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KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Our new reserves analyst and his Reserves Study show that our HOA now is only 36% funded. The reason is that he found about $2 million more in components than our two previous analysts: $7 mill. vs. $ 5mill.

I've carefully compared the three studies--very tough to do as different spreadsheets, layouts, etc. were used by all three. I think I've found about $1.5 mill that we didn't reserve for previously, and yeah, probably should reserve for (one is almost $1 million)

Anyway, at our August board mtg., directors panicked and voted by a 4-3 majority to increase assessments for '15 about 8-9% per high rise condo unit with a $10k a month increase in contributions to reserves. (213 units)

One director attended this meeting by phone and later said he really couldn't hear all directors. i know I could not always hear him. Anyway, he, I & the other one who voted against this increase are trying to think of more palatable ways to better fund our reserves.

Instead, for instance, of such a big month's increase that will only slowly bolster our % funded, we could do a special assessment. Or 1/2 assessment, 1/2 increase.

But our GM has said privately that lenders hate special assessments. And others have said that lenders hate underfunded reserves. Are both right? if so, which do they hate the most?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why would they hate special assessments??? Makes no sense. Special assessments mean collecting money to pay bills. What they hate is high rates of rental property, open liens, and debt ratio overload.

You are talking RESERVES which is like "savings" for your HOA. Reserves are there to AVOID going to lenders to cover capital repairs. The more reserves you have the less likely to even need a loan.

It is more of a concern over your everyday budget, collection rate, and collection practices. Reserves are just the cherry on top of securing a better loan if needed. More reserves less you borrow and better loan rate. Having no reserves at all and always collecting special assessments to make bills any lender would hate.

Former HOA President
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Kerry,

If I was a mortgage lender and asked for financials I could see whether your reserves were adequately funded (in my opinion). But how would I know about a special assessment that has yet to happen and may not occur at all? For that matter, how would I know about past special assessments?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
In my opinion, underfunded reserves shows a potential special assessment in the future. A special assessment proves that the reserves were underfunded or budgetary issues were not addressed.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I hit submit too soon.

I wanted to add that you shouldn't worry about what lenders may or may not be concerned with. You, as a Director, need to make decisions on what is best for the Association.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/24/2014 8:56 PM
Our new reserves analyst and his Reserves Study show that our HOA now is only 36% funded. The reason is that he found about $2 million more in components than our two previous analysts: $7 mill. vs. $ 5mill.

I've carefully compared the three studies--very tough to do as different spreadsheets, layouts, etc. were used by all three. I think I've found about $1.5 mill that we didn't reserve for previously, and yeah, probably should reserve for (one is almost $1 million)

Anyway, at our August board mtg., directors panicked and voted by a 4-3 majority to increase assessments for '15 about 8-9% per high rise condo unit with a $10k a month increase in contributions to reserves. (213 units)

One director attended this meeting by phone and later said he really couldn't hear all directors. i know I could not always hear him. Anyway, he, I & the other one who voted against this increase are trying to think of more palatable ways to better fund our reserves.

Instead, for instance, of such a big month's increase that will only slowly bolster our % funded, we could do a special assessment. Or 1/2 assessment, 1/2 increase.

But our GM has said privately that lenders hate special assessments. And others have said that lenders hate underfunded reserves. Are both right? if so, which do they hate the most?


Kerry

I can address this in the morning.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
Kerry actually they dislike both. What banks really fear are the massive Special Assessments that cause homeowners to default on their loans, much like when all of the balloon payments came due on those nothing down loans that were so prevalent. Since the housing bubble burst, Fannie & Freddie put stricter loan guidelines in place which limit loans when reserves are underfunded, SA, percent of homeowner occupied units vs rentals, amount of units one individual can own, etc. And since a lot of banks resell their mortgages, surprise, surprise, many of them are following suit.

Although the amount of increase proposed is rather moderate, $47.00 per month or a $564.00 SA, which depending on the financial strength of your fellow homeowners, it could be seen as an annoyance or a real hardship coming up with a lump sum. Even maxing out the percentage of what you are allowed to SA for, it's going to take a few years to make up for your shortfall: $2,000,000.00 divided by 213 is approx $9,390.00 per unit or 16 years.


Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Kerry

You are really talking about 2 sides of the same coin. Market prices have not historically been affected by reserve inadequacies. Yet today's buyer could be burdened in the future with a funding shortfall from the past - no matter if it comes in the form of a regular fee increment or a special assessment.

Whether the lender prefers underfunded reserves or special assessments will depend on what formula they use to determine if the buyer can cover the carrying costs of owning the home. Under post-meltdown regs, there is now a burden on the lender to validate affordability.

I don't think the calculations for the impact of underfunding or special assessments are standardized within the lending industry. So no matter what formula the lender uses, the risk that the lender doesn't adequately plan for the reserve shortfall is a risk that the lenders don't want.

On the question of which approach would be preferable to the HOA, you can cover the shortfall with a one time assessment of approximately $10k per unit or approximately $50 per month for 12-15 years. If I was in your shoes, I would focus on affordability for existing owners and not on buyers so long as you are putting at least 10% of assessments into reserves (the primary criteria used to measure HOAs under the new lending regs).

Based on the fact that one of the directors could not hear or be heard adequately, you should have a valid claim that the meeting was defective and the vote needs to be re-taken. The outcome of the original vote is irrelevant if the remote member could not adequately influence the other voters.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 09/24/2014 11:07 PM

I wanted to add that you shouldn't worry about what lenders may or may not be concerned with. You, as a Director, need to make decisions on what is best for the Association.

Good point. The lenders are not your constituency. Whether units are easy to finance or hard to finance is not your board's problem.

It also seems that much of the concern about the financial health of associations comes from the FHA. Since the FHA finances the bottom rung of home buyers I would not lose any sleep that those who are on the fringe may not be able to get a mortgage in my community.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Look at it this way....
Lets say you had a special assessment of $25k and the person put the condo up for sale for $100k. The buyer would likely want a $25k reduction and the assessment paid. So the unit sells for $75k. That is the comparable that all your other condos sales will be based on.

So the next person that sells, will likely have to sell at $75k and they still have a special assessment for $25k. Repeat everything I just said, and now the comp is $50k.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Interesting question and even more interesting responses! Personally, I would think this depends on the lender, but if I had to choose, I'd say underfunded reserves are more worrisome because they ultimately lead to special assessments.

Our reserves are in even worse shape that yours, but the Board is limited to increasing assessments up to 5% over the current year without homeowner approval. Before I left the board (I was treasurer), I suggested that we gradually increase the percentage of assessments that went to reserves. It was 9% at the time, so I said we should increase it by 1% every year until we hit 15%, then hold at 15% for a few years and see where we were.

Unfortunately, we're so far behind now, that even this approach probably won't help us avoid a special assessment, but you have to start somewhere. I'd gotten this idea from another HOA, which included annual fee increases of a certain percentage (3%, I think) for the next five years or so. Our association started planning the 2015 budget this month and has to approve it and send it to the homeowners by December 1 - I wasn't at the September meeting, but will attend the next two to remind the board why they really can't hold assessments at the current rate as some have suggested. Yes, it would be nice not to have to worry about increases, but I believe the die has been cast and we have no choice but to accept fee increases of at least 3% for the next 20 years (at a minimum) will be the rule, not the exception.

You might want to try this approach, working with some of the percentages you mentioned. This way, homeowners would know in advance what to expect and plan accordingly. In the meantime, be sure to evaluate the performance of your reserve investments to see if there isn't another place you could put the money where it'll grow, yet protect the principal in the account. Couple that with doing some hard analysis of your operating budget to see where you can save some money and you should be ok. Good luck!


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
FHA funding on new purchases went from around 5% in 2005 to around 30% in 2012. It's no longer just for the bottom rung.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 09/25/2014 3:13 AM
Kerry

On the question of which approach would be preferable to the HOA, you can cover the shortfall with a one time assessment of approximately $10k per unit or approximately $50 per month for 12-15 years. If I was in your shoes, I would focus on affordability for existing owners and not on buyers so long as you are putting at least 10% of assessments into reserves (the primary criteria used to measure HOAs under the new lending regs).


Excellent point! When it comes to affordability, I was always more concerned with the Association having enough money to provide routine maintenance consistently, funding reserves properly (so we'd have the money for future repairs and not need special assessments or loans) and making repairs when they became necessary. I'd rather spend on a small repair now than delay and have to pay a lot more later. Everything goes up no matter what you do, so it's easier to concentrate on making sure you're getting the biggest bang for your buck. Of course, that requires a long, thoughtful look at the numbers and the story behind them, and we know this interferes with watching the latest episode of Survivor or The Voice!

Too often, people yell about assessments being "too high," but never explain how they came to this conclusion. Most of the time they'll say "X community pays a lot less than we do" or "this community looks a mess - where's the money going?" The second comment may be valid if the board really is wasting money, but I always challenged homeowners to bring me X community's budget and contact information for its treasurer so we could compare notes and perhaps see if there was something our community might adapt to save money. Otherwise, I don't care what X community pays because I don't live there.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Thanks to everyone--haven't had time to read your replies carefully, but hope to later today or tomorrow AM. I WILL respond, so keep advice coming! Probably need to do some thinking first.
LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 09/25/2014 8:01 AM
FHA funding on new purchases went from around 5% in 2005 to around 30% in 2012. It's no longer just for the bottom rung.

No, it's still the bottom rung. It's just that there are a lot more of us in the bottom tier.

Full Disclosure: My wife and I bought a home in 2011. We thought our credit was pretty good but the FICO score put us just three points above no mortgage at all. We purchased a foreclosed home through FHA with just 3% down. Our home is now worth double what it was when we bought it, so after just three years our equity in the home is roughly 50%. We could not have done it without FHA.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LarryB13 on 09/25/2014 8:18 PM
Posted By NpS on 09/25/2014 8:01 AM
FHA funding on new purchases went from around 5% in 2005 to around 30% in 2012. It's no longer just for the bottom rung.


No, it's still the bottom rung. It's just that there are a lot more of us in the bottom tier.

Full Disclosure: My wife and I bought a home in 2011. We thought our credit was pretty good but the FICO score put us just three points above no mortgage at all. We purchased a foreclosed home through FHA with just 3% down. Our home is now worth double what it was when we bought it, so after just three years our equity in the home is roughly 50%. We could not have done it without FHA.

First, congratulations on your successful investment.

However, I don't agree with your reference to the bottom rung.

Back in 2005 to 2008, all you needed was a pulse to get a home mortgage. FICO score were being fudged. No one was overseeing the abuses. Those who had to borrow from the FHA were truly the bottom rung.

But by 2012, sources of mortgage funding dried up - all the crazy money had dropped out of the market. The FHA's jump in market share of 25% in a mere 7 years was phenomenal. People in many tiers had to turn to the FHA for funding because the FHA became the only game in town.

There are many people who have substantial resources (not in the bottom rung) but are cash poor. In 2005, they wouldn't have needed the FHA. In 2012, they would.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Thank you again for your replies. I still haven't looked again at a certain part of our reserves study, but for now I'll reply where I can.

Tim points out I should be most concerned about what's best for my HOA and I am! Down a ways on the list of directors' obligations, at least per our MC CCO/President, are items like curb appeal and marketability, which is why I asked the question. Our board has taken care of all of the more important items like protection of our common areas, maintenance, adequate operating budget. 37% of our condo units are tenant occupied.

At 36% funded, our new analyst characterizes our risk of sp. assess. because of deferred maintenance risk at "medium."

Eliminating 3 very inexpensive 900 sq. ft. outliers, the av. sales price ranges $500,000-$900,000. We do have several upper level town home style homes, or top story single level units that sell for $1 mill. + . Dues vary based on sq. ft. The proposed increase of $52 to $80 per month includes about a 3-1/2% increase to our operating budget.

Many Owners are retired now & bought their condos when the building opened in '01 for that purpose and moved in even years later. And until '04, the prices were reasonable by ocean & marina views- nice-urban-neighborhood, great- location standards. Such a large dues increase will be difficult, I think, for many such folk.

A special assessment of $1,500 per unit (N =213) would help us achieve about 40% funded almost immediately. (I think--I'm very weak at math.) We could still continue to fund our reserves at $48,000 per month. In thinking about the entire community, $1,500 will be a lot all at once for some, but I think credit cards can help spread it out just as if it were a dues increase. So, following, NpS, i believe a special assessment of $1,200-$1,500 per unit would be most 'affordable."

The sole purpose of the special assessment would be to bolster reserves, not conduct any major repairs or replacements, i.e, we're not "in trouble." Over the past 3 years we've replaced some very expensive components with construction defect settlement funds, and they should last a long time.

I should add that for the past 8 or so years, 40% of all sales in my (compact, vertical urban) zip code are all cash.

There's still a number I must look up, but much later.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Kerry

Would you mind sharing:
1. How much Reserve funds are you sitting on?
2. How much your reserve study says you should spend each year for the next 10 years?

The difficulty I have with one-size-fits-all "percentage funding" is that it isn't that great an indicator of how urgent your needs are to make changes.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I don't see how curb appeal and marketability are reserve elements.

Curb appeal comes through maintaining common elements. Common elements would be things like painting the outside of the building, trees and specific landscape elements, power washing the exterior of the buildings and sidewalks, etc. All of these would affect curb appeal and would be appropriate reserve components. However, creating a curb appeal reserve item sounds more like a slush fund to do what ever a board things should be done.

Marketability also comes through maintaining the common elements and, if needed, providing security.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I must have written that poorly. Our MC's prez asserts that marketability & curb appeal are Board obligations, but they're not at the top of any list of boards' obligations. This "ranking," if you will, is not my point about our reserves, but about an HOA's overall health. I'll try to explain better tomorrow.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/26/2014 4:25 PM
37% of our condo units are tenant occupied.

Have you thought about distinguishing between owner occupied and rentals in your fee structure? In my experience, landlords have a better capability to absorb incremental costs because they can usually be passed on.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/26/2014 4:25 PM
At 36% funded, our new analyst characterizes our risk of sp. assess. because of deferred maintenance risk at "medium." ... A special assessment of $1,500 per unit (N =213) would help us achieve about 40% funded almost immediately.

What would the move from 36% to 40% accomplish for you? Yes you will bring in more than $200k immediately, but as you said, you don't have an immediate need. Going from 36 to 40 seems like a "feel good" measure, and IMO not enough to warrant the disruption of a special assessment.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/26/2014 4:25 PM
Dues vary based on sq. ft.

Square footage is probably not a good indicator of Wear and tear. Do you have the flexibility to use a different cost allocation criteria?

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/26/2014 4:25 PM
I think credit cards can help spread it out just as if it were a dues increase.

Never liked relying on credit card payments. Some people pay 26% or more on CC balances. It is the most expensive form of easy financing and can cause it's own problems.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Nps: 1. "How much Reserve funds are you sitting on?" KL: $3,000,000. Our new analyst says we have $7,223,000 in components (vs $5 mill.+ est. by previous two analysts).

NpS: " How much your reserve study says you should spend each year for the next 10 years?" KL: He projects we'll need to spend $7,110,000.

NpS: "Square footage is probably not a good indicator of Wear and tear. Do you have the flexibility to use a different cost allocation criteria?"

KL: No, it's a part of our CC&Rs and cannot be changed without a supermajority of owner vote in favor. The sf variable, btw, only applies to gas, water and building fire/damage insurance. The developer's or someone's assumption was that larger units consume more of those shared HOA expenses.

Hmmm, our MC's chief accountant was sitting with us running numbers during the time we directors discussed the budget at an open meeting. It's hard to imagine that such a wide variation ($52-80 more per unit per mo.) would apply to an increase that's hugely due to reserves. I think I'm confusing myself!

NpS: "Never liked relying on credit card payments. Some people pay 26% or more on CC balances. It is the most expensive form of easy financing and can cause it's own problems."

KL: Good point though I think some have reverse mortgages, which'd help. Or, in reference to an earlier question of yours, NpS, perhaps our MC would let us set up a payment plan for those who might need it. Could be landlords are in good shape--rents are very high in our towers. Some H/O's who moved and rented out their units during the recession have, by now, either sold once the market improved; a few moved back in.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Looking even more closely at the analyst's lengthy detailed reports, he (well, his firm's program) asserts that 20% of HOAs that are 36% funded experience specula assessment or deferred maintenance.

NpS, I didn't answer one of questions properly:The estimate varies each year. It's about how much per year the analyst says we'll need to spend in the next 10 years. He sees: '15--$1,305,334*; '16-- $316,447; '17--$118,174; '18, $188,851; '19--787,564.

*Need a complete first-time ext. bldg. paint (2-25 story towers) and coating of our garage floors (190,000 sf)
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/27/2014 2:02 PM
The sf variable, btw, only applies to gas, water and building fire/damage insurance. The developer's or someone's assumption was that larger units consume more of those shared HOA expenses.

Those all seem like operating expenses. If that's it, then your reserves are strictly on a per unit basis.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/27/2014 2:02 PM
perhaps our MC would let us set up a payment plan for those who might need it.

I like an MC payment plan much better than using credit cards. The cost of money will be much cheaper and more will go towards reserves rather than interest payments.

But - but - but - If HOs are going to be able to pay over time, then why set up a separate payment when you can achieve the same result by raising your regular fees.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 09/27/2014 7:57 PM
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/27/2014 2:02 PM
The sf variable, btw, only applies to gas, water and building fire/damage insurance. The developer's or someone's assumption was that larger units consume more of those shared HOA expenses.


Those all seem like operating expenses. If that's it, then your reserves are strictly on a per unit basis.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/27/2014 2:02 PM
perhaps our MC would let us set up a payment plan for those who might need it.


I like an MC payment plan much better than using credit cards. The cost of money will be much cheaper and more will go towards reserves rather than interest payments.

But - but - but - If HOs are going to be able to pay over time, then why set up a separate payment when you can achieve the same result by raising your regular fees.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/27/2014 6:37 PM
Looking even more closely at the analyst's lengthy detailed reports, he (well, his firm's program) asserts that 20% of HOAs that are 36% funded experience specula assessment or deferred maintenance.

Ok, but so what. I guess that means that 80% of HOAs that are 36% funded don't experience special assessments or deferred maintenance. It is a statistic, but it is not necessarily predictive of anything in your situation.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/27/2014 6:37 PM
how much per year the analyst says we'll need to spend in the next 10 years. He sees: '15--$1,305,334*; '16-- $316,447; '17--$118,174; '18, $188,851; '19--787,564.

The great news is that you're not up against a wall. You need to spend less than 2.7M in the next 5 years and you have 3M in the bank right now. What that means is that you are not under the gun to make a special assessment. In 5 years, the $50 per month will bring in more than $600k. And if needed, you can tweak that some more. You have time.

There is another reason to avoid Special Assessments. A Special Assessment is often considered an indicator of poor planning practices. They always need to be explained. And confidence in the Board is usually negatively affected.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Hey Kerry

I forgot to mention the most obvious reason that you probably shouldn't do a Special Assessment this year.

You should do a Reserve Study Update in 2 or 3 years. While the list of components and their projected useful lives aren't likely to change between now and the update, 3 RS estimates could be quite a bit different by then: interest earned, inflation rate, and component replacement date. Any one of these could have a significant effect on your percent funding calculations.

You should probably have the update done by the same firm who did your most recent report. You will avoid the headache of trying to compare different looking reports done by different companies.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
A special assessment would be viewed more negatively by lenders as it can assumed the community suffered a financial emergency crisis, which is most likely caused by poor budgeting.

Higher HOA monthly dues matter less and are more impressive if lenders know there is a plan to substantially increase Reserve Funds using the new monthly cash flow.

Lenders hate special assessments AND underfunded reserves (because they spark special assessments).

Support your HOA board's decision to increase monthly dues to fuel Reserve Fund growth. You have a need for more savings and dues revenue is the responsible and transparent way to budget and change your revenue/savings trajectory.

Palatable solutions don't exist....dues increases stink.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Thanks again to all and especially NpS. It really will, btw, be about $60-65 a month on average. And now I certainly need to check to see if our MC's lead accountant did the math right. All I can do is ask as I can't do it myself.

this is annoying, by the way, because we do have a Finance Comm., a board treasurer and two additional board members who have backgrounds in finance and/or securities analysis. One is an astute investor and makes the best investments possible--I do trust her. But they do not analyze anything and never question any of the numbers that we're given. My background has nothing to do with finance, numbers, etc., but I'm the one who finds financial errors. The new reserves analysts, for instance, attributed too many components to one of our specula benefit areas that would've cost them more per month than the correct attribution. (Yes, our special benefits areas make our finances even more complex.)

Anyway, I'm going to follow NpS's ultimate advice, and Kelly's too. I still will, however, ask the president to call a special meeting on the budget due to a teleconference director not hearing us and vice versa during the budget approval meeting. He's back in town. There were some additions approved to the operating budget that we might be able to reduce.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/29/2014 4:59 PM
The new reserves analysts, for instance, attributed too many components to one of our specula benefit areas that would've cost them more per month than the correct attribution. (Yes, our special benefits areas make our finances even more complex.)

Kerry

When your board meets on the budget again, I suggest that you introduce the idea of changing your allocation criteria.

As noted earlier, landlords generally can pass the costs on where resident-owner cannot. Also generally speaking, tenants tend to cause more damage/deterioration than owner-residents. Tenants usually behave differently than resident-owners because the thought of who has to pay for replacement isn't even on their radar screens. There is something to be said for pride in ownership.

The fact that you have a special benefits system already means that you won't have to overcome the hurdle of "we can't do that because everyone must be treated equally." While everyone does need to be treated fairly, that does not always mean equally - and your board already knows this if you have a special benefits system in place.

The financial impact could be significant. Since you are split roughly 2/3 owner-occupied 1/3 tenant-occupied, and since you have plenty of time to work through this discussion and its potential implications (including organizing doc changes if needed), I suggest putting it forward now.

You might wind up changing your reserve allocation costs or you might wind up creating a new fee for services that impacts landlords/tenants more than resident-owners. Either way, you would be reallocating expense away from those who can least afford to cover the cost toward those who are most likely to be the cause of the cost increases. That approach is always a winner in my book.

Best of luck.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Interesting thought, NpS although I'm not so sure we could do it without an amendment to our CC&Rs. It's there that the two special benefit areas are defined and were written by the developer. There also is a mechanism by which to set up another special benefit area, but it seems to involve physical criteria for which a "Landlords Special Benefit Area" wouldn't apply.

Just one problem is that it's not unusual for owners to rent out their units, then move back in for a while then move out again. In addition, we have some owners who live here for the three summer months or for four-five winter months and rent out their units the times that are residing in their other homes. Some of this transitioning is starting to happen right nows as folks move back to Florida, TX, AZ, while others move back here from the northwest or Northeast.

Here, I can agree that our MC has a bit more paperwork from landlords as they must always register their tenants, files must be kept, but as high rises, the typical "pride of ownership" that might be visible in other communities isn't different here between renters & owner-occupants.

I really appreciate your thoughtful a advice, NpS.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
My pleasure Kerry.

Point well taken re high rise pride.

If you kick around the idea of a registration fee whenever the residents in a unit change, you can probably shave off a few bucks from the monthlies.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Renter Fees could work here, NpS. Now, we already charge anyone who's moving a fee to cover the cost of the extra security office we hire to monitor our lobby doors for the movers. And there's a refundable deposit too for any damage that might be done on the move route.

"Reasonable" & "merited" fees would have mainly do with the paperwork. There are registration forms, fobs distribution & records, stickers for car windshields/car registration, and bicycle decals (if needed). There also are elevator reservation forms for our Asst. Mgr., her time checking the overs' liability insurance. Probably some odds & ends I'm not award of too.

Looks like it would be legal in CA:

"RENTER FEES
If done properly, it appears that landlord members of an association can be charged a "renter's fee" for the burden their tenants place on the association. In the case of Ken Watts v. Oak Shores Community Association a five-week bench trial on this issue resulted in a decision that the association fully justified its rental fees. It must be noted that this is a lower court decision so it cannot be cited for legal authority."

"RECOMMENDATION: As long as an HOA can show that fees related to renters are reasonable and merited (and not plucked out of thin air) this case demonstrates that such fees can survive a legal challenge. Boards should be cautioned not to levy fees on renters "just because." They should consult with legal counsel to evaluate if the association has a legitimate basis for such fees."

Read more: Renter Fees http://www.davis-stirling.com/RenterFees/tabid/3401/Default.aspx#ixzz3EwRecggW
from Davis-Stirling.com by Adams Kessler PLC.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Looks promising. GL.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Kerry
Get copies of pages 10-13 of the Watts v Oak Shores decision (referenced by the DS page you cited) for your board. IMO, it's a treasure trove for your discussions.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Do lenders even care?

It seems to me that as long as Sales Price <= Appraisal that lenders are ok with it. Through the initial financing, the refis, and everything else (including years on the HOA board), I have never seen a lender inquire about anything pertaining to the HOA finances. Does this actually happen?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Dave

In our FHA purchases, our Declarant just filled out a basic form. When I asked him he said, no big thing.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
It's a big deal for FHA mortgages on condos during the Great Recession. Same for the delinquency rate of dues collections where anything over about 15% delinquency, on a rolling basis, could prevent FHA mortgages from getting approved.

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