FL: HELP! Arrogant Board Member trouble

Started by GinaP1 • 28 replies • 4473 views

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GinaP1 (Florida)
Posts: 10

Posted:

We have a great HOA Board; with the exception of 1 member. He openly tells us that he's smarter, he knows better and he will not work with us unless we do it all his way. A real jerk. He has his own agenda, that he makes motions on at every meeting, we have voted on his issues repeatly and it's been shot down many times now, he refuses to let it go and his loud speeches and arrogance are disruptive at our meetings and keeps us from getting much done. He definitely is a bully.

He does what he wants, like running to our attorney for every little question, tries to fire our groundskeeper without permission, etc. We have our meetings in a members home, to save money, and he is rude and obnoxious to that member because he thinks we should pay to rent a room each time. Every single meeting, for well over a year now, so much time is wasted having to tell him, yet again, that he cannot do what he's doing, that he needs to be a team player, etc. and he just smirks and says he has no intention of cooperating.

Our documents require an 80% vote of the membership for us to remove him. We have tried and failed to get enough signatures (roughly 145) due to several rental properties with owners out of state/county who won't return paperwork, as well as residents who won't sign because they 'don't want to get involved'. We're confident that some of them are afraid of him coming after them if they sign.

Here's the main issue that we have a question about that we can't seem to find answers to. He harasses our management company to the point of ridiculous. We were notified yesterday that we now have yet another manager because the one we had refuses to work our property due to the relentless harassment of the 1 board member. The man before him quit for the very same reason.

The troublemaker calls their office, at least once a week, demanding certain documents be made available to him. It's different every time and although we realize, as a homeowner, he's allowed access to certain things but now he's demanding copies of any and all paperwork that the previous manager handled while he was representing our property (since the beginning of this year). That manager did a great job and rest of the board were happy with him.

He is also demanding that he be given copies of all the infraction/violation letters sent out this year. It's my understanding that those are not to be given to homeowners, so he can't use that as an excuse, but he is also representing the board and he's been told repeatedly that he does not have permission to do that unless the board agrees to it as a whole.

So, HELP! He's driving us crazy and our management company is now threatening to quit. Are there ways available to us to reign him in?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Gina,

Although the Board may not remove him from the Board, they likely can remove him from any office that he holds (President, etc.) and from any committees he may be on. When issues are brought up that have been gone over in the past, the President (who is supposed to control the meeting) needs to step up to the plate and simply respond that the issue has already been discussed and decision made, we need to move on - next agenda item.

The Board can identify one or two (perhaps a primary and secondary) contact for the MC to use. Then simply instruct the MC that only those contacts may act for the Board. The MC can then refuse requests outside of what members may receive based on those instructions. When the member complains, the MC should simply say to take it up with the Board.

Now, with those suggestions out there, I also think that the Board needs to continue to address issues that he may raise. I know it can be frustrating but simply because the messenger or the method of delivery is annoying, you need to continue to fight the frustration and listen and respond to the actual message.

GinaP1 (Florida)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Thanks for the info! We do address new issues he brings up, because we realize we need to in order to be properly doing our jobs and not give him the right to say we aren't. He's just a angry, mean s.o.b. and works hard to make everyone's lives miserable. We have a hard enough time getting people on the Board and with his actions, some on the board now, will mostly likely quit soon. He's out aggressively knocking on doors, telling residents we are ruining the association and telling some that they need to run at the next election to get all of us off. Our president really is doing a great job but I can see where he's getting worn down by this clown intentionally causing trouble. It's like this guy takes joy in it all.

This guy is our treasurer, at the moment. We've discussing voting him out of that position to being just a director but I can't see where that would change anything, other than just making him more obnoxious.

RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

It does not require 80% to RECALL an HOA Director (regardless of office) in Florida.

You need 51% of the total units.

Google Florida HOA recall.

As others said, the other 3 (of 5)BOD members can remove him from offoce but not the BOD.

He only has one vote, why do you need his cooperation?

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.

EstherP1 (Florida)
Posts: 3

Posted:

Thanks for the reply. Not needing his cooperation is one thing; him being intentionally hateful to other members and harassing our management company is another. We are taking Tim's advice (reply above) and designating other BOD members to be our only liaison's to our management company and letting the management company know that they can tell him No and that he will just have to take it up with the Board.

I'll google your suggestion and see if anything there can help. The problem I think we have is that our documents specifically state that the Board can remove him from his position and not the BOD BUT to remove him from the Board entirely, it takes the 80% membership vote to do so. I believe the Florida Statutes themselves say that as well; that a majority vote can remove a BOD member unless the governing documents say otherwise.

GinaP1 (Florida)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Seems I'm not the only on our Board trying to figure this problem out! Everyone seems to want to demote him from our Treasurer to just a director but I don't see how that will help. It truly is like he's only on the Board to cause problems; taking away his officer designation won't change that. I talked to the State Department of Regulations and they are telling us that we should also videotape the meetings.

JonD1
Posts: 2,350

Posted:

Gina:

I am sorry but this is not an HOA problem IMO his is a personality problem with what you describe as being a very difficult person.

Or perhaps think of him as a small slow child. In life there MUST be consequences and while you may not appreciate the impact his removal from office might have I do.

And YES no one on your Board should be in the position to call the MC make demnads and have them respond. Especially this person.

IMO you should do everything in your power to shut them down. To limit their ability to affect the Board's actions. To send a clear and loud message that their behavior is not appreciated, valued, or needed.

I grew up in a rather tough neighborhood. I learned when a bully pushes you that leaves you with just two choices 1) you either push back 2) you get bullied.

Time for you and the other Board members and perhaps the owners to collectively PUSH BACK by any means possible.

I would also suggest you find out for sure what the necessary vote amount is to recall them and then knock on doors, write letters, make calls to find those votes to clean up this mess.
But first you have to know what is required seems to be some confusion and being confused is not a good starting point.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Great advice Tim.

Another thought - Adopt a procedural rule that a Board member who is disruptive at a meeting can be evicted from the meeting. Set some standards. Make sure that those standards are limited to extreme procedural disruptions and not policy disputes. Kick him out of a meeting. If he doesn't leave, suspend the meeting and reconvene without inviting him to sit as a Board member. See what happens.

Because of our current Board composition I've never tried this, but I would have done it in a heartbeat with one prior Board member. I go head to head with him every time we invite homeowner participation at our meetings. I even went so far as to tell him in advance that certain disruptive behavior (grandstanding and posing as the ultimate expert on every topic) would not be tolerated at a meeting. He was offended and didn't show up. At the next meeting, he complained about being shut out. But his rant was shorter than usual and we saw it as progress.

I agree with Jon that you need to find a roadblock that can work for your situation.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

GinaP1 (Florida)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I've read the State Statutes til my head aches! The problem is that so much of it is very vague and we've been playing to side of caution and letting a lot ride but that's going to stop. Everyone has been too nice for too long.

He intentionally did not pay his homeowners fees for 2013 and 2014 because he said we didn't have a 'proper' budget meeting. The State says we can refuse someone that is in arrears from being on the Board but we were unaware of his lack of payment until after he got on the Board (people are NOT lining up to be on the Board so we end up stuck with whoever shows up at the election). The State has no ruling on kicking someone off the Board for being delinquent. We were going to kick him off for that, when we learned of it, but our manager said it was only 'fair' to notify him, which he did, and the guy paid his dues. He is, however, still refusing to pay the incurred late fees so hoping we might have something there when the next elections roll around.

GinaP1 (Florida)
Posts: 10

Posted:

We also plan to start recording the meetings, I found the statute that allows it. It might curb his rants and attitude a bit.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GinaP1 on 07/09/2014 9:15 AM
Thanks to all for the suggestions. I've read the State Statutes til my head aches! The problem is that so much of it is very vague and we've been playing to side of caution and letting a lot ride but that's going to stop. Everyone has been too nice for too long.

He intentionally did not pay his homeowners fees for 2013 and 2014 because he said we didn't have a 'proper' budget meeting. The State says we can refuse someone that is in arrears from being on the Board but we were unaware of his lack of payment until after he got on the Board (people are NOT lining up to be on the Board so we end up stuck with whoever shows up at the election). The State has no ruling on kicking someone off the Board for being delinquent. We were going to kick him off for that, when we learned of it, but our manager said it was only 'fair' to notify him, which he did, and the guy paid his dues. He is, however, still refusing to pay the incurred late fees so hoping we might have something there when the next elections roll around.

If it's important enough to you, you will double your efforts to recruit someone to run against him.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

GinaP1 (Florida)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Absolutely! We're already talking to a couple others now but it's not going to be easy. No one wants to be on a Board, they just don't want the hassle and I can understand that. We've all been on the Board for more than 2 years now because no one else with step up to the plate. My concern is us burning out and walking away, which will leave this guy to do as pleases.

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GinaP1 on 07/09/2014 9:34 AM

... which will leave this guy to do as pleases.

And that is exactly what will keep your burnt out people on board and make recruiting easier.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

May I ask how he is being harrassing? Is he threatening lawsuits? Is he threatening harm? Is he not going to pay dues? You need to knock this guy down at the knees. Hate to say it, but yes he does seem a bit "smarter" than ya. No insult intended. Just a third eye view on the situation.

If this guy did not pay his dues for a year, then what kind of collection policy do you have? There should be a time limit and not just random. We have a 6 month policy before we lien. That weeds out those who are broke, ignorant, or protesting. Stick to this policy. After a year, we CONSIDER foreclosure but does not mean we follow through.

It is time to know the rules and laws better than he does. Time to step it up and learn. If he threatens to sue? Tell him suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors.... We will wait on the paperwork... He refuses to pay? Wait till time limit is up and lien. He does file a lawsuit? Countersue. Stop playing hostage.

Have only the president communicate to the MC. They should be the one talking to them for requests or decisions. This should limit the MC from having to respond.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Gina, one reason to throw him out of the office of treasurer is because that officer often needs to deal with management, at least in our HOA. But also assigning, at a meeting so it's in the minutes, only one director to be liaison with the PM. Here's it's our president with the VP as back-up (as suggested by others).

In our HOA, only the president may contact our HOA attorney (actually in or contract with our attorney), so make that a motion at a meeting too & record the vote in the minutes.

Requests for documents/records. In CA, we may not request just anything, and our MC does not have to compile documents. Let's say I want to know how many noise nuisance violations there have been in the past year, the MC has no obligation to compile that data for me. So maybe it's that way in FL too?? Moreover, here, and I'll bet in FL too, requests have to be made in writing, and your HOA might be able to charge a fee per page. If he phones in requests he must be told that the board has instructed the MC to only accept written request. In FL law they also may have several days to reply to an owner's request. Look at FL legislation on this point.

Try following Robert's Rules of Order In Brief for a few of the other issues. You can, for example, "censure" him for being rude and a loudmouth at meetings, i.e., meeting disruption. Have the prez direct the guy to leave the room if he is disorderly.

It's possible that your prez isn't a very effective presider. He must call on directors in turn and he must not let the bully just speak out whenever he wishes. as a board, adopt a few basic meeting procedures to help your president maintain order. One change might be that only items on the board's approved agenda, a la Robert's may be discussed at board meetings.

In addition, if your board already has approved of something with its vote, he, following Robert's, may only raise the topic again if he was on the winning side of the vote. (Bruce can correct me!)

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GinaP1 on 07/09/2014 9:15 AM

He intentionally did not pay his homeowners fees for 2013 and 2014 because he said we didn't have a 'proper' budget meeting. The State says we can refuse someone that is in arrears from being on the Board but we were unaware of his lack of payment until after he got on the Board (people are NOT lining up to be on the Board so we end up stuck with whoever shows up at the election).

For that reason alone, I would not appoint the individual to be Treasurer, even if I had to do the job myself (and I am currently my Associations Treasurer so I know the amount of time it can take).

Additionally, the previous PM should have alerted other Board members that voting privileges should have been suspended for the individual at the last annual meeting.

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

I am curious as to what the Department of Professional Regulation will come up with. If they have already asked you to videotape the behavior, it sounds like maybe something else can be done? Also. since our state now mandates the following:

All Florida Homeowners Association’s should be aware of a new law that became effective July 1, 2013, which created a new mandatory certification requirement for newly elected members of a Homeowners Association’s board of directors. Section 720.3033(1), Florida Statutes, provides two alternative certification procedures for complying with the new requirements, a written certification and an educational certificate. The new mandatory certification requirement does not apply to existing board members, but does appear to apply if an existing board member is reelected.

Below is a summary of the two certification options:

1. Written Certification. The first certification option requires that the newly elected Director certify in writing to the secretary of the association within 90 days after being elected or appointed to a board, that he or she has read the association’s declaration of covenants, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and current written rules and policies; that he or she will work to uphold such documents and policies to the best of his or her ability; and that he or she will faithfully discharge his or her fiduciary responsibility to the association’s members.

2. Educational Certificate. In the alternative, within 90 days after being elected or appointed to the board the newly elected or appointed director may submit a certificate of having satisfactorily completed the educational curriculum administered by an education provider approved by the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes within one year before or 90 days after the date of election or appointment.

Whichever of the two certification options that the director provides will be valid for the uninterrupted tenure of the director on the board, so a director does not need to provide a new certification unless there is a break in the term of service as a director. It is very important that all newly elected directors comply with this new requirement because the law requires that a director who does not timely file the written certification or educational certificate must be suspended from the board until he or she complies with the requirement and the board may temporarily fill the vacancy during the period of suspension.

An association is required to retain each director’s written certification or educational certificate for inspection by the members for 5 years after the director’s election. Fortunately, the failure to have the written certification or educational certificate on file does not affect the validity of any board action.

While this certification procedure is new for Homeowners Associations, the directors of Condominium Associations have been, and continue to be subject to essentially the same requirements.

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GinaP1 on 07/09/2014 8:17 AM
Seems I'm not the only on our Board trying to figure this problem out! Everyone seems to want to demote him from our Treasurer to just a director but I don't see how that will help. It truly is like he's only on the Board to cause problems; taking away his officer designation won't change that. I talked to the State Department of Regulations and they are telling us that we should also videotape the meetings.

Gina, as others have stated, I would designate a contact person with the MC, which may be difficult while he is the treasurer as he would have a legitimate need to access the MC. Same thing for the attorney, I would make a motion that only inquiries from the president will be paid for by the HOA, all other Board members making inquiries will be responsible for the cost and let the attorney know too.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By EstherP1 on 07/09/2014 8:12 AM
I'll google your suggestion and see if anything there can help. The problem I think we have is that our documents specifically state that the Board can remove him from his position and not the BOD BUT to remove him from the Board entirely, it takes the 80% membership vote to do so. I believe the Florida Statutes themselves say that as well; that a majority vote can remove a BOD member unless the governing documents say otherwise.

Esther if you will go to: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/0720.html and read section: 720.303 Association powers and duties; meetings of board; official records; budgets; financial reporting; association funds; recalls.— I think you will find that it takes a simple majority for a recall, regardless of a higher requirement in your documents.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GlenL on 07/09/2014 11:24 PM

It sure looks like you're right Glen:

(10) RECALL OF DIRECTORS.—
(a)1. Regardless of any provision to the contrary contained in the governing documents, ... any member of the board of directors may be recalled and removed from office with or without cause by a majority of the total voting interests.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Gina

Have you considered video taping the BOD Meetings? Some people change their demeanor when they are being taped.

Also distribute copies to other owners especially those showing him "going off" to let people know how disrupting his actions are.

Maybe do some editing of several tapes. Compile one showing him showing his a$$. Name it The Best of so and so BOD Meetings.

As you can see, I am big on public shaming.

RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AnnH5 on 07/09/2014 4:41 PM
I am curious as to what the Department of Professional Regulation will come up with. If they have already asked you to videotape the behavior, it sounds like maybe something else can be done? Also. since our state now mandates the following:

All Florida Homeowners Association’s should be aware of a new law that became effective July 1, 2013, which created a new mandatory certification requirement for newly elected members of a Homeowners Association’s board of directors. Section 720.3033(1), Florida Statutes, provides two alternative certification procedures for complying with the new requirements, a written certification and an educational certificate. The new mandatory certification requirement does not apply to existing board members, but does appear to apply if an existing board member is reelected.

Below is a summary of the two certification options:

1. Written Certification. The first certification option requires that the newly elected Director certify in writing to the secretary of the association within 90 days after being elected or appointed to a board, that he or she has read the association’s declaration of covenants, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and current written rules and policies; that he or she will work to uphold such documents and policies to the best of his or her ability; and that he or she will faithfully discharge his or her fiduciary responsibility to the association’s members.

2. Educational Certificate. In the alternative, within 90 days after being elected or appointed to the board the newly elected or appointed director may submit a certificate of having satisfactorily completed the educational curriculum administered by an education provider approved by the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares, and Mobile Homes within one year before or 90 days after the date of election or appointment.

Whichever of the two certification options that the director provides will be valid for the uninterrupted tenure of the director on the board, so a director does not need to provide a new certification unless there is a break in the term of service as a director. It is very important that all newly elected directors comply with this new requirement because the law requires that a director who does not timely file the written certification or educational certificate must be suspended from the board until he or she complies with the requirement and the board may temporarily fill the vacancy during the period of suspension.

An association is required to retain each director’s written certification or educational certificate for inspection by the members for 5 years after the director’s election. Fortunately, the failure to have the written certification or educational certificate on file does not affect the validity of any board action.

While this certification procedure is new for Homeowners Associations, the directors of Condominium Associations have been, and continue to be subject to essentially the same requirements.

The DBPR has no interest in this.

For HOAs their jurisdiction limited to Election and Recall disputes.

"The Division has the power and duty to enforce and ensure compliance with the provisions of the following statutes:

The Condominium Act, Chapter 718, F.S.
The Cooperative Act, Chapter 719, F.S.
The Florida Mobile Home Act, Chapter 723, F.S.
The Florida Vacation Plan and Timesharing Act, Chapter 721, F.S.
The Yacht and Ship Brokers Act, Chapter 326, F.S.
Homeowners' Associations, Chapter 720, F.S. (jurisdiction limited to
arbitration of election and recall disputes)"

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

Then I wonder why they would advise the Board to video record meetings? With the requirements changing and Board members now having to be "certified", it sounds just a little like there could be another angle to getting rid of the bad apple?

RwT (Florida)
Posts: 154

Posted:

Their jurisdiction may have changed (faster than their website)...either way it's good advice.

* Non-Lawyer spokesperson.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Ann

Why do I think that "certified" means yes I read something and even if I did not read it, I will sign saying I did read it?

Meaning, it does not amount to a pi$$ hole in a snow bank.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Appoint committees and delegate some responsibilities to the committees. Then have fewer and shorter board meetings. Not the best way to run an association, but this may be the best you can do, considering.

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 07/10/2014 4:27 PM
Ann

Why do I think that "certified" means yes I read something and even if I did not read it, I will sign saying I did read it?

Meaning, it does not amount to a pi$$ hole in a snow bank.

LOL- yes, perhaps the bad apple didn't read it. That makes it even better though since it isn't going to be an excuse for his removal. If our state is now requiring certification and the Board member isn't holding up on his end for certification then maybe there is another way to get his removal vs going through the hassle of a recall election. Just a thought.

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

And failure to complete the course for certification means that the Board member MUST be suspended from the Board until he completes the course and signs the certification. Just makes me think that if the Board members are now being required to sign this document as a requirement per statute then perhaps there is a different recourse. If the Board member signs on a state mandated document that he will uphold his fiduciary duties but then fails to do so, can he be removed without a recall election? I would think this would be a matter for the Department of Professional Regulation and perhaps why they are asking for proof of the Board members conduct via video recordings?

JohnB26 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,001

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AnnH5 on 07/10/2014 9:32 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 07/10/2014 4:27 PM
Ann

Why do I think that "certified" means yes I read something and even if I did not read it, I will sign saying I did read it?

Meaning, it does not amount to a pi$$ hole in a snow bank.

It will mean a lot in a court room when the director is being sued for an act of mal-feasance AFTER said director has certified in writing that he/she is fully aware of their fiduciary duty and the basics of corporate law, in other words they can no longer say: "But I didn't know!"

Mal-feasance NOT being covered by D&O insurance nor, under most corporate law, eligible for 'indemnification'.

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