Board Peeking in Homes, then Requesting Clean up INSIDE

Started by KarenC15 • 17 replies • 2651 views

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KarenC15 (Florida)
Posts: 118

Posted:

Two residents recently approached me advising that the board members are walking singularly and sometimes in quorum (unadvertised) around the back of our townhomes looking into patios and insisting owners "clean" the space. They had done this in the past by looking into garages when the door is open and sending official letters asking the owner clean the garage. Now, they have called and personally approached residents to tell them cleaning the space is REQUIRED under HOB obligation.

Our patios and driveways are attached to our townhomes. In the case of garages and patios, these are not only attached but fully enclosed space as part of our homes. Are homeowners required to clean their inner space to accommodate board members' preferences? In the case of messy patios, one is unscreened and the other is fully screened with FULL coverage blinds to 2" to the ground. The board had to almost lay down and peek inside to see the room was messy because it is not visible from the green.

My question is on the rights of board members to 1) meet in quorum to walk around the property and do inspections and approach residents during that process (which no homeowner is aware is happening or invited to attend); 2) use their authority as board members to inspect the inner part of homes through visible openings (like under blinds, through screens or when a door is open) and demand a resident accommodates their personal demand.

In the past, a few of these board members have done "peeping" in windows when walking around and one has binoculars to look into second story windows. Dealing with people who think this is ok is beyond frustrating and it's hard for me to believe it's permissible under the law.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

Hatred is contagious, so one should work to avoid it.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Under PA law and my HOA rules, it would be acceptable for the Board to delegate these responsibilities to a sub-set of the Board, or a committee, or a committee that includes one or more Board members.

But if these Board members are taking it on themselves to act on behalf of the Board without specific authorization from the Board, then they have gone rogue.

Under the current arrangement, there is nothing to reign them in when they over-step boundaries.

I would demand that they prepare and submit guidelines for line-by-line approval by the full Board. That's the way I would deal with a committee and I see no reason to treat this group any differently.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

KarenC15 (Florida)
Posts: 118

Posted:

Thanks. Since you didn't mention the peeping issue; can I assume that you believe this is an activity sanctioned by the corporate or HOA laws? I realize that there might be restrictions on remodeling an interior space, etc., but I'm having the hardest time with my neighbors being asked to arrange their garages and patios to the liking of certain board members--and that being enforced with the full authority of the HOA.

Hatred is contagious, so one should work to avoid it.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KarenC15 on 09/09/2014 9:20 PM
Thanks. Since you didn't mention the peeping issue; can I assume that you believe this is an activity sanctioned by the corporate or HOA laws? I realize that there might be restrictions on remodeling an interior space, etc., but I'm having the hardest time with my neighbors being asked to arrange their garages and patios to the liking of certain board members--and that being enforced with the full authority of the HOA.

I never got to the peeping (which I consider offensive and one of the best ways to alienate the community) because I was addressing the structural question - Under what circumstances can this group's behavior become legitimate? My answer was that you need some document that is signed off by the full board that describes acceptable behavior and limits inappropriate behavior. Sorry if that message wasn't clear.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

KarenC15 (Florida)
Posts: 118

Posted:

Thanks. Yes, I see what you are saying. If they set up a committee and advise members of its role (via minutes at least), then it could perhaps be a function. Right now, they just email and meet whenever to discuss board business. The meetings are redundant because they've all, already discussed everything.

Hatred is contagious, so one should work to avoid it.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Karen I would suggest you become familiar with not only your CC&Rs but also Florida's Condo statutes. Do they have the right to do this? I highly doubt it but busy bodies are busy bodies. I would suggest you contact your local police dept on whether or not it constitutes a crime. I suspect that answer would involve whether it was done from common areas or if they trespassed onto limited common areas to do their "inspections". Even if they do send out violation letters, what is the penalty? If it is a fine or suspension of privileges then they would first have to hold a hearing before the fine committee who would have to approve it: 718.303 Obligations of owners and occupants; remedies.—

(3) (b) A fine or suspension may not be imposed unless the association first provides at least 14 days’ written notice and an opportunity for a hearing to the unit owner and, if applicable, its occupant, licensee, or invitee. The hearing must be held before a committee of other unit owners who are neither board members nor persons residing in a board member’s household. If the committee does not agree, the fine or suspension may not be imposed.

FL 718:

The above is my official answer, however the sarcastic side of me insisted I add if it were me, I would gather a group of my fellow homeowners and go "walkies" around the Board members units and give them a taste of their own medicine.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

In our community, if we can see a problem from the street or sidewalk, the homeowner will be notified. If your board members are peeping in windows (binoculars or not), or poking their heads through an open door (garage or otherwise), I think that's inappropriate and needs to stop.

I also live in a townhouse community and while we usually don't care what's going on inside the house, excessive junk on the patio, with or without an enclosed fence, could be an issue because rats and other vermin could use it as a hiding place and spread their madness to the neighbors. There could also be a problem with standing water accumulating which could become a breeding ground for mosquitos (West Nile, anyone??)

Finally, we've had homeowners in our community who've let small trees and grass grow inside the patio to the point that if anyone wanted to use it, they'd need a lawnmower and a few heavy knives to cut the stuff down and I'd worry about the small trees becoming bigger ones and threatening the structure of the unit.

As for the garage, homeowners might want to be reminded that excessive crap in there can also lead to pest infestation problems and if that spreads to a neighboring house or houses, they might be held responsible for extermination expenses. I've also heard that if the garage door stays up, water and other debris can get in and cause mold.

Perhaps your board should run a few information articles in the newsletter about this stuff and modify their approaches as to when a messy garage or patio will become an issue. Messy houses really aren't a good look and if it creates pest infestation problems for the neighbors, the homeowners will be held responsible. They should also have a chat with their attorneys about trespassing so they'll understand what is and isn't appropriate and draft the policy and procedures accordingly. Good luck!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

To NPS reply, if the Board is also the ARC then they would be within their rights to address issues and not be considered going rogue, correct?

From what I read, they want the backyard to be cleaned? They surely are not telling you to clean up the inside of your home, but I can see why one would feel they are if they want the yard cleaned up.

If neighbors in a townhouse can see a neighbors trashed backyard then they would have a right to report what they determine to be a problem. If they let trash build up, that is a problem for everyone in a townhouse community. It's no different for a detached home than an attached one when it comes to a clean yard.

They certainly can't tell you how to arrange your furniture and I am confident without being on the ground there that they are not asking them to do that.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

In an HOA in which we formerly resided, the CC&Rs explicated stated the purpose of the garage was to park vehicles and it was not to be used for any other purpose. Enforcing such language would obviously be a headache, was the HOA to call someone out for storing a lawn mower or bicycles in the garage? Further, the Architectural Committee could hardly contact homeowners to ask for a "garage inspection".

However, in a couple of instances in which the garage door was often open, and the homeowner claimed they did not have a place to park an antique or not running vehicle which was not licensed for use on public roads, and which therefore could not be parked on the street or in the driveway, the committee reviewed the language with the homeowner and suggested they clean out the garage and move the vehicle inside, which was done.

In summary, some governing documents do contain language regarding the garage. Further, both the CC&Rs of that HOA and the city property standards do address conditions on any part of the property, including behind enclosed fences. Conditions inside the home were not mentioned, other than there could be not more than three not related adults living in the home as a family unit.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CyrstalB on 09/10/2014 6:38 AM
To NPS reply, if the Board is also the ARC then they would be within their rights to address issues and not be considered going rogue, correct?

From what I read, they want the backyard to be cleaned? They surely are not telling you to clean up the inside of your home, but I can see why one would feel they are if they want the yard cleaned up.

If neighbors in a townhouse can see a neighbors trashed backyard then they would have a right to report what they determine to be a problem. If they let trash build up, that is a problem for everyone in a townhouse community. It's no different for a detached home than an attached one when it comes to a clean yard.

They certainly can't tell you how to arrange your furniture and I am confident without being on the ground there that they are not asking them to do that.

To me, the organizational question is whether the Board has delegated the inspection and punitive role to less than all the members of the Board.

If the answer is yes, a committee has been formed, and that committee cannot act without the express authority of the full Board. This is especially so when it involves potential intrusion into private space. IMO, the reputation of the entire Board is placed at risk.

If the answer is no, then the full Board is the ARC, not a couple of rogue vigilantes. And depending on state laws, etc. actions by anything less than the full Board could violate transparency requirements.

PA does not have open meeting laws. My HOA Board has reached a unanimous consensus with the following elements:

1. We walk the grounds for non-threatening reasons. Our HOs usually see less than all the Board members touring the property with some contractor at least once a month. Those walks never result in an automatic violation notice to anyone.

2. Our MC contract does not include any on-site inspection by a PM. That would be a red flag that violation notices are soon to follow.

3. We do not budget for income from fines.

4. If and only if a Board member who is walking the property sees something that is an imminent danger, we notify the HO immediately about the corrective action that needs to be taken.

5. For anything else, we wait for a complaint from a neighbor. In a townhouse community, the neighbors always know who the hoarders are, whose yards are messy, who's storing something dangerous in their garage, etc. If the neighbor is concerned enough, she will let us know. We send an email that says: "We have received a complaint that ... Please try to be considerate ... If there's anything you think we should know about ..., we would appreciate hearing from you." Over time we have learned who the chronic complainers are and who the chronic offenders are. It is rarely widespread.

We didn't start with this unanimous consensus. We started with a simple decision that we don't want to be seen as the bad guys anymore.

The reason that I try to avoid the general conversation about peeking is that everyone has a different expectation on where the boundaries should be set, and the complaints about peeking will be different depending on the general practices of the HOA. For example, if a homeowner expects that fines and/or finger wagging is likely to follow a site inspection, then a lot more people will be complaining about peeking. It's human nature.

Finally, I don't think it matters if the inspectors are standing on common ground. If the rogue Board members are aggressively acting in a policing capacity, someone is likely to feel threatened by their presence. And IMO, the Board has too much to lose by letting this practice continue.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

I actually believe that if the board members are entering onto the home owners property and not viewing (or inspecting) from the common areas then they (those board members/committee members) are violating the spirit and intent of the CC&R's or other generally accepted rules.

If the items are attached to the basic structure of the home, then they have no right to dictate what an owner can or can't do inside the home.

There was a case (I can't remember the case number) that went all the way up to the Supreme Court about an HOA that had a no pets rule in their CC&R's. A person kept in-door cats. Never allowed them out (as they were de-clawed I think). Anyway the HOA spotted the cat on a window sill and sued- case went all the way up and the ruling was that we are still entitled to some aspect of our Home is our castle rule.

The HOA can dictate color of home and that you have winder coverings/shaded/curtains, they can mandate certain landscaping etc but the line ends at the doors & Windows. The HOA can not rule or dictate what a person does or how they live, inside the unit/home.

There are some notable exceptions such as noise and noxious fumes that are a health and safety issue to other neighbors but these are few and far between. Based on what you posted, it is unreasonable for the busy bodies to be trespassing to inspect something that can't be seen from common areas.

In my opinion, the "Seen from Common Area test" should be the rule and consideration for these sorts of issues. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist...

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredO on 09/15/2014 4:32 PM
In my opinion, the "Seen from Common Area test" should be the rule and consideration for these sorts of issues. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist...

IMO, you are mixing distinct and separate issues:
1. Can you restrict what goes on inside the house?
2. Can you enforce a restriction when the violation isn't visible from the common area?

While I am not a fan of many pet restrictions, I don't think you need to see an animal to know one is inside a house. If a HOA has a pet restriction that they want to enforce, I don't think they need to actually see the animal.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

ValerieS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 244

Posted:

If I saw someone peeping in my windows, I would call the police. There are laws protecting reasonable expectation of privacy. This sounds like a criminal matter.

FredO (California)
Posts: 198

Posted:

NPS,

you said:

IMO, you are mixing distinct and separate issues:
1. Can you restrict what goes on inside the house?
2. Can you enforce a restriction when the violation isn't visible from the common area?

While I am not a fan of many pet restrictions, I don't think you need to see an animal to know one is inside a house. If a HOA has a pet restriction that they want to enforce, I don't think they need to actually see the animal.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Ok, I get your point on the mixing issues. My understanding is that for number 1, per the US Supreme Court Ruling, NO, no HOA can restrict what goes on inside of a home. If the garages and porches are attached to the home, then that ruling applies to those structures.

Now on number 2; this is the expectation of privacy issue. My governing documents stipulate that I cannot park a vehicle, boat, RV or trailer in my fenced in side yard if that item can be seen from anywhere in the common properties or blocks a neighbors view.

I would have to say that if the members of the HOA have to trespass on private property in order to view or check for any violation, if they cannot see it from common areas they are wrong.

We have a new NAZI regime in place with some old RE-treads recently re-appointed to our ACC. They are going around doing early morning inspections of everyone's properties. Last time these persons were on the ACC, I caught one of them in my private side yard looking to see if I had any violations in my side and backyards. I yelled for her to stay put while I grabbed for the shotgun to hold her under arrest until the police arrived... she of course fled...
Now, she had to open my side yard gate to get in the side yard.... trespass and breaking and entering.... not what I want from my ACC members.

Our governing documents are clear that for the single family dwelling lots, the HOA has no rights to enter the grounds unless it is for an emergency that threatens neighboring properties or common areas. Then, and only then, for said emergency, they can only enter to mitigate possible damage to others homes. I have a creek that runs behind my property. Should that get blocked by a fallen tree or other debris and cause a flood (fat chance here in drought stricken CA), the HOA could enter my property to clear the creek and prevent possible flooding.

The HOA has no right to enter my property for the purpose of inspection for any violations. Period.

I would say that the rule is or has to be somewhat situational. In your example, a violation that might not be visible might include the one neighbor who had chickens in the backyard (in a coop). Our Documents specifically forbid farm animals to include chickens. based on viewing from common areas, we could not see them from the house placement. But all the neighbors heard and smelled them... from common areas. Result, the neighbor was asked to remove the chickens.
Maybe the rules should be amended to read (seen, heard or detected) from the common areas....?

basically, if the ACC or Board member cannot see or detect a violation from common area view, then that violation does not exist. Even in an HOA we're still supposed to have some rights.....?

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredO on 09/19/2014 12:25 PM
NPS,

you said:

IMO, you are mixing distinct and separate issues:
1. Can you restrict what goes on inside the house?
2. Can you enforce a restriction when the violation isn't visible from the common area?

While I am not a fan of many pet restrictions, I don't think you need to see an animal to know one is inside a house. If a HOA has a pet restriction that they want to enforce, I don't think they need to actually see the animal.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Ok, I get your point on the mixing issues. My understanding is that for number 1, per the US Supreme Court Ruling, NO, no HOA can restrict what goes on inside of a home. If the garages and porches are attached to the home, then that ruling applies to those structures.

*** Hi Fred. Not sure what ruling you are referring to.

*** My CC&Rs do not allow any resident to run a business out of a home. Are you saying that the US Supreme Court has invalidated that restriction because the activity occurs inside? I don't think so.

Now on number 2; this is the expectation of privacy issue. My governing documents stipulate that I cannot park a vehicle, boat, RV or trailer in my fenced in side yard if that item can be seen from anywhere in the common properties or blocks a neighbors view.

*** Mine too, except mine is more restrictive. Probably because yours are singles and mine are townhouses.

I would have to say that if the members of the HOA have to trespass on private property in order to view or check for any violation, if they cannot see it from common areas they are wrong.

*** All depends on what access is granted under the CC&Rs and the State statute. PA is governed by the UPCA. Under the UPCA, the Definition of Common Elements includes Common Facilities (property owned by the HOA) plus Controlled Facilities (property that may be privately owned but the HOA manages, controls, restricts, etc.) I'm not sure if anyone has tested the limits of Controlled Facilities in the courts, but the statute could give the HOA some very wide authority.

We have a new NAZI regime in place with some old RE-treads recently re-appointed to our ACC. They are going around doing early morning inspections of everyone's properties. Last time these persons were on the ACC, I caught one of them in my private side yard looking to see if I had any violations in my side and backyards. I yelled for her to stay put while I grabbed for the shotgun to hold her under arrest until the police arrived... she of course fled...
Now, she had to open my side yard gate to get in the side yard.... trespass and breaking and entering.... not what I want from my ACC members.

*** I'd give em hell too. But without knowing more, I couldn't say with certainty what rights the new regime has or doesn't have.

Our governing documents are clear that for the single family dwelling lots, the HOA has no rights to enter the grounds unless it is for an emergency that threatens neighboring properties or common areas. Then, and only then, for said emergency, they can only enter to mitigate possible damage to others homes. I have a creek that runs behind my property. Should that get blocked by a fallen tree or other debris and cause a flood (fat chance here in drought stricken CA), the HOA could enter my property to clear the creek and prevent possible flooding.

*** If that's what your docs say, great. Your CC&Rs have addressed the issue specifically. Ours are silent on the issue.

The HOA has no right to enter my property for the purpose of inspection for any violations. Period.

I would say that the rule is or has to be somewhat situational. In your example, a violation that might not be visible might include the one neighbor who had chickens in the backyard (in a coop). Our Documents specifically forbid farm animals to include chickens. based on viewing from common areas, we could not see them from the house placement. But all the neighbors heard and smelled them... from common areas. Result, the neighbor was asked to remove the chickens.
Maybe the rules should be amended to read (seen, heard or detected) from the common areas....?

*** Absolutely agree with you that the enforcement issue always tends to be situational. Personally, I wouldn't bother going to the expense of amending rules. Fools will always find a way to interpret your new rules to suit their personal priorities.

basically, if the ACC or Board member cannot see or detect a violation from common area view, then that violation does not exist. Even in an HOA we're still supposed to have some rights.....?

*** I can think of many examples that I would find disturbing if I knew were happening in my community. Storing gasoline in a garage - our houses could go up like tinder. Manufacturing crack - our houses could go up like tinder.

*** I realize that you have a different perspective living in a single rather than a townhouse. And those who live in a high rise probably have even more concerns about what their neighbors are doing.

*** But the problem is a common one. Overzealous enforcers who have no concept what it takes to build community. I feel bad for anyone who has to suffer through their nonsense.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Well I've heard of Boards using GoogleEarth to look for shed violations and there was a Texas HOA that hired a helicopter to inspect a member's property because they couldn't see the "improper" outbuildings any other way. I'm waiting to see advertisements for HOA Drones, perfect for the over zealous ACC.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

drones make EXCELLENT targets for BB guns

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