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BillB17 (South Carolina)
Posts: 92
Posted:
I am the President of a South Carolina HOA of approximately 270 single family homes. Our Board holds open meetings every other month where Members can attend and listen to the Board conduct its business. At these meetings we also hold a "members comments" portion to allow all Members to speak to the Board and express questions, concerns and ideas.

We also hold closed Board meetings whenever necessary to conduct the day to day business of our Association. Lately, some members of the association approach me and, in the coarse of conversation, it is obvious they are aware of the discussions the Board has had in the closed meetings. This means that one of our Board Members is telling other Association members the context of the closed Board Meeting discussions.

While control our Association was turned over to the Membership from the Developer four years ago, we are still working through many issues which were left unattended at the time of the transition. We continue to work through things like resolutions, rules and regulations, policies and procedures for committees, etc. Some of this requires discussions and expression of opinions that should not be released to the community. It is my opinion that a Board Members point of view and arguments for or against a proposition should remain confidential.

Minutes of our closed meetings are published and available to the general membership and all actions taken at closed meetings are reported and approved at our open Board Meetings.

Comments and ideas on the subject of confidentiality of discussions at Board Meetings.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
In most places, a closed meeting would be considered an executive session in which matters of a confidential may or may not be discussed, such as litigation, contracts, personnel, discipline and so, not the day to day running of an association. Generally, those minutes are not available to the members.

As you mentioned, the minutes from your "closed meetings" are published and available to the general membership, therefore, the discussions would not be categorized as confidential.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Bill

If not open to members then they are secret meetings. I say this is wrong, improper, and open to wild speculation as to what is happening.

Members should be able to see their directors in their full glory. This is one way to decide if they truly represent you and if you do or do not want to retain them.

I say open up all meetings.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillB17 on 07/01/2014 8:23 PM

It is my opinion that a Board Members point of view and arguments for or against a proposition should remain confidential.

I disagree.

These type of discussions are exactly what the members need to see and hear. This way, they can determine if any one individual is actually representing what they believe should be done which can win or lose votes at the next election.

There are things that should, in my opinion, remain confidential. However, that list is small and things like discussions on rules/regs/policies/procedures should always be done in the open.
AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304
Posted:
In my state, the statutes are very specific about open versus closed meetings. Any Board meeting must be posted 48 hrs in advance. The only time Board meetings are closed is if it concerns pending litigation or legal actions. In any closed Board meeting, that information is not shared with the owners. Even though I understand the rationale for having a closed legal meeting, anyone can go to the county courts and view the records anyway if it is about an open court case.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
The only time Board meetings are closed is if it concerns pending litigation or legal actions. In any closed Board meeting, that information is not shared with the owners.


My town recently got a slap on the wrist from the state's attorney general about this. The town leaders were abusing the executive session (closed meetings) and discussing things that should have been discussed in the open. Tax payers complained to the state and they stepped in.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With others, I strongly agree that discussions among directors about day-to-day operations, rules, etc., should be in open meetings. If open meetings--regular, special, and even mergence and executive sessions aren't discussed in you bylaws, your state corporation codes might talk about them.

Youur closd meetings--exeutive sessions--as others have noted should only be for a very few topic mainly as Richard above mentions.
SallyR3
Posts: 113
Posted:
This is exactly what I'm fighting ... Any member of an HOA should have access to all records and be able to attend all meetings except in extreme cases of litigation, and then even after the meeting, members should at least have a skeleton of information. My Board has a nasty habit of sharing information with spouses who gossip at the pool and then everyone gets angry. Somehow, after decades of practicing in this secret manner they refuse to be transparent.

I found one entry in the minutes where a guest member attended, was asked to leave bc the Executive Session was starting. According to the minutes the Executive session lasted for 5 minutes and then the regular meeting resumed. The guest was not a problem in the community, they were there only to observe. That's setting a pretty dangerous precedent. I am left wondering if the secretary intentionally wrote it up that way to alert members.

My strongest suggestion is to be transparent, follow the CC&Rs and ByLaws as closely as you possibly can. Don't discuss ANY HO with any other community member. Approve projects as quickly as possible and always, always, always communicate directly with the member when there is something of theirs that can't be done and be clear in explaining WHY. last but not least, use the community money wisely. Follow these rules and you will significantly diminish issues.
AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 07/02/2014 6:39 AM
The only time Board meetings are closed is if it concerns pending litigation or legal actions. In any closed Board meeting, that information is not shared with the owners.


My town recently got a slap on the wrist from the state's attorney general about this. The town leaders were abusing the executive session (closed meetings) and discussing things that should have been discussed in the open. Tax payers complained to the state and they stepped in.

Steve, I am sure it happens. I just think the concept to keep owners out of legal meetings is kind of stupid because any owner can march down to the courthouse and ask to see the records on an open case (unless it involves something like child molestation). I can go look at lien cases, enforcement cases, etc if the Board takes legal action in the court system.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Would it help, BillB, to have open meetings every month? Instead of every other month? With 270 homes, you simply might need more open meetings unless your HOA is very uncomplicated.

Do you have a property mgr.(PM)? How many are on your board?

Even with a PM & mgr. asst. & 211 big rise condos, we need a board meeting every month. But we're a fairly complex HOA.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnH5 on 07/02/2014 11:07 AM
I just think the concept to keep owners out of legal meetings is kind of stupid because any owner can march down to the courthouse and ask to see the records on an open case (unless it involves something like child molestation). I can go look at lien cases, enforcement cases, etc if the Board takes legal action in the court system.

What you are looking at are the results of those meetings. The actual discussions on legal matters may involve strategy which you may not want the other side to know until it happens.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Tim is right, Ann. Pending or potential litigation involves all kinds of discussion, advice, etc., that shouldn't be shared with those outside the Board because it might get into the wrong hands.

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

I found one entry in the minutes where a guest member attended, was asked to leave bc the Executive Session was starting. According to the minutes the Executive session lasted for 5 minutes and then the regular meeting resumed. The guest was not a problem in the community, they were there only to observe. That's setting a pretty dangerous precedent. I am left wondering if the secretary intentionally wrote it up that way to alert members.


That sounds like the proper way to start an executive session. I don't see any issue so far. Someone should also be keeping minutes for executive sessions that only the BOD/Officers would have access to. As long as they are discussing proper topics for executive session, I see no issue.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
I would like to expand on that question. What happens to that confidentiality when a board member no longer serves as a board member? What duty does a former board member have to keep those discussions confidential?

Ann is right. Once the courts become involved the case becomes a public record. Anyone can go to the court house and ask to see a particular file. I have actually done that in my own case as the defendant. I found out some things by doing this. Interesting to note was that the association didn't even know my husband's name. The first filing had to be revised because they had the wrong name on the petition and the petition kept referring to us as the plaintiff.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Our Board recently decided to end a 3 year dispute with a HO about removing a tree. Year after year, our Arborist's report said that the tree had to go. The HO objected. This year, the Board decided to move ahead with removal.

The HO sued the HOA about a decade ago. The handwriting is on the wall on where this is going.

In response to our letter stating that the tree would be removed, the HO sent an email blast to the community at large in which she claimed that she was being harassed and victimized. An attorney/homeowner responded with his own email blast in which he questioned the Board's authority and offering his professional assistance.

The Board did not respond publicly. In our private email to the attorney/homeowner, we told him that we embraced him as a member of the community. However, if he was going to ask for any documents, we believed that he owed us the courtesy of letting us know when he was wearing his homeowner hat and when he was wearing his lawyer hat. Our obligations to homeowners are different than our obligations to attorneys. We also asked him to convey certain messages to his new "client" that she couldn't or chose not to comprehend.

Ultimately, the attorney/homeowner informed us that he didn't represent her and told us to stop communicating with him on the tree issue.

Ultimately, we decided to plan for litigation even though there was no direct threat of litigation. While our facts may be different than yours, there are always complexities to take into consideration. I don't think that this is an easy determination for any Board.

On the specific issues raised:
The confidentiality of the relationship does not end when the Board member no longer serves. Like any other confidential relationship, the confidence must be respected regardless of the Board member's subsequent actions.
Spouses are typically covered by D&O insurance for obvious reasons. But the confidentiality is not being respected when spouses talk among themselves openly. The Board members should be put on notice if this is happening.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:

NpS relied: "On the specific issues raised:
The confidentiality of the relationship does not end when the Board member no longer serves. Like any other confidential relationship, the confidence must be respected regardless of the Board member's subsequent actions.
Spouses are typically covered by D&O insurance for obvious reasons. But the confidentiality is not being respected when spouses talk among themselves openly. The Board members should be put on notice if this is happening."

I agree, this confidentiality is forever! Just want to add that our D&O insurance does not cover spouses of directors and directors should NOT share confidential ES matters with their spouses!!

The thought that a couple of our directors' spouses learn confidential material gives me the absolute chills!
SallyR3
Posts: 113
Posted:
WOW ... NpS another response I learned from and respect. How can I get you to take over my Board? ... Let's see, I would have it comprise of you, Tim, Banks and Ann ... That's the team that understands both sides and has real compassion as well as brains and grit!

However, I fail to understand how a HO could sue bc the souse spreads confidential information. Any slander likely wouldn't go outside the community so I don't see how a HO could claim any damages. That's a real hard lawsuit to win. Thoughts please.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:


What is properly kept secret are issues involving individual HOA members; that includes collection activity, people who want hardship rentals (so they can relocate),and other issues that pertain to a single unit.

Other than that, in my view, it might be discussed in the executive session but the residents have a right to know what the Board is doing. If the Board wants something kept secret that is a giant red flag for corruption.

Walt
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
There are, Walter, really good reasons to keep potential litigation confidential. I don't know about FL, but in CA--which is a very homeowner-friendly state--potential litigation is permitted to be discussed in ES only. So your opinion doesn't wash here.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 1,767
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2014 12:31 PM
There are, Walter, really good reasons to keep potential litigation confidential. I don't know about FL, but in CA--which is a very homeowner-friendly state--potential litigation is permitted to be discussed in ES only. So your opinion doesn't wash here.

Kerry

If the Association decides to get into litigation and the cost is, say $30k, should the members know the Association is now considering litigation without revealing the specifics?
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2014 12:31 PM
There are, Walter, really good reasons to keep potential litigation confidential. I don't know about FL, but in CA--which is a very homeowner-friendly state--potential litigation is permitted to be discussed in ES only. So your opinion doesn't wash here.

Litigation between/against whom? If it is between a home owner and the HOA then it should be private. For instance, if a vendor should sue the HOA or vice versa, why should that be secret? Because the Board screwed up and gave the vendor/plaintiff a cause of Action? People have a right to know when the Board screws up.

Walt
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
People, people, I wrote "potential" litigation, which I recall is the exactly wording in the Davis--Stirling legislation. I'll visit davis-stirling.com later to take a look.

The only litigation we'v had here, Walter, was for construction defects and was against our developer. Because that company owns a chunk of of our HOA, they have a permanent seat on our board and their director was very friendly with many H/Os here. We did not disclose to the developer or H/Os' any details of the potential litigation, but it was known that it probably would occur because we recused the "interested" director from all discussion & votes.

The minute the litigation was filed we let all H/Os know and gave them plenty of details.

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