Kitchen remodel done by previous owner and HOA wants me to fix it now.

Started by RoshM • 23 replies • 3876 views

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RoshM (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Hi,

I need if anyone is aware of any precedence similar to my situation.

I got a notice from my HOA that I need to put back my kitchen. HOA claims the previous owner's kitchen remodel (apparently not approved by HOA) is causing excessing noise downstairs. The downstairs owner has complained to the HOA that there is excessive noise from my unit caused by me tenants. I consulted a lawyer and he says the CC&R's are not clear. Can the HOA force a current owner (me) to have the kitchen remodeled even though I had nothing to do with it? I went to the city to check if the remodel was ever final'd by the city. The city has apparently final'd the remodel four years ago. Would the city approve the remodel if it could cause excessive noise?

Appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,
RoshM

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

What exactly do they want you to "fix", hardwood floors perchance? If hardwood floors are banned then you may have to comply but I would talk to an attorney first, if it has been four years since the remodel, the neighbors may have waited too long to complain.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

RoshM (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

They want me to bring condo to compliance - meaning redo the kitchen. A wall has been removed as part of the kitchen remodel and the Board president says the noise downstairs is due to the fact that the condo is more open!!! I had to move my tenants out since the complaint, changed a perfectly good carpet with plush one (with more padding). During carpet change, we noticed cracks in the concrete floor and we poured new concrete over that area too. I had one tenant for one year and there were no noise complaints then. It was during the second tenant time the complaints started. I wanted to work with the HOA and make the necessary changes (as described above). But the HOA now sent me. Lawyers notice about about the remodel. Seems like the HOA is hell bent on getting me put the kitchen (and the wall) back to how it was in the original unit and is using my neighbors complaint just as an excuse.

Appreciate any comments if the Board is the board is over stepping its reach?

Thanks,
RoshM.

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Unless the 'remodel' was done with a building permit and was 'signed off' with a new C of O you are:

ka-ka out of luck

ps. 'open concept' Quonset Huts do, in fact, resonate and 'amplify' sound

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Rosh,

Your attorney says that the CC&Rs aren't clear. That means that there may or may not be a possibility that you would win if you challenged the issue through the courts.

I would suggest you check your Disclosure package you received when you purchased your unit. If there is anything in there that states the Association declared that there are no violations, you may have additional evidence to counter the Associations claim.

That said, all of this will cost money to fight as it looks like the Association is gearing up for a court battle.

RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173

Posted:

This seems confusing. The previous owner did a kitchen 'remodel' (including removing a wall) without HOA approval? Does that mean the HOA disapproved it, or didn't know about it?

As Tim suggested, it would be nice if you could come up with documentation that says the property 'has no violations' at the time of your purchase. Or if there is any record of the previous owner requesting HOA approval perhaps?

It also sounds like you could put up a good 'laches defense' over this, as the HOA 1)has not said a word in four years, and 2) allowed your purchase to go thru without notification of any violation of the CC&R's (let alone a lien, etc).

I would be fighting this (just my opinion). But I'd try do it politely by reasoning with the Board (at first). I don't believe the HOA is in a strong position here. And yes, it may cost to fight it. But the new kitchen remodel will cost also...

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

juuuuuust possibly a 'fire rated' wall was removed w/o a permit ?

gas range in kitchen ?

exhaust fan ?

smoke detection ?

Check for a 'signed off' building permit !

this sounds like a multi-story condo, alterations to which 'may' affect other unit's life safety

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Rosh,

I thought of an interesting point. How did the Association find out that the kitchen was remodeled?

Did you inform them of it or did it simply show up in the letter?

I ask because if you didn't tell them, it's likely that they knew about the change previously. If this occurred, then as John pointed out, you may have a good argument for latches.

You may want to request copies of all Board meeting minutes and Architectural committee meeting minutes for one year before you purchased (or 1 year prior to the remodel if you know the date) to present. This might tell you if the Association was aware of the remodeling and if it was or wasn't approved.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Rosh if you have received notice from the HOA's attorney, whatever you decide to do, DO NOT ignore it. Usually such letters will have a deadline for you to respond or you are agreeing that you are in the wrong.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Rosh

Could you get in touch with the prior owner and ask of the association knew about the change?

Find out if a building permit was pulled for such a change. You should be able to do this via the address.

RayC4 (Virginia)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 07/19/2014 5:05 PM
then as John pointed out, you may have a good argument for latches.

Tim, it was not JohnB who pointed out the laches possibility, it was me. John is busy still trying to figure out HUD/HOPA regulations.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I believe "the City" only is interested in safety issues and doesn't care much about noise in other units.

You'e getting good advice from others. Try to find whatever documentation you can, including the disclosure forms, which, as you know are many in CA.

If the previous owners didn't follow your HOA procedures, you may be able to hold them accountable for failure to disclose. But there may be a statute of limitations on that. On that matter, check with a real estate attorney.

In our high rise HOA, there is a "unit file" for every condo, which should show if the remodel was approved. But it means your HOA keeps good, orderly file, which isn't always the case.

I'm thinking that you may need another attorney if this one says your CC&Rs aren't clear. Maybe hire someone familiar with CA HOA laws instead of some other type of attorney. Yes, and one who's familiar with the doctrine of laches.

RoshM (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thanks to everyone for your comments.

Here is some more history/background on the unit:

The owner who allegedly made the changes "seems" to have to carried out the changes with the HOA approval (don't know when).
The unit has been foreclosed and was bought by the seller (who bought it from the bank) is my seller. So, technically, I am two owners removed from the owner who did the remodel). I bought the unit 4 years ago.
No complains from the downstairs owner and no complaints from the HOA one year into my ownership.
It's when my second tenants moved in the noise complaints started. There was a board hearing for this issue and the Board president mentioned during the hearing that the unit I bought had a "lot of issues, including a remodel). So, the Board/Persident knew about the remodel way back.
When the HOA/lawyer sent me this notice, the notice indicated that the house had been red tagged (by the city) once and wanted me to produce a city approval of the unit.
The city building office had no record of the red tag and, in fact, pulled a "finalesd' permit of the kitchen remodel. Seems like the kitchen remodel has been inspected and finaled by the city.
The remodel itself was tastefully done (and, I should say, had been an asset in attracting tenants).

When I countered that the downstairs owner is perhaps extra sensitive to noise (after the new concrete, new carpet - I ran out of options), the Board is now countering that the remodel is cause of the extra noise downstairs!!

Thanks,
RoshM

RoshM (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Sorry, the first point should have said "without the HOA approval".

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

then, unless you are successful with a court challenge, you WILL be required to restore the unit to original condition

you may have some recourse with the seller and/or the title insurance company

if no building permit was obtained there would have been be no certificate of occupancy after the alteration

this also may become an insurance quagmire

you probably need legal advice NOW

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RayC4 on 07/20/2014 11:19 AM

Posted By TimB4 on 07/19/2014 5:05 PM
then as John pointed out, you may have a good argument for latches.

Tim, it was not JohnB who pointed out the laches possibility, it was me. John is busy still trying to figure out HUD/HOPA regulations.

Sorry about that Ray.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RoshM on 07/20/2014 12:44 PM
Thanks to everyone for your comments.

Here is some more history/background on the unit:

The owner who allegedly made the changes "seems" to have to carried out the changes with the HOA approval (don't know when).
The unit has been foreclosed and was bought by the seller (who bought it from the bank) is my seller. So, technically, I am two owners removed from the owner who did the remodel). I bought the unit 4 years ago.
No complains from the downstairs owner and no complaints from the HOA one year into my ownership.
It's when my second tenants moved in the noise complaints started. There was a board hearing for this issue and the Board president mentioned during the hearing that the unit I bought had a "lot of issues, including a remodel). So, the Board/Persident knew about the remodel way back.
When the HOA/lawyer sent me this notice, the notice indicated that the house had been red tagged (by the city) once and wanted me to produce a city approval of the unit.
The city building office had no record of the red tag and, in fact, pulled a "finalesd' permit of the kitchen remodel. Seems like the kitchen remodel has been inspected and finaled by the city.
The remodel itself was tastefully done (and, I should say, had been an asset in attracting tenants).

When I countered that the downstairs owner is perhaps extra sensitive to noise (after the new concrete, new carpet - I ran out of options), the Board is now countering that the remodel is cause of the extra noise downstairs!!

Thanks,
RoshM

To me, the attorney's mention of a "red flag" sounds more like they are on shaky ground to enforce the re-remodel and used the mention of the flag to intimidate. I have hade attorneys do that to me. They throw around little bits of irrelevant data in hopes they scare you. You happened to look into their accusations. It might be a violation of your states bar for a lawyer to knowingly misrepresent or lie about facts. I would reccomend keep investigating and try to get the records of HOA approval, if any.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Scammmer get off the page. Not following the rules and it's an old post.

Former HOA President

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/16/2019 4:56 AM
Scammmer get off the page. Not following the rules and it's an old post.

It is, however, a very interesting post and I'm curious what the outcome was.

PestY
Posts: 128

Posted:

ddiiieeee, thread, ddiiieeee

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RoshM on 07/18/2014 9:49 PM
Hi,

I need if anyone is aware of any precedence similar to my situation.

I got a notice from my HOA that I need to put back my kitchen. HOA claims the previous owner's kitchen remodel (apparently not approved by HOA) is causing excessing noise downstairs. The downstairs owner has complained to the HOA that there is excessive noise from my unit caused by me tenants. I consulted a lawyer and he says the CC&R's are not clear. Can the HOA force a current owner (me) to have the kitchen remodeled even though I had nothing to do with it? I went to the city to check if the remodel was ever final'd by the city. The city has apparently final'd the remodel four years ago. Would the city approve the remodel if it could cause excessive noise?

Appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,
RoshM

If the purchase agreement you signed included a representation that the owner had made repairs and the like in compliance with HOA rules (or something to that effect), wouldn't you have a claim against the prior owner? I had an issue where the prior owner did a do-it-yourself repair and it wasn't approved by the HOA either; I sued the prior owner and won.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PatJ1 on 08/16/2019 7:41 AM
It is, however, a very interesting post and I'm curious what the outcome was.

From 5 years ago.

Spammer re-activated. Looks like even Canada has dumb spammers.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KevinK7 on 07/20/2014 2:39 PM
It might be a violation of your states bar for a lawyer to knowingly misrepresent or lie about facts.

It definitely is a violation of bar rules for a lawyer to knowingly misrepresent or lie about facts.

It might also be a violation of federal and state debt collection laws if the lawyer lies to get a consumer debt paid (which might not be the case here).

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