Covenant Violations

OK, this question is aimed not so much at board members and volunteers, but at the others who frequent this forum; the agrieved homeowners, the ones complaining about their HOA, etc.

You received a copy of the covenants before or at the time of purchase of your home. You may have received a copy of the "overview" of the covenants from the welcoming committiee. In any event, the four page covenant overview was mailed to you and your neighbors with the newsletter four months ago along with the dues notice. Among the covenants; Trash, garbage, leaves, grass clippings, brush, and/or lawn debris may not be put curbside for collection until the morning of the schedulled (city) collection date. This happens to be Thursday for our community.

What goes through your mind as you stroll to the curb with a pile of brush or a few bags of grass clippings on Monday afternoon that are destined to remain in plain view until sometime Thursday?

Did you "forget" even though this is a weekly chore?
Did you figure nobody would mind?
Perhaps nobody will report it and the ACC or board members won't notice?
Or the HOA will figure it's not worth making a big deal over it?
Or that they won't bother to send a violation notice?
Perhaps you feel there's nothing they can do to you?
Are you trying to make a statement or prove a point?
Are you "above" the HOA and don't have to answer to anyone?

Help me out folks, please. What are you thinking?

I'm VP of the board. They got a copy when they purchased the property. They might not have read it, but they got it. I got a copy of the overview from the welcoming committee. It's possible that some individuals did not. It's not possible that they don't know this is a community governed by covenants. There is a sign at the entrance that they pass everytime they enter. Oh, and the overview is on our website for anyone to see and print.

I included the "overview" in the mailing that include the dues notice and the newsletter. How could they "not get my mail"? They paid their dues, they got the mail.

One of the recent violators is the same person who handed me the overview two years ago when I moved in! A former ACC member.

Ron,
-First, calm down.
-Second, are your rules so exacting that residents cannot put out trash, debris, etc. the night (Wed.) prior to pickup day on Thursday?
-Third, for those who will not be able to put out the night prior.. or morning of.. suggest they ask a neighbor to help and put it out in the resident's absence.
-Fourth, for others (who have no neighbor to help),suggest they alert the Board & have one of the Board members assist by putting out their trash for them as long as its accessible. (side or rear of the unit).

Change the mindset and look for a positive solution together.

RonW:
to quote Dr. Phil, "do you want to be right? or do you want a solution?"

Paul, I want a solution. That's why I want to know why people ignore the covenants so that we can find a way to change their behavior.

It's not difficult to abide by the covenants, most homeowners never violate them. 10% do so on a regular basis.

The covenants do require that trash be put out no earlier than the morning of the schedulled collection. And it's not just the trash, there are some other covenants that are routinely ignored by a few of the homeowners.

As for asking a neighbor, well I do that and I didn't need the BOD to suggest it, I thought of it all by myself.

As for the board members setting out homeowners trash, are you serious? Should we mow their lawns for them also? Paint their houses?

We are not their parents or their caretakers, we are volunteers giving our time to our communities. One of the responsibilities of living in a HOA community is following the covenants.

Paul, like Ron, we have the same issues in our community. We have tried the notification process, the community walks to explain the covenants and how we can help to comply with little success. Like Ron, we also have the same people that continually violate the covenants regardless of having to pay legal costs associated with trying to bring them to compliance. These people simply do not care, it is not important to them.

Our board has recently sent out two community wide notices about compliance with trash rules and the effects it has on property value and neighbors who have to pick up when its not secured. We still had bags out this morning but I only saw one house that might not be as secure as it could have.

Also, the guy who has stored his trash cans in view of the street for the past 3 years has finally put them in his garage. Last summer the guy who left his trash out all week finally started storing it in his garage until trash day. The guy next to me has also started taking his trash cans in the day its collected. Its not perfection yet but it is an improvement.

I work with a lot of training and continuing education programs in a heavily regulated industry. First you outline the rules and there's a lot of them. Believe it or not too many for even adults to remember them all. So periodically, reinforcing the basics is required until it is engrained . . .

PaulM, I wholeheartedly agree with Ron on this subject. We've tried the direct verbal approach numberous times and all we gets is a bunch of lame excuses. IE - What I'm I supposed to do with the clippings? Take them back to the back yard for storage over the weekend and then tote them back to the street on the eve of trash day? No. that's too much trouble. Brother we've heard all the lazy excuses from these violators. Folks are going to continue to trash the appearance of the neighborhood unless we continue to bring them through DUE PROCESS and assess them with charges. We even have people in the community that are routinely toting their trash to other streets, so as to not draw the blame or attention to themselves. Of course, then this gets an innocent neighbor in trouble. I firmly believe that if it isn't in writting, then it didn't happen and if we just try to be fair, firm, and consistant, that this problem will eventually go away.

They only see it through their own eyes. The typical homeowner thinks "their" violation should be overlooked because their's is a special case. The violators are fully aware of what they are doing. They are just like children, always pushing the limits. They are trying to control things and this is one way they feel like they have some independence. There is probably some other part of their lives that is out of control. Don't be suckered into feeling sorry for them. They are adults now and they are responsible for their actions.

Usually the feeling that I get around here from people breaking minor rules(which are many) are:

Who cares if my trash is out in front a day or two early?

What are 'they' (who are undefined) going to do about it anyway?

It's only a trash bag/ brush pile/ dog feces, what should I do with it in the meantime?

If someone says something then I'll pick it up.

Everyone else is doing it, are 'they' going to tell all of us to stop?

So and so is breaking another rule that is more major than mine and they don't say anything, why should my pile of rubble be any worse, it'll be gone in a week anyway?

It's only a one time thing, I cleaned my yard..

Personally I think unless you've got a watchdog with a ticket book that provides immediate incentive not to do these things then people are going to continue to do them. And if you did have a ticket book then you'd probably have an uproar and be voted out. Are you really going to be able to spend time and resources to stop someone putting out their trash barrel a day early? I guess you could send warning letters but what if they have a legitimate reason for it? Worth your time and effort to even listen to it? Enforcement is another tough issue, spend homeowners money on fixing the pool or making sure mr. x cuts his lawn on time.

I'll have to say that I totally agree with you as our neighborhood is riddled with these things and yes, they are an eyesore at times but this isn't Disney either and you can't expect perfection. You might be able to go after repeat offenders that do the same thing week after week but what about the intermittent stuff, the one-offs? Are you going to take the time to send a letter each time something is out of whack? usually by the time the letter or warning is received the infraction is long gone anyway.

Hope that helps with the mindset a little bit.

Good luck!

Ron: I don't think its unreasonable to allow a unit owner to put out trash/debris the afternoon prior to pickup. We allow trash to be put out the evening prior to pickup the next day. We never know what time the trash truck will come by, sometimes very early and sometimes later in the day.
Maybe your Board could be a little more flexible on this one?

Ron: does your covenant doc actually dictate 'when' the trash is to be put out? Its difficult to believe the coveant doc would actually state a day of the week since it is likely trash pickup day could change according to the company's schedule.

Rather than changing the covenant w/member vote, could a 'rule' be imposed by the Board...for your convenience trash can be placed at the curb the evening prior to trash day pickup...

What a thread.
Dr. Phil says: "It's not about the (trash)"

A suggestion. If you got any teenagers around, hire a couple to go around and pick up illegal trash bags. Pay them $5.00 a bag, put them all in an out of sight location and instruct Trash service to always check that area. At the time of monthly bills access offenders and extra $10.00/ bag. This could be handled under Rules so no action is required other than to Notify owners what your intentions are. As soon as violators find out THEY can pay teenagers $5.00/bag to put out bags at correct time, they will either stop the practice or be glad of the service. Might work for Trash bags only.

They (the CC&Rs) are strict and as I posted, we are considering an ammendment that would relax them somewhat. Also relaxed woulfd be the time to bring the empty cans in.

On the other hand, these covenants have been in place since the first lot was sold in 1989 so there's no good reason to ignore them if they're not convenient.

And again for everyone, there are no "rules", just CC&Rs. As such, they are not easy to change.

Ron:

I understand CC&R's are hard to change. I think it would be ok to leave them as is if the board understood that 6:00 pm may turn to 10:00 pm. Trash is tricky, one problem with our neighborhood is we have three different vendors who pick up trash so it is an all week problem. We tried to pursue one vendor, we thought better of it after the uprising.

We have city pickup. I would hate to see trash placed out three days a week. And if it is permitted to be put out the day before that would be six days a week.

The 6:00PM part is not really being enforced but that in itself could be a problem. A resident who is cited for putting trash out early could argue that the covenants are not being enforced evenly and fairly. The proposed ammendment will also allow a later time to bring in the containers.

We have to remember that we can't just abide by the covenants because they are convenient. These covenants were in place when each member bought his/her lot. I sometimes have to ask a neighbor to put my trash out or bring in the empty container if I will be away. And of course, I do it for them.

We're talking trash here but it could be boats and trailers, junked cars, half finished building projects, etc. Where do we draw the line?

Ronald,
You give one side of the story and are more right than wrong. However, not sure we can make Laws that encompass all kinds of people and personal agendas. But the ability of a well run Board to be flexible is a huge advantage, not so for a poorly run Board. I was hoping to find out if anyone is SC has any knowledge of The State decreeing the Rules of Conduct in a HOA or Condo Assoc CC&R's can be changed solely on Board's desires and as often as they wish.
Believe me, you can not just pick up the phone and Call State Condo information. The wrote the law and I believe they are now in hiding or maybe disbanded the whole issue.

Reply to Ron,
The URL you sent discribes the Horizontal Property Act of South Carolina and it is our Senior Authority for the State for condos. It has been amended many times and all the Documents are on file at the Public Library. We are also a non-profit corporation under the the corporation act of S.C. I also have copies of the Declaration and Master Deed, the By Laws and numerous copies of different Rules of Conduct. I have found no single source for obtaining information about any of this when you cannot find the answer in the written Documents. I am sure there are changes made over the years to all of them.
But don't look for an offical state office or Phone # in S.C. We have no Ombudsman or anything like that. I have gone down from the Governors office and I keep hearing, that is not my department, etc, etc, etc, and end with maybe you should hire a lawyer. Hence my question? Does anyone know anything about condo Law in S.C. that allows for the Board to make changes in the Rules of Conduct without abiding by the CC&R's which states the Rules of Conduct is under the Master Deed and By-laws and requires an ammendum for change.
Maybe a source I can go to for answers. Thank you.

Ron,
I won't bore you with details about Lawyers. Suffice to say when you choose this route you make a committment that a lot of people don't want to make. This act sets you and the Board as adversaries and then the neighbors take sides and the bell rings for round one. My purpose is to try and make my case with enough overwhelming written evidence the Board has to admit responsibility for the shortcomings. One problem is trying to find an authoritrative voice in our public offices. Someone with enough authority and interest to know what the Laws are as applied to our CC&R's. If the Board will admit the problems, then, they will have to correct or amend as necessary if official pressure is applied. Of course I realize the Board is not going to like being forced to undo what they have condoned, and in the scheme of my life, at this timee, I gain nothing in the end. But, as I have contributed to the pleasure our owners realize over the past 17 years and donated untold hours to this Regime I am satisfied it is better in ssome ways because of my efforts and that is deep satisfaction. I am labeld correctly when the board calls me stubborn and worse, many times with cause. In the end and my time here is short I can say I took the route that will cause the Regime less pain. No, I can't walk on water and all that good stuff, I am just another crabby old man that likes to make waves, and that is my fate.

OK, When I first read Robert's post I thought he was a board member looking for information on SC condo law. When he replied that he couldn't find the information he needed, I suggested that he contact his association's attorney. Up until that time, I didn't realize that he was actually a disgruntled owner questioning the actions and authority of his BOD.

Still, if the answers to legal questions are not readily available to a lay person, an attorney is really the only way to get the information.

Anyone have a better suggestion?

Ron,
If you are going to get a lawyer be careful who you get. Part of my issues have to do with the effect of the Association ignoring many owners obtaining second home mortgages to get a better interest rate. But when you attach to the mortgage a Second Home Rider for a condominium the rider adds a clause that you cannot turn your property to anothers control and you cannot rent the property through any rental pool, such as a rental business, and I would assume that would include newpaper advertizing, renting through any rental site on the internet, or have your property managed by one of a ton of Real Estate offices that are available. In addition, when you rent, loan, sell, rent, or just let your friend use your place, that is considered a rental under our CC&R's, and you have to assigned your owners right over to your tenant, which to me violates the clause I mentioned above in the second home Rider. Second home riders have a valid place in condo living, but when your purpose of obtaining a second home rider is to rent the property, receive some high rental income and until recently could expect appreciation (significant), on the property and then you could sell the property before those interest only loan start charging you high home monthly paymentts. This is common practice throughout the land and occupancy fraud is tje highest peercentage among all Mortgage Fraud. I don't feel it will be productive to argue about this here as this is a tough nut to crack. I equate lenders taht deal on the internet just copycat "Savings and Loans" that got hit in the late eighties and early nineties. Seen any aeticles about increase in forclosures and Home sales downturn and Mortgage Fraud in the news lately.
I'll tell you what Ron, if you don't call me "disgruntled", I won't call you a "Mushroom Farmer." Have a great night everyone, tomorrow will bring new stuff down the river.

Ron,
Good morning. I have no desire to argue with you. I don't have to log unto to this site. So good luck in all your efforts to fulfill your somewhat depleted self image. You have questioned my credibility and my knowwledge. I believe I understand why.

A fond farewell to all the members I have come to respect on this site, with special thanks to Paul and Roger, this is a valuable site and well run, I enjoyed my time here.

We do not have the authority to modify covenants. We must take a vote and record the results (all the signatures, we cannot "verify" the results ourselves. The covenants wer in place when everyone bought their lots, nothing has changed. Even though the city may change the pickup days from time to time, our covenant specifies "the day of collection", thus, any change would be for the convienience of the members. This is to be balanced with keeping the neighborhood nice looking without trash piles for most of the week.