Slip owner wants high dive on community dock

KathyE5 (Missouri)
Posts: 34

Posted:

Hi, all!

I'm president of an HOA that includes water frontage on a large, recreational lake. The lakefront homes all have their own personal docks; the second and third tier homeowners, however, buy slips in a 20-slip community dock.

We have been fortunate to get insurance for the boat dock at about $3,000 per year, a rate that hasn't varied for years.

I now have one property owner, who is joined by two others, wanting to install a high dive of 8- or 10-feet above the waterline. Since the dock is situated about 2 feet above the water that would make the board height from the dock about 6- or 8-feet.

This property owner happens to be an insurance broker. He assured me that if we install the diving board and ladder -- total cost about $2,500, which sounds rather high to me since our dock assessments per slip each year are just $300 and that just covers our expenses. Anyway, I digress. He has assured me that if we install the diving board and someone gets hurt and we DID NOT INFORM our insurance agency that the insurance company is bound by law to not only defend us but to pay any judgment against us.

I didn't think this sounded right and so I contacted the insurance agency who underwrites our directors' insurance and all the other insurance for our development, including our swimming pool, our sewage system and our water system, the latter two items are owned and operated by our development. That agent said that a diving board on a community dock would be an increased risk and hazard and that our insurance company, if not informed of its presence, MIGHT defend us but probably would not pay any claim against us. And he said that the insurance company would not be compelled by law even to defend us.

He compared it to a hardware store that suddenly began stocking dynamite. The store catches fire and the dynamite explodes, totally destroying the store. The insurance company, since it had no foreknowledge of the dynamite in stock, is not bound by law to cover the damages.

My vice-president, who is the guy wanting the diving board, says this isn't true. He says that an insurance policy is a legal binding document and it must be honored -- no matter what we do.

I say, that by not informing the agency of 'increased risk or hazard' that we are making that document null and void.

The agent who has said that I am right further stated that since it is a community dock, and since no one is watching that dock at every minute (as a homeowner with lakefront would be doing, if he were home), then it is also likely that it would attract one of the recreational boaters who frequent this lake, which is party central in the Midwest. That would add to our risk since any wandering boater or swimmer who would attempt to use our diving board would probably be drunk, on drugs, or both.

Now, the vice-president says that this agent is 'wrong or lying.' He wants the diving board, no matter what. I don't want to approach our current insurer because that $3,000 annual premium is $2,000 LESS than what was bid by any other agent or company. The OTHER companies also would have required fencing at the front of the dock, a locked gate at the dock ramp, and some sort of pass-card or padlock system to keep off people who do not belong on the dock. There is no way to keep unwelcome boaters or swimmers off of the dock, although there is a CCTV. The CCTV, however, as it is cannot view the area where the diving board would be installed.

So, what should I do now? This guy is a good vice-president, but I have to find out what is true. How do you suggest that I proceed from here?

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KathyE5 on 06/28/2014 2:25 PM
Hi, all!

I'm president of an HOA that includes water frontage on a large, recreational lake. The lakefront homes all have their own personal docks; the second and third tier homeowners, however, buy slips in a 20-slip community dock.

We have been fortunate to get insurance for the boat dock at about $3,000 per year, a rate that hasn't varied for years.

I now have one property owner, who is joined by two others, wanting to install a high dive of 8- or 10-feet above the waterline. Since the dock is situated about 2 feet above the water that would make the board height from the dock about 6- or 8-feet.

This property owner happens to be an insurance broker. He assured me that if we install the diving board and ladder -- total cost about $2,500, which sounds rather high to me since our dock assessments per slip each year are just $300 and that just covers our expenses. Anyway, I digress. He has assured me that if we install the diving board and someone gets hurt and we DID NOT INFORM our insurance agency that the insurance company is bound by law to not only defend us but to pay any judgment against us.

I didn't think this sounded right and so I contacted the insurance agency who underwrites our directors' insurance and all the other insurance for our development, including our swimming pool, our sewage system and our water system, the latter two items are owned and operated by our development. That agent said that a diving board on a community dock would be an increased risk and hazard and that our insurance company, if not informed of its presence, MIGHT defend us but probably would not pay any claim against us. And he said that the insurance company would not be compelled by law even to defend us.

He compared it to a hardware store that suddenly began stocking dynamite. The store catches fire and the dynamite explodes, totally destroying the store. The insurance company, since it had no foreknowledge of the dynamite in stock, is not bound by law to cover the damages.

My vice-president, who is the guy wanting the diving board, says this isn't true. He says that an insurance policy is a legal binding document and it must be honored -- no matter what we do.

I say, that by not informing the agency of 'increased risk or hazard' that we are making that document null and void.

The agent who has said that I am right further stated that since it is a community dock, and since no one is watching that dock at every minute (as a homeowner with lakefront would be doing, if he were home), then it is also likely that it would attract one of the recreational boaters who frequent this lake, which is party central in the Midwest. That would add to our risk since any wandering boater or swimmer who would attempt to use our diving board would probably be drunk, on drugs, or both.

Now, the vice-president says that this agent is 'wrong or lying.' He wants the diving board, no matter what. I don't want to approach our current insurer because that $3,000 annual premium is $2,000 LESS than what was bid by any other agent or company. The OTHER companies also would have required fencing at the front of the dock, a locked gate at the dock ramp, and some sort of pass-card or padlock system to keep off people who do not belong on the dock. There is no way to keep unwelcome boaters or swimmers off of the dock, although there is a CCTV. The CCTV, however, as it is cannot view the area where the diving board would be installed.

So, what should I do now? This guy is a good vice-president, but I have to find out what is true. How do you suggest that I proceed from here?

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KathyE5 on 06/28/2014 2:25 PM
Hi, all!

I'm president of an HOA that includes water frontage on a large, recreational lake. The lakefront homes all have their own personal docks; the second and third tier homeowners, however, buy slips in a 20-slip community dock.

We have been fortunate to get insurance for the boat dock at about $3,000 per year, a rate that hasn't varied for years.

I now have one property owner, who is joined by two others, wanting to install a high dive of 8- or 10-feet above the waterline. Since the dock is situated about 2 feet above the water that would make the board height from the dock about 6- or 8-feet.

This property owner happens to be an insurance broker. He assured me that if we install the diving board and ladder -- total cost about $2,500, which sounds rather high to me since our dock assessments per slip each year are just $300 and that just covers our expenses. Anyway, I digress. He has assured me that if we install the diving board and someone gets hurt and we DID NOT INFORM our insurance agency that the insurance company is bound by law to not only defend us but to pay any judgment against us.

I didn't think this sounded right and so I contacted the insurance agency who underwrites our directors' insurance and all the other insurance for our development, including our swimming pool, our sewage system and our water system, the latter two items are owned and operated by our development. That agent said that a diving board on a community dock would be an increased risk and hazard and that our insurance company, if not informed of its presence, MIGHT defend us but probably would not pay any claim against us. And he said that the insurance company would not be compelled by law even to defend us.

He compared it to a hardware store that suddenly began stocking dynamite. The store catches fire and the dynamite explodes, totally destroying the store. The insurance company, since it had no foreknowledge of the dynamite in stock, is not bound by law to cover the damages.

My vice-president, who is the guy wanting the diving board, says this isn't true. He says that an insurance policy is a legal binding document and it must be honored -- no matter what we do.

I say, that by not informing the agency of 'increased risk or hazard' that we are making that document null and void.

The agent who has said that I am right further stated that since it is a community dock, and since no one is watching that dock at every minute (as a homeowner with lakefront would be doing, if he were home), then it is also likely that it would attract one of the recreational boaters who frequent this lake, which is party central in the Midwest. That would add to our risk since any wandering boater or swimmer who would attempt to use our diving board would probably be drunk, on drugs, or both.

Now, the vice-president says that this agent is 'wrong or lying.' He wants the diving board, no matter what. I don't want to approach our current insurer because that $3,000 annual premium is $2,000 LESS than what was bid by any other agent or company. The OTHER companies also would have required fencing at the front of the dock, a locked gate at the dock ramp, and some sort of pass-card or padlock system to keep off people who do not belong on the dock. There is no way to keep unwelcome boaters or swimmers off of the dock, although there is a CCTV. The CCTV, however, as it is cannot view the area where the diving board would be installed.

So, what should I do now? This guy is a good vice-president, but I have to find out what is true. How do you suggest that I proceed from here?

Sorry, clicked the "submit" button before I wrote my response.

The decision is not your vice president's nor yours. The decision must be made by the board. If the board votes against the diving board, end of discussion. There will be no diving board.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Do not get the diving board. Remind them that the money the HOA spends is NOT the boards money but EVERY members money. The board is in charge of representing ALL the owners. Which I am sure put up for vote and written proof from the insurance companies of the increasec risk should convince level minded people.

My ex step brother at eight year old climbed over his aunts pool fence. He slipped, hit his head, and fell into the pool. He was under for around 5 minutes before his mother pulled him out. He lived to be 21 years old severely brain damaged and only could move his eyes. Accidents happen and when they do, death is not the only consequence.

This is common area and that means not exclusive use. He has to share with all members. Then I am sure strangers will come by and use it. The liability increasing. Even if he uses his own money it still on the HOA insurance tab. Maybe ya need to push him off a high dive head first with no water under hm to knock some sense into him.

Former HOA President

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

If you are sued, the plaintiffs will be represented by lawyers, not insurance brokers. Your association, as defendant, will also require a lawyer, not an insurance broker. Unless your vice president has some sort of extraordinary professional credentials it is unlikely that the court would recognize him as an expert witness.

Save yourself a lot of grief and obtain a written opinion from your association's lawyer, even though I think you already have a pretty good idea of what he will have to say on this subject.

Since the veep is in the insurance business you might suggest that he, and those others who want the high-dive, post a bond to indemnify the association from lawsuits. Given the potential for serious injury and large damage claims, 100 million would not be an excessive amount for the bond.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/28/2014 4:03 PM

My ex step brother at eight year old climbed over his aunts pool fence. He slipped, hit his head, and fell into the pool. He was under for around 5 minutes before his mother pulled him out. He lived to be 21 years old severely brain damaged and only could move his eyes. Accidents happen and when they do, death is not the only consequence.

This precisely why a pool and diving board are high-risk. Those who are injured while using them tend to be younger with a full life ahead of them. When the jury decides on an award for a seriously injured person, it must estimate how long the person will live, what it will cost to care for him for the rest of his life (including inflation), and how much potential income he has been deprived of. That is why I suggested $100 million as a minimum coverage.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

To add to what Bruce said, simply inform the Board that you checked with the Associations insurance company and there would be an increase in premium (find out what that increase would be).

If your current insurance company won't offer coverage if the board is there, then let them know that as well. All you can do is make sure it's an informed decision the Board is making.

BTW - if the VP says that what you are saying simply isn't true, tell him that he may or may not be right. However, this is how the Associations insurance company would handle such lack of disclosure. You may even want to ask the agent to attend the meeting to answer the Board questions. If the agent shows up, I doubt that the VP will say the agent is lying.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Even if the current ins company was obligated to cover the dock, what happens when you want/need to change insurance companies? They will inspect or at least ask about risks, and you will pay the increased premium then. 30-40 years ago, most home, hotel, and public pools had diving boards. Now, diving boards are rare. This is mainly because of liability and insurance, hopefully the majority of the board will recognize that and vote this down.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

LarryB13 (Arizona)
Posts: 4,099

Posted:

I don't know about the rest of the country but in Phoenix the county health department made a lot of motels and other semi-public pools remove the diving boards. To have a diving board, a pool has to have a certain minimum length (sorry, I do not know what it is) to prevent divers from cracking their heads open when they run into the wall opposite the diving board.

KathyE5 (Missouri)
Posts: 34

Posted:

This thread says it has 14 responses; I can only see one page worth of responses. I don't know what is going on as there is listed no page 2.

KathyE5 (Missouri)
Posts: 34

Posted:

Oops! It was I who had made 14 POSTS! Sorry.

BruceF1 (Connecticut)
Posts: 2,535

Posted:

Now it's 16.

PitA1
Posts: 222

Posted:

South Carolina pool rules:

if a member can have guests said pool would be a class "B" public pool

a diving board requires 9'6" depth + other dimensional specs

a diving board at a "B" pool requires a LIFEGUARD

that is why my HOA removed the dive board and posted the required:

"NO LIFEGUARD / swim at your own risk" signage AND (for liability) NO DIVING signs at the 'deep end' in addition to the required: "SHALLOW WATER / NO DIVING" at both ends of the shallow ends

I have no idea re: a 'private' (open to member's guests from the public) dock

UNLESS YOU CAN GUARANTEE 10' water I would strongly recommend AGAINST the dive board

KathyE5 (Missouri)
Posts: 34

Posted:

The water is probably 30-feet deep where the diving board would be installed. BUT there is always a chance, especially during periods of high water or when lots of debris is in the water, usually when the lake upstream starts dumping water into this lake, that large, submerged yet mobile trees -- sometimes entire dead trees -- could float in and settle against the dock unbeknownst to anyone. So, unless someone would dive in to check, especially each spring when the swimming season gets underway, there is no way to guarantee that there isn't a tree looming just beneath the surface. The tree could easily snag on our dock's cables and be situated just underneath the surface.

I know; I'm a 'Debbie Downer,' but I have to think of everything because no one else is considering anything else but their own personal 'wants.'

PitA1
Posts: 222

Posted:

Private community owned diving boards are lawsuits just waiting to happen.

Not to mention major headaches.

? Maintenance ? or lack thereof ?

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

Quote:

So, what should I do now?

Request for high dive board denied. Next problem?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I agree with everyone else: vote against the diving board.

I'm sure I missed it but is the VP the owner of that dock?

Btw, how many are on your board, Kathy? How many homes are in your HOA?

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

I agree that a diving board is a terrible idea. However, there is another wonderful way to defuse this by including all stake holders in the decision making process. First, draft a proposal. Include the cost of installation, the annual maintenance costs, the lifespan of the diving board, the increased cost in insurance coverage by the current provider, and the pros (if any) and the cons (increased expenses, use of said improvement by non-owners, environmental risks that are beyond the control of the owners, etc). Then send out the proposal and obtain a consensus vote from the owners. I recommend following this process any time there is a proposal to add a new amenity.

PitA1
Posts: 222

Posted:

! BEAUTIFUL !

PitA1
Posts: 222

Posted:

?? then bill the 'proposer' for the postage if/when voted down ?? !!

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

No (although that would also be a nice lesson) ;)

PitA1
Posts: 222

Posted:

KathyE5 (Missouri)
Posts: 34

Posted:

I cannot believe how helpful everyone has been on this site. You have given me some very good ideas -- and strategies -- for dealing with this problem.

Thank you, so very much!

Kathy

GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491

Posted:

Kathy one more thing you might look into, contact the city / county or dept of lakes and waters that has jurisdiction and see if there are any ordinances that must be complied with in order to have a diving board on a community dock. Just because there might be other diving boards around the lake does not mean that all are allowed, the law might have changed and they are grandfathered in. Like a local Arby's near here, the city changed the sign ordinances to require smaller more discrete signage, well they tore down the old Arby's and built a brand spanking new one but as long as they maintain their 80's era sign that is three time bigger than anyone else's, they have to allow it.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions

AnnH5 (Florida)
Posts: 304

Posted:

That is also a good point and something that could be on the list of pros and cons- does there need to be any variances granted so that the community can even install the diving board?