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Board harassing us with "violations"

Started by BR3 • 23 replies • 2039 views

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BR3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25
Posted:
My partner received a violation notice (we are not married, and I am the only person listed on the mortgage and am the owner of the unit). My partner received the notice of violation, but, as owner, I did not. The house rules state:

"The unit owner shall be notified of the alleged violation by the Association or its duly authorized agents. If the complaint is based on conduct of the unit owner's tenant, the tenant shall also be notified of the alleged violation."

Thus, the tenant was notified but the unit owner was not. I received a fine notice - this time addressed to the unit owner (myself). I ignored the original letter, because it was not addressed to me.

What are my options? I was thinking I'd write to the board that I'd like to see proof that they notified me of the alleged violation in accordance with our house rules. Should I add anything else?

As a side note, this is our second violation - and they are for insanely minor infractions, but that's not really the point of my post.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BR3 on 09/03/2014 6:48 AM

What are my options? I was thinking I'd write to the board that I'd like to see proof that they notified me of the alleged violation in accordance with our house rules. Should I add anything else?

Your options, in my opinion, are simple.

1) Pay the fine or
2) Ask for a hearing before the Board and at the hearing, ask that the fine be waived.

Remember that you can get more flies with honey and if you enter the hearing with a combative attitude, you likely won't have the fine waived.

You don't seem to dispute that your partner didn't violate a rule/covenant. Regardless if they did or did not, you (as the member) are responsible for the guest/tenant/family to comply with the rules/covenants. Therefore, the best thing to do is to comply with the rules or gather support to change them in order to avoid these issues in the future.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
BR3

Do I have this straight. You admit the violations existed but you are trying to get out of them based on notification of them?

Have you considered stopping the violations?
NancyG3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 342
Posted:
Dear BR3 - Do you also live in the same unit? My suggestion is to write the Board and advise them you are the owner and did not receive the notice of any violation and would appreciate in the future that they write direct to you. Ask them to send a copy of the previous notice to you as owner. No matter how minor the violation, if they are not in compliance with the declarations just correct them and move on. I would suggest that you and your partner read your declarations so you won't have any problems in the future. Good luck.
BR3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25
Posted:
This is all very helpful advice and I will politely remind the board of the protocol.

The violation was for brushing our dog in the hallway. The violation really should have been a courteous, "please don't do that again and will you sweep the hallway?" By the day, I did go out and vacuum the hallway.

Pet violations are 25$ per offense as stated in the house rules but we were fined for "noxious and offensive behavior" and fined 100$.

My next question is - shouldn't the violation not a pet violation and do I have any leeway here?

Obviously, we will work to avoid doing anything in violation, but please have a little compassion here - this certainly wasn't intentional.

Thanks all.
BR3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BR3 on 09/03/2014 7:15 AM
This is all very helpful advice and I will politely remind the board of the protocol.

The violation was for brushing our dog in the hallway. The violation really should have been a courteous, "please don't do that again and will you sweep the hallway?" By the way, I did go out and vacuum the hallway.

Pet violations are 25$ per offense as stated in the house rules but we were fined for "noxious and offensive behavior" and fined 100$.

My next question is - shouldn't the violation BE a pet violation and do I have any leeway here?

Obviously, we will work to avoid doing anything in violation, but please have a little compassion here - this certainly wasn't intentional.

Thanks all.

Sorry - lots of edits (I didn't proof)
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
Well, there is certainly nothing wrong with you asking whomever is sending the letter to clarify what is and what is not a "pet violation". Perhaps that would be a good topic for the next newsletter, if one is published.

You said the action which resulted in the violation notice was not intentional. Since brushing the dog in the hallway was a conscious decision by you or your partner, as opposed to a "pet accident", is there anything in the house rules about brushing animals in or on common areas? And, I would have to ask, why was the animal not brushed in your unit?
BR3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 09/03/2014 8:33 AM
Well, there is certainly nothing wrong with you asking whomever is sending the letter to clarify what is and what is not a "pet violation". Perhaps that would be a good topic for the next newsletter, if one is published.

You said the action which resulted in the violation notice was not intentional. Since brushing the dog in the hallway was a conscious decision by you or your partner, as opposed to a "pet accident", is there anything in the house rules about brushing animals in or on common areas? And, I would have to ask, why was the animal not brushed in your unit?

In retrospect, it wasn't the smartest choice by him. I was on a work call, and he wanted to be in a different room so that I could concentrate without a lot of background noise. It wasn't an intentional violation - just a quick move as we were getting ready for his brother's wedding and the dog needed to be fluffed for her role as flower girl. BTW, she was an adorable flower girl.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
let me get this straight..................

it would have been too messy to brush the dog in the living room

but

it was OK to make the same mess in a common hallway

then

attempt to wriggle out of the resulting fine based upon a loop-hole

WOW, y'all have GIGANTIC you-know-whats

ps. this is EXACTLY why many people HATE dogs and their owners
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We have 5 condos per floor in our high rise and the rules forbid shaking out rugs, dust mops etc. in our common area hallways. It doesn't specifically say don't brush your dogs or any pets in the hallways. But i must say if I saw that activity, I'd be pretty disgusted with dander flying around, etc. No matter how "adorable" the pet . . . ewww!

If I'd seen such an activity in my hallway, I'd have very politely asked the resident to please brush the animal out on their balcony in the future. i wouldn't have busted him to the HOA.

Even if I had, we do give one courtesy letter to owners on a first violation such as this. On a 2nd violation like this, we'd call the owner to a hearing and fine him $50.

We do have immediate calls to hearing for more serious violations, e.g., liquid or other materials coming off of balconies, pets using our common areas as toilets ($100).

But if your rules against noxious behavior are written (and we have that one too), it does fit the violation. Don't try to wriggle out of it. If you beg for mercy and promise it's never going to happen again, the Board might waive the fine (as we do sometimes) if the behavior isn't repeated, with a warning that if the behavior IS repeated, the fine could double. This board decision would all be in writing sent to the violator within a week of the hearing.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/03/2014 3:42 PM
We have 5 condos per floor in our high rise and the rules forbid shaking out rugs, dust mops etc. in our common area hallways. It doesn't specifically say don't brush your dogs or any pets in the hallways. But i must say if I saw that activity, I'd be pretty disgusted with dander flying around, etc. No matter how "adorable" the pet . . . ewww!

If I'd seen such an activity in my hallway, I'd have very politely asked the resident to please brush the animal out on their balcony in the future. i wouldn't have busted him to the HOA.

Even if I had, we do give one courtesy letter to owners on a first violation such as this. On a 2nd violation like this, we'd call the owner to a hearing and fine him $50.

We do have immediate calls to hearing for more serious violations, e.g., liquid or other materials coming off of balconies, pets using our common areas as toilets ($100).

But if your rules against noxious behavior are written (and we have that one too), it does fit the violation. Don't try to wriggle out of it. If you beg for mercy and promise it's never going to happen again, the Board might waive the fine (as we do sometimes) if the behavior isn't repeated, with a warning that if the behavior IS repeated, the fine could double. This board decision would all be in writing sent to the violator within a week of the hearing.

Sound advice. DO not fight/challenge. Beg for forgiveness...mea culpa...mea culpa.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
JohnC is right. Do apologize, don't make any excuses, tell stories, question the methods of notice delivery or split hairs about whether it's a "pet" violation or not.

"I'm, sorry--we just weren't thinking," and then the begging part. You might be surprised!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
JohnC is right. Do apologize, don't make any excuses, tell stories, question the methods of notice delivery or split hairs about whether it's a "pet" violation or not.

"I'm, sorry--we just weren't thinking," and then the begging part. You might be surprised!
CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457
Posted:
If you came on here to ask about the proper channels for notification, you've still not taken full responsibility for the poor choices your partner made. This mentality is why so many HOA's are referred to in such a bad way. No one say's "oopps, my bad" let me rectify it", instead, they come here looking for an out in some legal way.

You should volunteer to pay for professional carpet cleaning or cleaning the hallway which was coated in dog hair so he could be "fluffy" and as well pay the violation fines.
FredB4 (Ohio)
Posts: 375
Posted:
BR3 - just curious here ... your original post suggests that a letter was sent to your partner notifying him that there was a violation and then you got fined. Ignoring for a moment who got which notification, did you or your partner do the same thing again to receive a fine or does your association fine without warning for violations ?

Our association would send a warning letter to both owner and tenant and only fine for a second violation. We also wouldn't consider someone living in the same unit a "tenant" and therefore the letter should go to the owner of record.

It sounds like you have done this more than once and you are trying to get out of the fine on a technicality.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Pay the fine and stop breaking the rules. Brushing your dog in a common hallway is not a minor infraction. People have allergies and its inconsiderate to everyone who lives in your building. Sorry, but you deserved the fine.
JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001
Posted:
......and a good spanking

probably the first one
BR3 (South Carolina)
Posts: 25
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredB4 on 09/04/2014 6:03 AM
BR3 - just curious here ... your original post suggests that a letter was sent to your partner notifying him that there was a violation and then you got fined. Ignoring for a moment who got which notification, did you or your partner do the same thing again to receive a fine or does your association fine without warning for violations ?

Our association would send a warning letter to both owner and tenant and only fine for a second violation. We also wouldn't consider someone living in the same unit a "tenant" and therefore the letter should go to the owner of record.

It sounds like you have done this more than once and you are trying to get out of the fine on a technicality.


Appreciate all of the discussion here. Yes, yes, we were absolutely in violation although there is no specific rule, it wasn't a good choice. We've heard through the rumor mill that the board has stated "let's fine the hell out of those two" when we started asking questions related to the building finances. There's a bit of a back story, but we're certainly getting close to uncovering something. Without getting too far into the details, I'm trying to address this violation with a level head and as a good citizen would. Neither of us have been in violation of brushing our pet before, and I think this should have been a warning. I will respond to the board with a tempered request to kindly let me know as the unit owner, for a little clarification as to why this isn't a warning versus a fine, and a commitment to avoid ever brushing our dog in the hallway again.

Thanks for the helpful advice all.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BR3 on 09/04/2014 7:09 AM
Appreciate all of the discussion here. Yes, yes, we were absolutely in violation although there is no specific rule, it wasn't a good choice. We've heard through the rumor mill that the board has stated "let's fine the hell out of those two" when we started asking questions related to the building finances. There's a bit of a back story, but we're certainly getting close to uncovering something. Without getting too far into the details, I'm trying to address this violation with a level head and as a good citizen would. Neither of us have been in violation of brushing our pet before, and I think this should have been a warning. I will respond to the board with a tempered request to kindly let me know as the unit owner, for a little clarification as to why this isn't a warning versus a fine, and a commitment to avoid ever brushing our dog in the hallway again.

Thanks for the helpful advice all.

Before I got on the Board this round, I had my share of disagreements with the Board. The various Boards I encountered dragged their heels when responding to my inquiries and were quick with the violation notices. My typical response to these notices was that if the HOA would send me a letter stating that the rule they wanted to apply was as least as safe as what I was doing, I would comply. Without such a letter, I would continue doing what I was doing because, IMO, my practices were safer. It always ended in a stalemate.

When I got on the Board, I got to see the written communications between the Board and the PM. Shocker. Everything was personal. Very little was said about the incidents or practices. Only negative comments about me personally.

One of the first things I did on joining the Board was to purge all of these personal attack records for all units and get the current Board to shift focus from personalities to policies.

The reason I am going through this long story is that most Boards I have encountered are less than perfect in their ability to separate the personal from the policy decision. In your case, the existence of that rumor mill indicates a Board that probably needs some help in this area.

So regardless of this pet incident which in the overall scheme of things is not that significant, some positive effort should be made to make some changes in the Policy/Personality department. IMO, this focus on personalities rather than policies would be a big enough reason to you to run for your Board. Had I known what was going on (in private Board meetings and communications which are allowed in PA), I would have run for the Board sooner than I did.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
BR, your state isn't next to your name and your count is 0.

Anyway, your CC&Rs or perhaps bylaws or rules & regs, should state if you get a warning letter before you're fined. A warning or "courtesy" letter may not be required. One of those docs along with state law should spell out the exact procedure for giving written notice of disciplinary hearings and fines.

For this infraction, just go ahead and pay or plead for a reduction.

If you think you're being harrasessed, you need to learn exactly what your board may legally do per your own documents and your state's laws. An then be prepared for next time.
MicheleH2 (California)
Posts: 9
Posted:
A fine is not enforceable if the owner of record was not properly noticed. You would not be obligated to pay the fine but if there is a matter that needs to be corrected....just correct it! The goal of an HOA should be for the matter to be corrected or to obtain compliance - not make money off of the violators.

Due to the fact that you feel like your being harassed, it sounds like you do not feel like you are not in violation (read your governing document "carefully"); if that is the case I would suggest that you write your Board and note your concerns "put them on notice".

Remember: Rules are only as good as the people willing to follow them. However, it is not normally the rule that is being enforced but the was the information is delivered. Try to find a happy medium...

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
BR

As many who come out here and state their case they do not tell all. The back stories come later.

You issue/story is not the dog brushing fine. It goes deeper with you and the HOA as do many posters issue/story.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/04/2014 10:39 AM

BR, your state isn't next to your name and your count is 0.

This is an indication that BR has resigned the forum.

Perhaps because the advice offered wasn't the advice desired.
Perhaps because BR wants to by unassociated with their past posts and virtually start life anew.
Perhaps for reasons unknown.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Dang lack of edit function:

Perhaps because BR wants to by unassociated with their past posts and virtually start life anew.

should have read

Perhaps because BR wants to be unassociated with their past posts and virtually start life anew.

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