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KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
My wife and I were having a discussion and I made a comment that she disagreed with so I thought I would post the debate to see what everyone else thought.

I believe that if a property owner owns a property that is unencumbered by any other restrictive covenants, they could place a restrictive covenant on their own property. For example, if I own a property and want to create a covenant that says "No fences," I would file the appropriate paperwork, and then my house would no longer be allowed to have fences.

My wife on the other hand believes covenants and restrictions to be an agreement between multiple parties and that you cannot place a restriction on yourself.

Thoughts?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Well can you both be right? Kind of sorta are... See a HOA is formed by a developer who buys for example 100 lots or acres. They file the restrictions of use for those 100 lots. So it is 1 owner but with 100 lots... That could be another scenerio. Which makes you both right...

Former HOA President
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
No you wouldn't sue yourself, but your neighbor might. If you add no fences to your deed and then you put up a fence and your neighbor doesn't like it, they can sue you for not following the deed restrictions.

PS. A fence restriction might also outlaw all pools in the future and insurance companies require fences for pools.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I am not nor do I play a lawyer.

If memory serves me correctly, I seem to remember there is a way an owner can put deed restrictions on their own property such as no fences. When one bought the property they would have to agree to the deed restrictions much like an HOA buyer does.

I also assume the original owner could remove the deed restrictions prior to sale.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
HOA deed restrictions generally allow for changes if agreed by a certain percentage of owners. In the case of a single lot deed restriction, the new owner would compromise 100% of the owners, so I would think they could change or remove the restriction.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
But why record a restriction, then remove it, then record it again before you sell it. Madness I tell ya.
CarolR11 (Colorado)
Posts: 2,563
Posted:
Many years ago my husband and I bought a small home in the "tree section" of Manhattan Beach, CA.

We learned of a restriction on the deed before we closed escrow. There were four small oleander trees on the property at the curb at the street (no sidewalks then). The restriction was that we were to to remove them. The further rule was that the previous owners could come to the curb and water the trees (had an easement?). My word usage is incorrect, but, anyway, we never saw the previous owners.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
My thoughts were more of creating a restrictive covenant as a safeguard. My neighborhood started out as a voluntary association and then grew over the years before the C&Rs expired. Before they expired the board was pushing for creating even more restrictive covenants and stricter controls, such as establishing an ARC. These measures were voted on years ago but failed every time they came up. This new board has decided they don't need a vote and have even insisted county code enforcement would enforce their C&Rs. In a period between expiration and potential revitalization, one could essentially get 100% of the effected homeowners (1 lot) to sign a new set of restrictive covenants essentially protecting the property, which in Florida would essentially be 30 years until preservation was required.

This covenant would then supersede any future covenants unless the property owner decided to remove the covenant.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
I duno. Off the top of my head..... if the other guys did somehow renew the association they would be the master association and your association, of 1 house, would be a sub association. So I dont know how that scenario would help you.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
There is no law that says you cant be in multiple associations.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 06/13/2014 4:30 PM
I duno. Off the top of my head..... if the other guys did somehow renew the association they would be the master association and your association, of 1 house, would be a sub association. So I dont know how that scenario would help you.

Why would the renewed association become the master association? There is no such thing as renewal in Iowa once the association fails to renew on time. It would require starting over and every homeowner would have to approve thus making it a voluntary association. Just for discussion purposes can I form my own association of one home and the rest of the subdivision have their own association excluding me? I think that would be mighty interesting.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:

Why would the renewed association become the master association?

To stay on topic, i dont know how or why they would get it renewed. Legal loophole? Who knows..... Its not the point.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Just for discussion purposes can I form my own association of one home and the rest of the subdivision have their own association excluding me? I think that would be mighty interesting.


Sure, you can do it, but you would still be in the other association. Doesn't make sense to do so.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Let us not go into Kevin's often posted issue about associations, master, dropping out of an association, the association does not cover him, ad nauseam.

Let us confine this to his OP.

Can a single lot owner put Covenants/Deed Restrictions on his lot/property?

Thanks.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I don't think revitalization would automatically establish the HOA as a master association.

In my opinion, say I were to create a covenant stating that the property would not be subject to any other covenants or restrictions and cannot be forced into mandatory membership into a homeowners association, and then the HOA revitalizes their covenants and try to enforce mandatory membership, I would believe the single lot covenant to trump theirs because it was technically filed first.

Of course, I don't think that would stop them from pursuing legal action but I think their odds of victory would be slim. It would be like me joining a HOA then creating my own covenants invalidating their legal covenants.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/13/2014 3:59 PM
My thoughts were more of creating a restrictive covenant as a safeguard. My neighborhood started out as a voluntary association and then grew over the years before the C&Rs expired. Before they expired the board was pushing for creating even more restrictive covenants and stricter controls, such as establishing an ARC. These measures were voted on years ago but failed every time they came up. This new board has decided they don't need a vote and have even insisted county code enforcement would enforce their C&Rs. In a period between expiration and potential revitalization, one could essentially get 100% of the effected homeowners (1 lot) to sign a new set of restrictive covenants essentially protecting the property, which in Florida would essentially be 30 years until preservation was required.

This covenant would then supersede any future covenants unless the property owner decided to remove the covenant.

Hmmm. I find this very interesting. Glad you brought it up. Now my wheels are turning. I may have to check into this for Iowa...
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Kevin

Can we assume you will be living in this home for the rest of your life? The reason I ask, is what buyer would want to take on all this crap?

BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 06/13/2014 5:07 PM
Just for discussion purposes can I form my own association of one home and the rest of the subdivision have their own association excluding me? I think that would be mighty interesting.


Sure, you can do it, but you would still be in the other association. Doesn't make sense to do so.

For the same reasons Kevin states, to not be forced into mandatory membership in their HOA.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
I would leave the option up to any potential buyer. Here in Florida I know of many people who actively seek out HOA-free homes but have a difficult time finding one. I was thinking this has the potential of filling a niche market. Worst case is I sell and get out and leave the future homeowner to choose. I do plan on living in this property for a while - it is been in my family for nearly 30 years.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BanksS on 06/13/2014 5:13 PM
Posted By KevinK7 on 06/13/2014 3:59 PM
My thoughts were more of creating a restrictive covenant as a safeguard. My neighborhood started out as a voluntary association and then grew over the years before the C&Rs expired. Before they expired the board was pushing for creating even more restrictive covenants and stricter controls, such as establishing an ARC. These measures were voted on years ago but failed every time they came up. This new board has decided they don't need a vote and have even insisted county code enforcement would enforce their C&Rs. In a period between expiration and potential revitalization, one could essentially get 100% of the effected homeowners (1 lot) to sign a new set of restrictive covenants essentially protecting the property, which in Florida would essentially be 30 years until preservation was required.

This covenant would then supersede any future covenants unless the property owner decided to remove the covenant.


Hmmm. I find this very interesting. Glad you brought it up. Now my wheels are turning. I may have to check into this for Iowa...

After reviewing all the tricks my neighborhood conducted I thought using the law and establishing my own micro-HOA would be the most defensible.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
After reviewing all the tricks my neighborhood conducted I thought using the law and establishing my own micro-HOA would be the most defensible.

But a new micro-HOA isn't the same as your old HOA. Its just a new micro-HOA.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Kevin,

From my understanding, this occurs often with commercial property.

For example: A hardware store moves down the street to a bigger property. They then place a deed restriction on the previous property that the property may not be used to sell hardware for x years. This is done to ensure competition doesn't come into the area.

Here are a few articles of interest:

“You Can’t Do That!” from an attorney's site.

How deed restrictions block the competition. Talks about a concert venue being sold but can't be sold to be a concert venue, from San Antonio, TX.

PRIVATE LAND USE REGULATIONS: DEED RESTRICTIONS Mainly focuses on TX. Fairly interesting if you have the time to read the 30 page document.

KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 06/14/2014 9:37 AM
Kevin,

From my understanding, this occurs often with commercial property.

For example: A hardware store moves down the street to a bigger property. They then place a deed restriction on the previous property that the property may not be used to sell hardware for x years. This is done to ensure competition doesn't come into the area.

Here are a few articles of interest:

“You Can’t Do That!” from an attorney's site.

How deed restrictions block the competition. Talks about a concert venue being sold but can't be sold to be a concert venue, from San Antonio, TX.

PRIVATE LAND USE REGULATIONS: DEED RESTRICTIONS Mainly focuses on TX. Fairly interesting if you have the time to read the 30 page document.


This was actually done in my neighborhood 40 years ago. Before the subdivisions were developed one of the restrictions placed on the properties from the previous owner was that a wax museum could not be built.

A wax museum!!!

I suspected that owner owned and operated a wax museum in the area and did not want competition.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
If a previous covenant is revitalized, won't that previous covenant be older than your new covenant and therefore supersede your newer covenant?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Perhaps. More likely it's in addition to.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 06/14/2014 12:00 PM
Perhaps. More likely it's in addition to.

I agree, but the two covenants would be in conflict, so a judge may have to decide which covenant came first. Kevin makes the argument that his new covenant would supersede future covenants, but I think a revitalized covenant would likely be considered the older one that would prevail.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
You're welcome to go ahead and try that through the courts.

Let us know how it turns out.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
but I think a revitalized covenant would likely be considered the older one that would prevail.


Thats what I was trying to say, but Jeff said it clearer. I agree, a revitalized covenant would be older.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 06/14/2014 1:19 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 06/14/2014 12:00 PM
Perhaps. More likely it's in addition to.

I agree, but the two covenants would be in conflict, so a judge may have to decide which covenant came first. Kevin makes the argument that his new covenant would supersede future covenants, but I think a revitalized covenant would likely be considered the older one that would prevail.

That is a very good question and one that would be very interesting to see in court.

I can understand the argument that revitalized covenants may be older and therefor take precedence, but I can also see my argument - that the original covenants expired and the effected property owners have the option to either exist with no covenants, revitalize their old covenants, or create new covenants.

Why I would see my single lot covenant to supersede revitalized covenants is that while the covenants expired, the law provides HOAs and communities with deed restrictions a method to revitalize their expired covenants. My understanding is that the expired covenants are different then the revitalized ones, meaning while the original ones may be from the 70s, the clock would start over with the new set, and that is because the revitalized covenants are not extensions - preserved covenants would serve that purpose. The law in Florida places guidelines on revitalized covenants, such as they cannot be more restrictive than the original or they can include less affected properties than the original. The process requires the a certain number of homeowners to initiate the process of revitalization, draft new and similar to the original covenants, and then once those covenants are delivered to all the property owners, they are voted upon. Revitalization just sets a lower threshold to be met to pass the new set of covenants. My covenant would require 100% approval and would run with the land for 30 years, in which it would require a notice of preservation or then expire.

If my neighbors decided to revitalize the original covenants they would have to draft new ones anyway being that my original covenants contain many provisions that are outdated and invalid, such as no clotheslines, satellite dishes, or people under the age of 55. They would also be screwed because of how the neighborhood was developed. The C&Rs were written in the 70s and the neighborhood was built but sometime in the 80s there was some kind of agreement made between a clubhouse and another developer to where that clubhouse would somehow become the HOA - not a covenant binding to the deeds of the property owners. There is no reference to the clubhouse or anything in the original covenants and restrictions. There are just a bunch of negative covenants (no fences, no satellite dishes, no clotheslines). If the HOA were to revitalize, they would box themselves into a corner, although I doubt that would prevent them from trying to impose their assessments and fines on everyone again. They are one huge liability.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
some kind of agreement made between a clubhouse and another developer to where that clubhouse would somehow become the HOA - not a covenant binding to the deeds of the property owners.


Wait.... you have common areas (common ownership of property)? This opens up a new can of worms. You should be worring about what the HOA is going to do with the common areas after the CCR expire. What else is a common area? Roads? A judge can force a renewal if you have common areas that everyone uses but people refuse to maintain, such as roads.

Quote:
There is no reference to the clubhouse or anything in the original covenants and restrictions.


Doesn't need to be. CCR/Bylaws/Deeds do not need to list item, by item, the HOA assets.
BanksS
Posts: 403
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 06/15/2014 10:27 AM
some kind of agreement made between a clubhouse and another developer to where that clubhouse would somehow become the HOA - not a covenant binding to the deeds of the property owners.


Wait.... you have common areas (common ownership of property)? This opens up a new can of worms. You should be worring about what the HOA is going to do with the common areas after the CCR expire. What else is a common area? Roads? A judge can force a renewal if you have common areas that everyone uses but people refuse to maintain, such as roads.

Quote:
There is no reference to the clubhouse or anything in the original covenants and restrictions.


Doesn't need to be. CCR/Bylaws/Deeds do not need to list item, by item, the HOA assets.

Steve,

There was an interesting case a few years back in Iowa titled Chipman Homeowners Association vs. Carney. It has to do with CC&R expiration and the HOA's rights to collect assessments. The court ruled that assessments can not be collected because the CC&Rs were not renewed properly. It's an interesting case which I have discussed on this forum before and it has to do with road maintenance fees. And you are so right, it opens up a big can of worms.
KevinK7 (Florida)
Posts: 1,343
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 06/15/2014 10:27 AM
some kind of agreement made between a clubhouse and another developer to where that clubhouse would somehow become the HOA - not a covenant binding to the deeds of the property owners.


Wait.... you have common areas (common ownership of property)? This opens up a new can of worms. You should be worring about what the HOA is going to do with the common areas after the CCR expire. What else is a common area? Roads? A judge can force a renewal if you have common areas that everyone uses but people refuse to maintain, such as roads.

Quote:
There is no reference to the clubhouse or anything in the original covenants and restrictions.


Doesn't need to be. CCR/Bylaws/Deeds do not need to list item, by item, the HOA assets.

There are common areas... sort of not really.

The situation is a little complex. The easiest way I can put it is that the original developer sold and merged with another organization. There was a Declaration of Release of Restrictions from the original 1978 C&Rs filed in 1980. The second set of covenants filed in 1981 omitted any and all reference to a HOA and consisted of just negative restrictions. Part of the sale agreement was that the second developer would eventually build a clubhouse that would then be transferred to an association of homeowners of the neighborhood - not an association of the neighborhood. Essentially, what would become the "HOA" was just a club that restricted membership to property owners of the neighborhood. It wasn't until 2001 when they decided they wanted to force people into paying that they amended their C&Rs to make themselves the real HOA.

The original property owners released the properties of the original covenants that permitted an association and replaced it with covenants that just restricted certain things, with a new developer promising to build a clubhouse. The only thing the new C&Rs conferred to itself or its successors was the ability to install sprinklers on a homeowner's lot.

And if you were to use the argument that since they amended the documents in 2001 then they were all official, the amendment was passed with a simple majority even though the C&Rs called for a 2/3rds approval. But that doesn't matter because MRTA has the effect of erasing it all. Now the clubhouse can only be what it originally was - a voluntary club for the neighborhood, like a YMCA.

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