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EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Both our bylaws and Oregon law specify that homeowners may inspect and copy HOA records. There is no exception of "unless the board has not approved the records yet, in which case they are not HOA records." "When approved" seems to be a loophole for the board / management company to ignore requests for documents. Some documents are not created by the board such as building inspection reports or an independent CPA's year end financial review. Could the board rewrite an "independent" CPA's review?
Quote:
Posted By NpS on 06/30/2014 3:59 PM, Subject: Responding to Document Requests

Draft minutes are not official documents. By their very nature, they are subject to review and revision by majority vote of the Board. Putting them out prematurely puts undue burden on the Board to justify the difference between a draft and a final document.
Counterpoint: The draft minutes were written by one person, the secretary. Putting the minutes out as soon as available puts a reasonable burden on the Board to justify the difference between a draft and a final document. Draft minutes are better than nothing in letting the homeowners know the board's activities. For example, the board might have approved chopping down all the trees. That would be revealed in the draft minutes before the trees were gone. The approved minutes would be released after the trees were gone.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In Calif., draft minutes are available for H/Os to review 30 days after they are written. The date and "DRAFT" should be stamped on each page.

Perhaps you have a similar law in OR, Eric.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By EricH8 on 07/06/2014 9:52 AM

Could the board rewrite an "independent" CPA's review?

Typically, reports made to the Board (treasurers, committee's, auditors, election, etc.) are accepted or rejected. If accepted, they should become an attachment to the minutes. If rejected, the rejection and the reason for the rejection should be noted in the minutes.

PitA1
Posts: 222
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 07/06/2014 10:11 AM
Posted By EricH8 on 07/06/2014 9:52 AM

Could the board rewrite an "independent" CPA's review?


Not without committing the crime of FORGERY as it would be SIGNED by the CPA.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Meeting notes are not officially accepted until the NEXT meeting. Plus then they may be modifiec and not accepted until the meeting after that. If your so concerned about your HOA then attend the meetings where things are discussed or wait for the official documents.

I do not hold meetings to hear myself talk and neither do many other boards. We prefer people attend and hear us in context than trying to look at us with 20/20 hindsight. We can not simply change overnight the decision. Especially if at the time we did not have all the information.

Upon all the other issues a board has to deal with the whole meeting and documentation process is another. If we only have a meeting once a month, that is ONLY 12 meetings a year. Documents are approved the next meeting. Which means we are always a month behind. People have a fit if they see board members having a conversation with each other. They think meeting behind their backs. So communications happen at the meetings only if people insist on board members not talking outside of meetings without screaming "crooked".

Sorry, but this subject hits a nerve because reality factor and fantasy. People have a fantasy of how a board should act and document. Many times the information they think exists does not and does not need to. Plus meeting notes are not for draft review. There is a reason why they are not officicial untill ALL agree. Someone might have heard something wrong or it was missing. That then leads to tye witch hunters out there more conspiracy theories to toss out.

So if you have an issue with your HOA.... Stop prowling around for documentation and BS. Address your isue straight on and have a SOLUTION in mind. The board is NOT a solution maker. They only agree to the solution suggested..

Former HOA President
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Is CPA doing audit, review, or compilation? He is always independent, but his level of reliance on what the Board provides to him is different depending on the nature of the engagement.

How long has it been since the draft minutes were prepared? Unlike CA law, PA law is silent on publishing draft documents. So the question becomes: "What is a reasonable length of time for draft minutes to be turned into final minutes?" Ordinarily, minutes are ratified at the next Board meeting. I am not sure that releasing draft information earlier would benefit the HOA members in our case. Our Secretary's draft minutes aren't always that great.

You raised a question about chopping down all trees. I am sure that you have something in your regs that don't allow the Board to take such unilateral and irreversible acts without prior notice and opportunity to object.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In Cali, at least in my HOA are NOT published or put online, etc. IF a H/O makes a written request, our PM will, per CA law, provide a copy of the minutes 30 days after the relevant meeting stamped DRAFT with a date also stamped on them
EricH8 (Virginia)
Posts: 116
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1
In Calif., draft minutes are available for H/Os to review 30 days after they are written. The date and "DRAFT" should be stamped on each page.

Perhaps you have a similar law in OR, Eric.
Indeed, our minutes are usually available in a week, marked "DRAFT". I mentioned meeting minutes in response to an earlier post by NpS. But the other two examples, building inspection and CPA independent review, are actual examples of "will be release when approved". In the case of the CPA review, the board asked the CPA to rewrite a note that was embarrassing for the board. The CPA did the rewriting. Part of the CPA's review is based on asking questions of the board, so I guess the board has the right to revise those answers. But we homeowners don't know for sure what the review originally said or what was revised about it, even by attending the board meeting. I only know what the same note said a year earlier and had pointed it out.
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1
If your so concerned about your HOA then attend the meetings where things are discussed or wait for the official documents.

So if you have an issue with your HOA.... Stop prowling around for documentation and BS. Address your isue straight on and have a SOLUTION in mind.
Melissa,
Be careful not to assume, because when you assume, you make an ass sue you and me, and that would be like suing yourself.
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1

People have a fit if they see board members having a conversation with each other. They think meeting behind their backs. So communications happen at the meetings only if people insist on board members not talking outside of meetings without screaming "crooked".

People have a fantasy of how a board should act and document.
The people in Oregon have a law to enforce their fantasy, ORS 100.420
100.420(1)(a) All meetings of the board of directors of the association of unit owners shall be open to unit owners...
(2) The meeting and notice requirements in this section may not be circumvented by chance or social meetings or by any other means.

Quote:
Posted By NpS

You raised a question about chopping down all trees. I am sure that you have something in your regs that don't allow the Board to take such unilateral and irreversible acts without prior notice and opportunity to object.
Oh I wish.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
NpS

Eric raises an interesting point about an action approved and taken by the BOD before any minutes are approved. Our docs would not prevent the BOD from cutting down trees. Once they approve such, they could do it. What could we do after? Recall them maybe but we cannot put the trees backup.

Something to be said if you do not attend BOD Meetings then you do snooze and lose but that is a bit of cop out. A smart BOD will say you know we are probably going to upset some with an action that cannot be recalled so let us tread carefully and make sure it is common knowledge.

Changing pool hours is one thing and can be undone. Cutting trees is another issue as it cannot be undone.

BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Remember folks not all states require open board meetings. I know that Iowa and New York have no open board meetings requirements. I see that stamping draft on the minutes to be a viable solution. My board will send out draft minutes of the annual meeting but will not send out draft board meeting minutes. And the board only meets quarterly. I have had to wait months for board meeting minutes because of this.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 07/06/2014 1:36 PM
NpS

Eric raises an interesting point about an action approved and taken by the BOD before any minutes are approved. Our docs would not prevent the BOD from cutting down trees. Once they approve such, they could do it. What could we do after? Recall them maybe but we cannot put the trees backup.

Something to be said if you do not attend BOD Meetings then you do snooze and lose but that is a bit of cop out. A smart BOD will say you know we are probably going to upset some with an action that cannot be recalled so let us tread carefully and make sure it is common knowledge.

Changing pool hours is one thing and can be undone. Cutting trees is another issue as it cannot be undone.


We don't have open meeting laws. We don't have minutes distribution laws.

Over the past 3 years, we reduced our entire tree inventory by 20%. We had an Arborist study done. He tagged every tree. We published the study to the community. We had him speak at a meeting we held to explain why we were taking such aggressive action. We generally followed the Arborist's plan, but have modified it as the Board thought was needed. When we decided to take irreversible action on some trees, we identified them by tag number and notified the HOs well in advance. Many ignored the notices and a few came screaming when the trees were coming down. One HO had her kids playing on the deck and then run to surround a particular tree whenever the tree company came near.

We did grant exceptions. And later we reversed those exceptions if the HO didn't agree to take full responsibility for that tree. And later we reversed more exceptions if the tree created risk for a neighboring HO.

The point is that it was an iterative process that was dealt with one tree at a time. As we progressed, our decision making policies got better defined. I don't know how we could have kept up with disclosure requirements that were mandated by law. For what we were trying to do, it would have been way too cumbersome. For example, on any cycle the final removal list could have been 30% different than the original plan.

We did communicate in advance with everyone who raised concerns about any particular tree. But each situation was different and we dealt with the people who were directly affected.

Sometimes rigid rules get in the way of getting stuff done.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.

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