Flagpoles

Our community prohibits installing stand-alone flagpoles. Flags may be displayed by attaching a holder to a tree. There is a group of people who are interested in challenging the flagpole prohibition. As a Board member and ARB member, I will be involved in this discussion. I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this subject or any experience to share. Thanks!

Agree with Larry. More often than not, these challenges wind up in the press. Tread cautiously.

As a general rule, size matters. Courts frequently uphold regs re height of flagpole,size of flag, etc.

Have not seen anything on placement.

Melissa. The Stars & Stripes isn't the only flag that is entitled to protection. Your position as usual is way too controlling and self-aggrandizing for me.

Let me try again. The right to display a flag is not limited only to the US flag. For example, I could fly a PA State flag, which is also entitled to protection.

In my state, we all live under the US flag and under the PA flag. So your argument that there is only one flag falls flat.

Chris

Be very, very, very careful of flags, especially restrictions on US or military type flags, otherwise every barfly at the local VFW, every alleged patriot, every my country right or wrong, etc. types will be all over your a$$. Even more true in SC.

Simple example. HOA says there shall be no flag poles more the 6 feet long hung from nor erected in front of ones house. Any flag flown from such cannot be larger then 3x3 feet. Sounds like a very liberal and open regulation.

Now a disabled veteran decides to erect a 12 foot flag pole in his front yard with a 4x4 feet American Flag. The HOA says no. He calls local media. Headline screams:

HOA Will Not Allow Disabled Vet to Fly the American Flag

Be very careful.

With everything else that goes on in my community, I'm glad we don't have any problems with this! Fortunately we have a community flag and that appears sufficient for everyone.

I co-sign what John said about these superduper "patriots" who want to put up any size flag on any size flagpole and then run to the media whenever they're reminded of the HOA restrictions. I've always found it interesting that none of these people ever go to the HOA first and say "I'm interested in displaying the flag this way and wanted to know if this is ok according to the CCRs" It really gets annoying. Sometimes, I wonder if they're just as enthusiastic about people who want to put up other displays honoring their home country, religion, etc.

As I understand it, there's a federal law that prohibits HOAs or similar organizations from prohibiting displays of the US flag, but it does allow they to impose reasonable restrictions. The key, of course, is what one's idea of reasonable is. I know the American Legion publishes booklets on properly displaying the flag and always wonder why people don't look to that first before they come up with something ridiculous. In fact, you might consider getting their rules and then crafting your rules around that. Perhaps that'll stop someone from coming with something really outrageous while respecting his/her rights to display the flag.

Chris not only is it a state law in many states but it is also a federal law and while HOA's may make reasonable rules, I don't think attaching it to a tree would be counted as reasonable. I would suggest visiting the Zoning Board and find out if there are any restrictions on flag poles, size, set backs etc. and follow them. You might find this article from CAI helpful, it has the flag code at the bottom and the url to The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005, signed into law by Bush in 2006.

http://www.caionline.org/govt/news/Pages/GuidanceforComplyingwiththeFreedomtoDisplaytheAmericanFlagActof2005.aspx

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr42/text

Tacky.

Mike, so true. I guess I've just had this topic in mind for a week or so. There was a story about a vet in Florida who had a small American flag stuck in a flowerpot by his door. The HOA passed a rule that only flowers may be in flowerpots and he refused to remove it. Flags are allowed in the HOA but not in flowerpots and he is being fined. To me both sides are acting like children, the HOA for passing a rule aimed at one and him for his "cut of my nose to spite my face" attitude.

HEADLINE

JamesG Refuse to Allow a Veteran to Fly His Flag

So and so says the HOA refuses to allow him to fly the flag he carried while serving in Iraq.

True. The flag exceeds the HOA allowable size but this is the stuff that gets lost in the headlines.

Wait a minute, it gets worse. The bracket forms an angle of 45 degrees but somehow that results is a flag pole with an angle of 90 degrees relative to the building? huh? Can someone draw me a picture showing all the angles?

Actually, I've seen a few and within our own neighborhood. However, they have typically not been the American flag. American flags, if hung perpendicular to the building, should have the stars facing either North or East.

For those who are interested:

UNITED STATES CODE, TITLE 36, CHAPTER 10 PATRIOTIC CUSTOMS from usflag.org

Guidelines for Display of the Flag from the department of Veterans Affairs

Public Law 94-344 Federal Flag code July 7, 1976 Note: it was amended in 2007 to allow State Governors or the Mayor of DC to be able to order when the flag is flown at half staff.

David,

I must disagree with you. The "rules" refereed to by Melissa and that you mentioned in your posting, The US Flag Code, are not guidelines. They are codified regulations within the US CODE (see links provided in earlier posting).

Granted it's not the Associations responsibility to enforce US Code. However, the flag code has been enforced in the past, see HOLMES v. WALLACE and STATE OF DELAWARE v. HODSDON and DOYLE v. FLEMING as examples.

That's not exactly correct.

From the USC Title 36 link you posted:

"(h) When the flag of the United States is displayed from a staff projecting horizontally or at an angle from the window sill, balcony, or front of a building, the union of the flag should be placed at the peak of the staff unless the flag is at half staff."

There is nothing in that paragraph about North or East. But, further down:

(j) When the flag is displayed over the middle of the street, it should be suspended vertically with the union to the north in an east and west street or to the east in a north and south street."

Also, few people realize that you never raise a flag to half staff or lower it from half staff. You always raise the American flag to full staff and then lower it to half staff. When taking a flag down that is at half staff, it is first raised to full staff and then lowered all the way.

"(m) The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day."

Sorry - it's the veteran and engineer in me showing again.

It's a good thing, too. Otherwise I would be in trouble. The front of my house faces South. For me to fly a flag with the union facing North I would have to fly it on the back of my house.

I have a couple of things that are are unique to me (sort of).

I never fly an American flag that doesn't have sewn stripes and embroidered or sewn stars.

I replace my flag when it starts to become faded (about every 2 years). (Actually, you're supposed to do this.)

I always turn my discarded flag over to a veteran's organization for proper destruction.

It's the veteran in me too. We just didn't have that many streets that we had to worry about in the Navy

Also, as an engineer myself, I simply failed to fully read the directions.

I need to make a correction here. Poor choice of words.

A flag is never discarded; it becomes unserviceable.

It is never destroyed; it is retired.

The American Legion actually has a very formal (and touching) ceremony for the retirement of the American flag(s). Usually performed on Flag Day, it is very similar to the ceremony one might expect at a funeral for a person.

If I read correctly, all three of those cases were dismissed.

But not because the code wasn't law.

HOLMES v. WALLACE was dismissed (and this may be why you believe that they are guidelines) because of the language used in the statute. The language used the word should vs. shall which, per the court, "the recurrent use of the word "should", as pointed out by the Court in Delaware ex rel. Trader v. Hodsdon, supra, are indicative of a lack of penal purpose."

STATE OF DELAWARE v. HODSDON was dismissed because the State was the one bringing the action and the court ruled that it had to be the Federal Government. However, they also ruled that the State could file under a State statute vs. a federal statute.

DOYLE v. FLEMING was dismissed because any ruling wouldn't have standing in the canal zone of Panama (and I am way over simplifying).