOA, our management company keeps a file for each unit. Each file contains all correspondence with that unit's owners and residents. This includes architectural approvals. Some of these files are inches thick and go back more than 25 years.

While we would have no problem with another owner reviewing the approvals, there may be private information in the file that would be considered confidential. We would not want that information disclosed to just anyone.

If we wanted to create a file with just the architectural approvals in it, our management company would need to be compensated for this additional work. It might be a good idea to have our records organized this way, but we aren't about to make this expenditure.

So if we received your request, we would probably ask you to justify why we should incur this unplanned expense. If the answer was that you just wanted to see everything, you would probably be turned down.

On the other hand, if there was an architectural change on a particular house that you were interested in seeing, we would probably share a copy with you - but only after we had any phone numbers and email addresses (which some owners do not want published) marked out.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
CfD

I must always as, why do you ask? Are you looking for something particular?

Thanks
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 1:32 PM
We are in Virginia. Our HOA Architectural committee is required by our declaration to make permanent records of all approved architectural applications. As a result, would those approved applications be something members of the association can request to view?

Per VA ยง 55-510:

C. Books and records kept by or on behalf of an association may be withheld from inspection and copying to the extent that they concern:

9. Individual unit owner or member files, other than those of the requesting lot owner, including any individual lot owner's or member's files kept by or on behalf of the association.


Therefore, per the statute, the Association may withhold the architectural files that are not related to your lot. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just pointing out what the statute says.

If the reason you want to view the files is for supporting a similar change on your lot, simply add that information to your application. "Request to add deck similar to one that was approved at #### Street."

Are you willing to share why you want access to those files?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 1:32 PM

Our Arch committee is supposed to have meetings to discuss the applications before they get approved or disapproved, but I've lived in the community many years and have never seen a noticed arch committee meeting. I know of many applications that were approved, however.

And, per VA ยง 55-510.1, those meetings are to be announced to the membership and the membership has a right to attend the meetings.

Perhaps you can volunteer to serve on the Architectural Committee, to administrate an Association website or be editor of the Associations newsletter. This way, you can ensure such information is provided to the membership. If you are willing, perhaps you can submit your name for consideration of serving on the Board of Directors. If elected, you will have a stronger voice to correct these issues you are noticing.

I also reside in an Association that is self managed. Being self managed can save members a fair amount of money (by not hiring a management company or property manger). However, it does take time and energy from volunteers to make it work properly. If there aren't enough volunteers, some things are simply going to be placed on the back burner or simply not done. It won't happen because of a desire to not comply with statutes. It will happen because of a lack of time or energy to do everything that is required by the governing documents and statutes.

As an example: my association should have a five person board. This year only 4 volunteers stepped forward. Next year, so far, only three have agreed to serve. Serving as Treasurer, maintenance officer, website administrator and other various projects, I have calculated that I spend the equivalent of one month per year on Association business. I'm serving in all of those positions because I'm trying to correct the issues I noticed within my Association. However, I'm no longer willing to volunteer that amount of time. Therefore, without additional volunteers, some of those things simply won't get done or won't get done properly.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Archit. change approvals are not available for any owner to review. But if an owner makes a request though our prop. mgr. to review an approval that had occurred, the PM sends the request to the owner of the unit that's made a change and that Owner always has agreed to let an interested owner see the Unit file.

We are condos and all changes are for the interiors. There are 5 basic models (+several penthouses, etc.) Sometimes new Owners hear about a change to a identical unit--through the grapevine--that interests the new owner, who then would make a written request.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/25/2014 4:17 PM
Archit. change approvals are not available for any owner to review. But if an owner makes a request though our prop. mgr. to review an approval that had occurred, the PM sends the request to the owner of the unit that's made a change and that Owner always has agreed to let an interested owner see the Unit file.

We are condos and all changes are for the interiors. There are 5 basic models (+several penthouses, etc.) Sometimes new Owners hear about a change to a identical unit--through the grapevine--that interests the new owner, who then would make a written request.

I like Kerry's practice of getting prior approval from the owner where the change was made. I don't think many of our homeowners would object.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Tim,
I'm not interested in viewing the member files the property manager may have. Agree that would be inappropriate to even ask. I'm interested in viewing the "application approvals" our Declaration says the Architectural committee must make a permanent record of. Agree personal information kept in a members file shouldn't be made available to anyone other than the member. Our Arch Committee has a hard time adhering to our declaration and state statutes when it comes to open meetings, over even changing our guidelines. It is obvious their approvals are inconsistent and by their own admission they have approved many variances. In fact, they openly tell homeowners to simply apply for a variance around many different guidelines. Some of us are just interested to see how many variances, what types, what modifications are generally required before approval, etc. We are all in the dark about this and we shouldn't be.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 5:13 PM
I'm not interested in viewing the member files the property manager may have. Agree that would be inappropriate to even ask.

OK. So who is going to go through the files to screen out what is inappropriate and who is going to pay them for their time?

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 5:13 PM
It is obvious their approvals are inconsistent and by their own admission they have approved many variances.

So why don't you try to get a resolution passed that all variances must be published. That way no one needs to dig through old files. And the committee/board will be on their toes for the future.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 5:13 PM

I'm interested in viewing the "application approvals" our Declaration says the Architectural committee must make a permanent record of.

If your Association is like ours, our Architectural Committee files the approved and disapproved applications in individual lot files. Per the statute I've provided a link to, those files may be withheld from inspection (as they are individual files pertaining to another member).

Instead of asking to view approved applications, why not ask for copies of the minutes from the Architectural meetings. Typically, the minutes should identify the application and if it was approved or disapproved. If the committee failed to keep minutes (and shame on them if they are not keeping minutes) then request to view the minutes of Board meetings, as it's typical for committees to make reports to the Board.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 5:13 PM

Our Arch Committee has a hard time adhering to our declaration and state statutes when it comes to open meetings, over even changing our guidelines.

Ours did as well. Then I gather support from the membership (took three years) and the entire committee was replaced. Not wanting to be just a complainer, I volunteered and was appointed to the Architectural Committee. The Committee then organized the files, updated the files, adopted a records keeping procedure for the Committee, starting taking and posting minutes of the meeting on our Association website and established our new standard of holding monthly Architectural meetings (3rd Wed of the Month). We also did a site survey of violations, reviewed existing guidelines and proposed changes to those guidelines (which were adopted the following year). As I said, when you become involved, you become part of the process and can take steps to correct the issues you see.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 5:13 PM

It is obvious their approvals are inconsistent and by their own admission they have approved many variances.

Hopefully, the variances they approved they were authorized to approve. Typically, a Board (or committee if authorized) may grant a variance to a guideline. However, unless the governing documents provide authorization, they may not grant a variance to any covenant. To do so will cause problems and the Association could be on the hook to reimburse the homeowner to correct the violation in the future.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/25/2014 5:13 PM

Some of us are just interested to see how many variances, what types, what modifications are generally required before approval, etc. We are all in the dark about this and we shouldn't be.

Well, ask for the procedures that are used to approve an application. If none are written, volunteer to form a committee to write them.

You should also demand that the Board publish the meeting dates for the Architectural committee so interested members may attend. If the Board says no, then gather support and recall the board or simply don't reelect them. Then replace the Board with others who believe as you do that these issues need to be more transparent. Perhaps you will volunteer to serve.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I would like to add what our procedure is for approving applications:

Does the request violate any covenant? yes - disapprove, no - go to next step
Does the request violate any guideline? yes - disapprove, no - go to next step
Is there past precedence for disapproving? yes - disapprove, no - go to next step
Is there past precedence for approving? yes - approve, no - go to next step
Is the request keeping within a colonial style? yes - approve, no - go to next step
Will the request detract from a colonial style? yes - disapprove, no - approve

By granting variances, your Committee is setting a precedence of allowing none compliance with a guideline/rule/covenant. Rather then granting variances, it's best to change the actual guideline/rule/covenant so variances don't have to be granted. Additionally, it is possible that granting variances may prevent the Board from winning any legal challenge in trying to enforce the guideline/rule/covenant in the future.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/25/2014 6:47 PM

By granting variances, your Committee is setting a precedence of allowing none compliance with a guideline/rule/covenant.

Darn lack of edit. Should read non-compliance not none compliance.

CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Tim,
I agree with you on most points, but not all, and you assume that I am not involved. I've served on committees and the board itself in the past, but when the board president had trouble adhering to our bylaws, declaration, and state law I resigned. Noone else on the board knows enough to challenge him on anything, and I really didn't want to be on the wrong end of a potential law suit. It is also difficult to get people to understand what sometimes happens right in front of their face.

As you know, every state is different with their laws. But I don't believe there is anything in Virginia's laws that prohibits a member from viewing committee records, whether they are in a member's file or not. If they have to be removed from a file and produced, I'm ok with there being a cost involved. But I disagree with most who say architectural approvals should not be produced upon request. Membership oversight is one way to prevent the kind of variance and grandfathering bs that has been going on for several years now.

Also, as an example, Colorado has language in their statutes that specifically requires architectural approvals to be produced to hoa members making a request. Wouldn't surprise me if other states remove the gray area and follow this example down the road.

http://www.cohoalaw.com/from-capitol-hilllegislation-hoa-records-bill-start-preparing-now-to-comply.html

Appreciate the feedback and welcome more. Thanks.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 5:01 AM
http://www.cohoalaw.com/from-capitol-hilllegislation-hoa-records-bill-start-preparing-now-to-comply.html

Feedback from some folks who are under the dome:
http://www.hindmansanchez.com/blog/legislative-miscellaneous/community-association-residents-don't-want-more-legislation

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
I'm getting no access to your link NpS.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 6:12 AM
I'm getting no access to your link NpS.

See if this gets you there:

http://www.hindmansanchez.com/blog/legislative-miscellaneous/community-association-residents-don%E2%80%99t-want-more-legislation

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 5:01 AM

I've served on committees and the board itself in the past, but when the board president had trouble adhering to our bylaws, declaration, and state law I resigned.

As you know, it's typically easier to make changes when your involved.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 5:01 AM

Noone else on the board knows enough to challenge him on anything, and I really didn't want to be on the wrong end of a potential law suit.

I understand your concern and I know that every Association is different. However, I believe that legal action by the members is not that large of a concern. The protection against such action would be to make sure your vote is recorded in the minutes, perhaps with a reason why you voted the way you did. Additional protection would come from documentation that you were trying to fix what you saw as wrong.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 5:01 AM

But I don't believe there is anything in Virginia's laws that prohibits a member from viewing committee records, whether they are in a member's file or not.

Well, I provided the statute that gives the Association the authority to withhold such information (again, I agree with you regarding architectural files, but that doesn't change the statute). I also understand that you believe a different interpretation of that statute. Hence, you have two differing interpretations of the same statute. When there is a difference in opinion on the interpretation, the Association can seek a legal opinion and abide by that or try to work out a compromise between the parties involved. The other option is for one of the parties to file legal action for a ruling by a court on which interpretation is correct.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 5:01 AM

Membership oversight is one way to prevent the kind of variance and grandfathering bs that has been going on for several years now.

I agree. I also provided you options of other records you could request that may provide you with that information without looking at the actual applications. Sort of working around the law by working within the law.

Quote:
Posted By CfD on 09/26/2014 5:01 AM

Also, as an example, Colorado has language in their statutes that specifically requires architectural approvals to be produced to hoa members making a request. Wouldn't surprise me if other states remove the gray area and follow this example down the road.

That might be. However, it likely won't happen in VA for a long time. This is because, as I recently learned, two legislature representatives (one in each house) belong to legal firms that fight HOAs for members and gray area in the statutes is part of the way they earn a living.

This is why, depending on the County you live in within VA, you may or may not be able to impose monetary penalties for infractions of the CC&Rs (regardless if your CC&Rs allow that or not).
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Thanks again for the feedback. Would definitely like to learn more about legislators fighting "for" members in HOAs.

Again, I don't disagree with what the statute says can be withheld from members, I'm saying approved arch apps shouldn't be private, and I think you agree.

My general feeling is nothing we do to the exterior of our lots is private. And except for executive session, nothing in a board or committee meeting is private. In fact, I believe the following statute makes it clear that anything the board or committee is considering in a properly noticed meeting should be made available for inspection to members.

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+55-510.1

๐ŸŽฏ You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • โœ“ Ask follow-up questions
  • โœ“ Share your experience
  • โœ“ Get expert advice
  • โœ“ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account โ†’

โšก Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here